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Thread: Punishing Thieves

  1. #161

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Played in a ~50 man tournament. It was a free tournament so it only paid to top 8, 6 rounds. I went 3-3, beating DnT, Infect, and Miracles and losing to Grixis Delver, Show and Tell, and Burn

    Deck felt great against infect and DnT, and good against miracles. Back to Basics is scary from them but otherwise I feel that everything else can be easily answered.

    Show and Tell match up felt bad but not unwinnable. Definitely misplayed by not leaving a strix back when my opp has a active sneak attack. He was hellbent and the attack gave me lethal next turn but I easily could have just played it safe.

    Burn feels unwinnable. PoP is so good against the mana base, and the only life gain in the 75 is Pulse. Not too worried about the matchup tho since its such a niche matchup.

    Grixis delver actually seems like a good matchup, definitely misplayed a bunch just need practice. TNN specifically seems problematic but I cant imagine adding any other cards to help that we dont already have (deluge, edicts, etc)

    Deck was fun and pretty good, probably could have went 5-1 if i was more comfortable on it but this was my first time playing it paper. Ill edit my decklist in later if I remember but I ended up running 22 lands mb, pulse side, and 2 flusters instead of hymn. After my limited testing i still want to work on the show and tell matchup


    // 60 Maindeck
    // 1 Artifact
    1 Nihil Spellbomb


    // 8 Creature
    4 Baleful Strix
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest


    // 16 Instant
    2 Assassin's Trophy
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Fatal Push
    4 Force of Will
    1 Kolaghan's Command
    3 Punishing Fire


    // 22 Land
    1 Badlands
    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    2 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Swamp
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Bayou


    // 5 Planeswalker
    3 Dack Fayden
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


    // 8 Sorcery
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Ponder
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge


    // 15 Sideboard
    1 Notion Thief
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Pulse of Murasa
    2 Pyroblast
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 To the Slaughter
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Rise // Fall

    Changes from last time were in the sideboard, -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 Hymn to Tourach for +1 Surgical (3 total) and +2 Flusterstorms. I felt the hymns were too mana intensive and the decays werent necessary based on what I was seeing around the room (mostly creature decks or non-permanent based decks). Also knew a few storm players and other combo players in the room

    After thinking it over a bit, I think the deck needs some faster way to close out games. The games I lost I actually usually stabalized in but was unable to close out games fast enough. I don't think Gurmag Angler is right, but I'm going to start with him atleast. I ideally want a token generator that isn't a creature itself so that our opponent's removal is less good. Maybe a planeswalker or enchantment. I'd even like lingering souls but going 5c for that seems loose.

    Also, maybe Leovold just isn't the best in the matchups I personally played against, but I wasn't impressed by him. He doesn't combo well with Dack Fayden, and just overall feels low synergy with the deck. He's just a random good card thrown in that further increases our reliance on green. Highly considering just swapping him out to Notion Thief, for 1 main 1 side.
    Last edited by PotatoSol; 01-28-2019 at 10:12 AM.

  2. #162

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I'm glad you had fun at your tournament.

    I'll agree that the burn matchup is basically unwinnable. If you are walking into a room full of burn and cloudpost the deck needs a serious overhaul, it's probably better to play something else.

    Regarding Sneak and Show: the matchup will be much harder without discard, which is part of why hymn (rise//fall) is so important. I think not having additional discard to play against the combo decks is a mistake, because game ones are really tilted in their favor due to all of the dead cards we have.

    I agree with you that hymn is very mana intensive, which is why I've switched back to Rise//Fall which does a good hymn impression in the combo matchups and has a lot of value in the Rise half against Delver, grindy strategies, and depths.

    The main problem I hear people having with the deck is closing speed, but I simply haven't found the best answer to that question yet, I haven't been impressed by gurmag angler, and the curve is probably too clunky to add another expensive spell. I've tried Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the past, and it was amazing pre-DRS ban, but I haven't played with it much since.

    Leovold is there in part because it gives extra game against a lot of the matchups that are hard in game one. It doesn't have the greatest synergy, but it is so strong against blue combo and punishing fire that I want to personally keep him around. He is also our fastest clock. Maybe this is the slot to look at changing to increase the clock if you don't like him.

    I will also say that while I can recognize the deck's glacial pace, I haven't found myself needing a faster clock in matchups that aren't just terrible. What I mean by this is if it's not burn or post, the clock the deck presents is fast enough. This could just be from me having a ton of experience with the deck though. If you find that the deck get's much better when you add a couple of quick closers let me know so that I know what you're trying; I'm very interested.

  3. #163

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Going to be at scg balt. Going to test cutting 1 Baleful Strix, 1 Leovold, and 1 Fatal Push from the mainboard for probably 3 true-name nemesis. Tnn can wall most push targets or out race them, and punishing fire can deal with most of the utility creatures. Cutting 1 baleful might be wrong, but I don't know what else to try cutting.

    Going to be doing side events saturday and the classic sunday most likely.

    I might make some adjustments to the sideboard, thinking I might try and fit another rise // fall in if i can find another copy. I might also put another edict in the side, and i might try to fit a notion thief in the mainboard but i doubt ill find room

    Maybe cut the inquisiton main for a rise // fall and the pulse side for a notion thief or edict effect? Will see after saturday

  4. #164

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I found a convenient way to compile most of my data from playing this deck from some time in December. This picture contains the results of several hundred matches. I think that we can only get information from a few of the more played against decks, but it could provide some inspiration as far as where the deck needs more points and where it doesn't. I don't think the split is exact, specifically I don't think the different eldrazi characterizations were accurate, I don't think it correctly differentiates post and aggro so I wouldn't trust those numbers. Post is still nearly unwinnable and aggro is still a decent matchup. 4c control is likely a combination of actual 4c control and grixis control both are good matchups.

    https://gyazo.com/e108cf489a6d2144f20def601aa36135

    Hopefully this information helps you guys with tuning, I know I'm going to be messing around with some numbers now that I know more precisely where the weaker points are.

  5. #165

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I've been very interested in this deck lately, and I especially liked the card Cindervines that was recently printed.

    I wanted to play a RUG version, and I agree that the idea would be to be faster since you can't really answer a resolved TNN or a Marit Lage. Here's a list:

    3 lavamancer
    3 tnn
    3 snap
    3 punishing fire
    3 cindervines
    4 bolt
    4 ponder
    4 brainstorm
    4 force
    2 jace
    3 dack
    1 forked bolt
    1 spell pierce
    1 spell snare
    2 CounterBalance
    3 grove
    3 volc
    2 trop
    1 mountain
    4 island
    4 tarn
    1 mire
    2 strand

    SB
    3 pyroblast
    3 vapor snag
    3 surgical
    2 pulse of murasa
    2 flusterstorm
    1 null rod
    1 search for azcanta


    The general idea was to be a little more aggressive, landing cindervines or tnn early to get a hard-to-interact-with kind of threat and then burn them out while controlling the board with lavamancer and pfire. Counterbalance, Jace, and the Dack + pfire engines give the deck some ability to grind out longer games as well. Overall a bit bigger and more resilient than delver but lighter and more aggressive than Miracles/Grixis Control. Looking at the matchup sheet you presented, the worst matchups were burn and canadian thresh, and then big eldrazi. I feel like having TNN and lavamancer would help in those contexts (though these are only a small meta share really). That said I'm probably giving up a lot against Depths and maybe other combo decks since there's no discard. On the other hand, vines should make the fair blue matchup, especially the more midrange/control versions, even better than before.

    The sideboard was meant to hedge against Depths, and to give some tools against delver, as it feels like bigger blue decks should already be a good matchup. With the burn and my own TNNs I feel comfortable racing other TNNs, and vines is an answer to life-gaining equipment. MD Cindervines seems good against chalice decks as well.

    Any thoughts? Is it important to get a loam engine in there? Does this seem like something with potential?

    My apologies if this is not a good place to post the idea


    Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest

  6. #166

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    When I played a RUG version of the deck I was particularly happy with the green two drops, I think I would want to play a scavenging ooze as well as some number of tarmogoyf in a list like this.

    I also like cindervines a lot and tried it in the sideboard of the 4c version, but in the end was not impressed. That said, I think in a more aggressively tilted list it will shine a bit more.

    If I was playing the RUG build of this deck I wouldn't play CB or CV in the main, but I think both are excellent sideboard cards. I'd take advantage of the improved access to green and probably try some number of BoP, because there are so many great 3s to ramp into. I think 3 grim is too many, so that's another spot to trim I think.

    I do think this idea has merit, I eventually moved away from it because I really enjoy the black cards, but there is almost certainly a powerful RUG shell that just needs to be found.

    of course, if you made changes like this, you'd probably need to retool your mana base from the one posted.

  7. #167

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Thanks for the advice! I am particularly keen to try maindeck Cindervines, but if it turns out to be a dud then ok. To my mind it forces the opponent to use their life as a resource, so from our side this only really works if we pressure their life, so we need an aggressive build. That part of the idea I'm sort of set on for now and want to give a real shot, though I agree that there are some intrinsic flaws with the idea.

    I think you're probably right about cutting CB, maybe shaving a lavaman. You mention BoP for 3s - I was also excited to play Birds but upon reflection the only threes were TNN and Dack... both good to ramp into but still. Do you have any other threes in mind? I suppose t3 Jace isn't bad either. I could do an intuition package (add a Loam and maybe a wasteland and a barbarian ring).

    I am a big Scooze fan, so will try to find room for one or two, they will also help with pressuring the opp life total. Probably try and play a basic forest and some number of misty rainforest to make the green work better.

    Mostly just saying some thoughts - thank you for your input, it is quite helpful!
    Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest

  8. #168

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I think if you're playing 3-4 TNN and 3 Dack, you're good. However, you could also play something like young pyromancer as a pseudo-3 drop that doesn't actually glut your 3 slot.

  9. #169
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Hey guys. I'm looking forward to some suggestion for the manabase.

    I currently own 3USea, 2Trop, 1Bayou, 1Volc, 1Badland. Honestly in the short period of time I couldn't buy in any dual lands. How would you build the lands based on my circumstance?

  10. #170

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I think without 2 Volc + 1 badlands, you probably need to play 22 lands.

    4 Delta
    3 Tarn
    1 Mire

    3 Sea
    2 Island
    1 Volc
    1 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    1 Badlands
    1 Trop
    1 Bayou

    3 Grove

    That's where I'd start at least.

  11. #171
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    I think without 2 Volc + 1 badlands, you probably need to play 22 lands.

    4 Delta
    3 Tarn
    1 Mire

    3 Sea
    2 Island
    1 Volc
    1 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    1 Badlands
    1 Trop
    1 Bayou

    3 Grove

    That's where I'd start at least.
    Thanks for that! What do you think of using Misty Rainforest and Wooded Foothil in this deck?

  12. #172

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Because I am not playing any basic forests, I am not super interested in playing misty and wooded foothills as my fetches.

  13. #173

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Congratulations to Edgar on top 8ing GP Niagara falls with the deck!

    I'm working on a video primer, it can be found here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRE2...CdLem1I-2y_S_R

    As well as on the first page. It is not yet finished, but I will be adding videos rapidly in the coming weeks.

  14. #174

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Hello fellow artifact-stealers,
    Long-time lurker, especially appreciated Stryfo's MU spreadsheet that was dope. Long-time Legacy player, I really wanted to get some meaningful experience with the deck before jamming in a few insights and asking a few questions. To get that experience, I played a very similar list to the Niagara Falls top8 one. Wall of text ahead.

    - First, the deck is an absolute blast to play. Slow & grindy CA, recurring Fires, very few lopsided MUs, getting to play a lot of sexy cards (Notion Thief <3), fair and fun MtG. Great job pals for where you brought the deck.
    - One of my main concerns is that quite often the deck turns out to be a cute version of Grixis Control, with a worse manabase that doesn't allow you to play HTT. Sure does playing green give us some interesting options (Decay, Deed, Leovold) but we're also giving up on some points in the process.
    - I've been wondering lately if good ol' Liliana v1 didn't deserve to share the 3-drop PW slots with Dack. She is similar to the latter, the mana is slightly more awkward but sill can be cast off two basics + a biland, she does allow some CA with Punishing + Grove out (albeit slower than in the late-game), ticks up at the same rate for an ultimate that's a blowout against Control anyhow. The -2 is I think slightly more relevant as it gives us an additional Edict effect to fight those pesky TNN's/Anglers. The printing of the upgraded Edict in WAR makes me wonder if Lili took the upper hand in the 3CMC-PW duel. I'm considering a 2-1 split in favour of Liliana. It also occurred to me that Dack being blue was more often a liability (Pyroblast is a card) than a strength (pitching to Force).
    - I've had trouble on the draw with proactive, utilitary T1 permanents, like Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes and even Noble Hierarch/GSZ=0 for Dryad Arbor. The deck is playing PF as its main source of removal and doesn't have access to Push/Bolt, therefore the fastest you can deal with the latters is on your own T2, which is too little too late. So I often end up blowing up a Force on those. Feels bad.
    - I want to find a room for a copy of Rise//Fall in the MD. The card not only is super-cool but also offers a lot of flexibility. I think it would replace Kolaghan's Command and the Fall part would be better if coupled to Liliana for a better hand attack. However Rise//Fall + 2 Liliana in lieu of Kolaghan + 2 Dack makes the MD weaker to artifacts and consistently weakens, for instance, the UW Blade MU I think.
    - I'm considering a singleton Life from the Loam in the sideboard. The card is a super good answer to Wasteland strategies, whether it's Tempo or 4c Loam. Dredge 3 is good in the deck, however casting Loam involves fetching a nonbasic source of green which, in the face of Wasteland, is awkward. Have pals out there tried and dismissed it ?
    - I have swiftly replaced the 2 Tarmogoyfs in the side for 2 Gurmag Anglers. The idea behind is that I want to jam them in in Combo and Tempo MUs. In tempo MUs it does dodge Daze and Snare while not forcing me to open a green source to Wasteland, in combo MUs it allows me to tap not two but only one mana while presenting a potent game-ending threat. Delve is a bit awkward but in combo MUs I want to cantrip agressively anyhow.
    - Sulfuric Vortex gave me trouble out of URx Delver sideboards. Not only does it put a meaningful clock on you, it also shuts down the PF-Grove engine and your only out to this is Decay, forcing you to fetch green. Horrible.
    - I have seen people play Pulse of Murasa in their sideboards, have not myself and never missed it. I don't even get why the card is played in the first place.
    - I found Leovold to be underwhelming in the current metagame. I wouldn't cut it - it does really shine sometimes - but more often than not does it get immediately Plowed/Bolted/Pushed/Karakas'd, thus ending up being an overcosted Baleful Strix. Maybe do I play the card too early/proactively, but it does seem to me that as Leovold is the only meaningful target for removal (blowing a removal on Strix or Snap feels generally bad), he ends up eating those to the face.
    - It happened to me several times, especially against red decks, to have the game "in control", being +6 or more in CA with Dack-Grove up, and ending up losing to topdecked bolts because I have no meaningful way to counter each of those (only MD permission is 4 Forces, doesn't get much better post-board). Also feels bad.

    Waiting for feedback on those points, because I'm usually much better at playing what people have thoroughly tested than building myself. Anyhow, I may very well end up playing this very sexy pile of crap IRL, this feels way too good to be passed.

  15. #175

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    - First, the deck is an absolute blast to play. Slow & grindy CA, recurring Fires, very few lopsided MUs, getting to play a lot of sexy cards (Notion Thief <3), fair and fun MtG. Great job pals for where you brought the deck.


    Thanks =)


    - One of my main concerns is that quite often the deck turns out to be a cute version of Grixis Control, with a worse manabase that doesn't allow you to play HTT. Sure does playing green give us some interesting options (Decay, Deed, Leovold) but we're also giving up on some points in the process.

    I'm not sure what points we're actually giving up, call me biased all you want but I think this deck is actually positioned significantly better than grixis control is at the moment.

    - I've been wondering lately if good ol' Liliana v1 didn't deserve to share the 3-drop PW slots with Dack. She is similar to the latter, the mana is slightly more awkward but sill can be cast off two basics + a biland, she does allow some CA with Punishing + Grove out (albeit slower than in the late-game), ticks up at the same rate for an ultimate that's a blowout against Control anyhow. The -2 is I think slightly more relevant as it gives us an additional Edict effect to fight those pesky TNN's/Anglers. The printing of the upgraded Edict in WAR makes me wonder if Lili took the upper hand in the 3CMC-PW duel. I'm considering a 2-1 split in favour of Liliana. It also occurred to me that Dack being blue was more often a liability (Pyroblast is a card) than a strength (pitching to Force).

    I am not sure which list you are running, but my recent lists have all had a liliana of the veil in them for precisely TNN and gurmag angler. As for Dack's blueness being a liability, it's technically true, but it's like calling Jace's blueness a liability, it doesn't really matter in deck construction because the card is just so insanely powerful. If you are considering cutting Dack I HIGHLY encourage you to play more with Dack, basically every time you untap with Dack you should be immensely favored to win the game, that just isn't the case with liliana.

    - I've had trouble on the draw with proactive, utilitary T1 permanents, like Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes and even Noble Hierarch/GSZ=0 for Dryad Arbor. The deck is playing PF as its main source of removal and doesn't have access to Push/Bolt, therefore the fastest you can deal with the latters is on your own T2, which is too little too late. So I often end up blowing up a Force on those. Feels bad.

    I am not sure which list you're working from, but my list does play a single push. As for whether it's worth more than one slot, consider the meta share of utility one drop creatures, I'll estimate 30%, and I believe that to be very generous. Then we estimate the odds of those utility one drops being in the opener for these decks, which is about 45%, and we then bring into account the fact that they are only important 50% of the time (because they are on the play). Altogether this means an upper bound of about 7% of the time you will need a turn one removal spell If we further take into account the odds of not having a one of vs. a two of one drop removal spell in the opener + first draw, the chance of this scenario coming up (they play a one drop on turn one that you can't answer on turn one) from 7% (no answers) -> 6% (one answer) -> 5% (two answers). Beyond this, I'd argue that against non-elves decks, killing mana dorks with 1 drop removal isn't that important, which drops those percentages even further. Given this I haven't found the additional one drop removal spell to be worth it.

    - I want to find a room for a copy of Rise//Fall in the MD. The card not only is super-cool but also offers a lot of flexibility. I think it would replace Kolaghan's Command and the Fall part would be better if coupled to Liliana for a better hand attack. However Rise//Fall + 2 Liliana in lieu of Kolaghan + 2 Dack makes the MD weaker to artifacts and consistently weakens, for instance, the UW Blade MU I think.

    I tried Rise//Fall a few times in the main and haven't liked it in the current climate. It was amazing in the DRS era, but now it's just a little too awkward because Rise is just too weak on average now, where it used to be extremely powerful in DRS meta.

    - I'm considering a singleton Life from the Loam in the sideboard. The card is a super good answer to Wasteland strategies, whether it's Tempo or 4c Loam. Dredge 3 is good in the deck, however casting Loam involves fetching a nonbasic source of green which, in the face of Wasteland, is awkward. Have pals out there tried and dismissed it ?

    I've tried loam and haven't been impressed, I don't think it helps against tempo much because it's a too mana spell that gets countered by everything and forces you to fetch green. I don't think the deck needs more help with 4c loam, that matchup is fine.

    - I have swiftly replaced the 2 Tarmogoyfs in the side for 2 Gurmag Anglers. The idea behind is that I want to jam them in in Combo and Tempo MUs. In tempo MUs it does dodge Daze and Snare while not forcing me to open a green source to Wasteland, in combo MUs it allows me to tap not two but only one mana while presenting a potent game-ending threat. Delve is a bit awkward but in combo MUs I want to cantrip agressively anyhow.

    I don't currently play any big dumb beaters in my list and I haven't really run into any trouble against combo, Dack is a virtual clock that does a lot more to protect you than a creature does. The spot where I really like gurmag angler is against other gurmag angler decks.

    - Sulfuric Vortex gave me trouble out of URx Delver sideboards. Not only does it put a meaningful clock on you, it also shuts down the PF-Grove engine and your only out to this is Decay, forcing you to fetch green. Horrible.

    Yes, this card is annoying. Hydroblast does answer it though.

    - I have seen people play Pulse of Murasa in their sideboards, have not myself and never missed it. I don't even get why the card is played in the first place.

    I still think Pulse of Murasa is a great include. It rebuys whatever the most important land or creature in your graveyard is and gains 6 life. basically every time I've resolved this against Delver it has shut the door, since they frequently kill you just before stabilization, and this card helps with that. It also just lets you get out of bolt range in a ton of matchups, which is a big deal. I even bring it in against storm as a cancel effect for infernal tutor, since you can bounce a fetch to their hand and make their tutor really bad.

    - I found Leovold to be underwhelming in the current metagame. I wouldn't cut it - it does really shine sometimes - but more often than not does it get immediately Plowed/Bolted/Pushed/Karakas'd, thus ending up being an overcosted Baleful Strix. Maybe do I play the card too early/proactively, but it does seem to me that as Leovold is the only meaningful target for removal (blowing a removal on Strix or Snap feels generally bad), he ends up eating those to the face.

    This is true, but I find Leo to be an effective tool against combo and punishing fire that randomly hoses fair blue. I'm willing to use a single slot on Leo.

    - It happened to me several times, especially against red decks, to have the game "in control", being +6 or more in CA with Dack-Grove up, and ending up losing to topdecked bolts because I have no meaningful way to counter each of those (only MD permission is 4 Forces, doesn't get much better post-board). Also feels bad.

    Yes, this happens, the best thing to do is to play in such a way that you don't die to topdecked bolt. I frequently make my mana worse to stay at 4, throw away fetches with Dack, make awkward blocks, etc. When I know that's a possibility. Pulse of murasa in postboard games also gains up to 12 life, which makes it much harder for these sequences to occur.


    Hope that clears up any confusion you have, best of luck playing the deck!

  16. #176

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    been busy with school so I've been off the deck (off magic really) for a while, but the new set brought us the new Narset which makes me excited to play magic again. I was wondering if you were considering it as a replacement to leovold, also allowing us to drop green. This is a rough draft of a potential mb


    // 60 Maindeck
    // 10 Creature
    3 Notion Thief
    3 True-Name Nemesis
    4 Snapcaster Mage

    // 15 Instant
    4 Force of Will
    3 Punishing Fire
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Fatal Push

    // 23 Land
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Cephalid Coliseum
    2 Geier Reach Sanitarium
    4 Grove of the Burnwillows
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Badlands
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Island

    // 8 Planeswalker
    3 Narset, Parter of Veils
    3 Dack Fayden
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    // 4 Sorcery
    1 Toxic Deluge
    2 Rise // Fall
    1 Ponder




    This lets us stay grixis, to fix our horrible mana base a bit, while giving us access to the main portions of our deck. This is a super rough draft that I haven't even tested yet, but I wanted to know your thoughts.

    - Cephalid Coliseum and Geier Reach Sanitarium have been added. They can be insane with a narset or notion thief out, but they do weaken our manabase. I'm thinking I'm probably going to end up cutting geier entirely, and maybe leaving a single coliseum in, but I generally like to start with the greedier versions of decks so the 2/2 split for now. The lock with geier reach is also just fun.

    - I want to find room for baleful strix

    - Not sure if I have enough impactful instants/sorceries for snapcaster atm

    - TNN is probably bad since it will be pretty much the only creature clock, and most wins will probably off the back of a Jace or establishing a lock in which case snaps or notion thief are fine


    Again, this is super rough, but I really wanted to explore dropping green so that we can fix the mana base a bit

    I also want to add Day's Undoing as a potential card to look at. With a Narset or Thief out, it pretty much always ends in a concession, and it can also hose graveyard strats if timed properly. I didn't include it yet since I'm afraid it might be too cute for legacy

  17. #177

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    First, the deck is essentially required to play 3 or 4 green sources no matter what, so I believe splashing green is so free and easy that it is a mistake not to do so.

    Second, as for the list. It looks incredibly clunky to me. 9 threes (plus 4 snapcasters) 5 of which don't effect the board and 5 4s is really tough. And while on the surface the mana might look better, I'm not convinced it actually is, there are fewer cantrips and the mana distribution looks a little awkward to me, I'd never go below three non-grove red sources, for example. This version looks very powerful in blue mirrors, but that's already where this deck shines, and I think you're giving up a lot of points elsewhere.

    As for Narset in general, I tried her out as a one of and wasn't really impressed, the primary reason being that she was winmore for this deck, since every matchup where she was good was already good.

    If it plays out differently then by all means let me know, the deck looks sweet, just a touch inconsistent.

  18. #178

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Hey guys! I am looking to build this deck, and I was curious what list is everyone on with the release of Modern Horizons?

  19. #179

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I don't really know if this is the list that "everyone" is on. But this is what I've been playing the last few weeks and it feels like a large chunk of the online meta is favorable, with the primary exception being RUG Delver.

    https://app.cardboard.live/shared-de...e-12e7b5d8b110

  20. #180

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    I don't really know if this is the list that "everyone" is on. But this is what I've been playing the last few weeks and it feels like a large chunk of the online meta is favorable, with the primary exception being RUG Delver.

    https://app.cardboard.live/shared-de...e-12e7b5d8b110
    I'm having a hard time with this list in my local meta. There's a lot of moon decks unfortunately. I think I'm going to drop a Tropical Island and put in a basic Forest as well as change up the fetches a bit.

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