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Thread: Punishing Thieves

  1. #61

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    @kingtk3

    *why no more Leovold in the 75, but still a copy of Notion Thief? I agree that with Dack in play the latter is stronger, but overall the power of Leovold is superior

    - I have frequently been unimpressed with leovold in this deck, not because it is not powerful, but because it is not powerful enough for the risk involved. The deck really is grixis with a VERY light green splash, and I want to be able to cast all of my spells all the time. If I'm going to play a green spell, it should be backbreaking -or- life saving. Decay is one of the few answers we have to counterbalance, Pulse of Murasa is good in a large number of matchups and giving this deck another strix/snap/DRS and six life is a huge swing. Deed destroys people. Leovold is too frequently a low value 2 for one against the decks you want it against, and is just not worth having in the deck against others. IF you want to switch up the mana base to support a bayou or 2nd trop, I could see Leo being a solid choice, but I hate losing to blood moon, so I like the three basics, and I'm not sure what else you'd be able to cut.

    As for the comparison with Notion Thief, having flash is REALLY good against many of the decks you want the effect against. Not just because you can get them, but because you get to hold up mana and fundamentally change how people have to play against you.

    *why preordain instead of ponder?

    -I'm just trying preordain, I like it so far, it hasn't really stood out in games as being much better or much worse than ponder.

    *have you considered null rod instead of revoker as a side card against storm (shuts LED and Petal) which helps in the Mud and Big Eldrazi MU? You lose some punch against sneak attack decks but gain something to play against stoneforge adn D&T

    -I don't think Null Rod is as good as revoker. Against storm, it's important to have a clock, and it already shuts down LED. The artifact mana draws out of big eldrazi are not the problem, the problem is the post + eye of ugin draws. MUD is a good matchup and is pretty rare, so I'm not going to devote any cards to it. I think I'd rather have revoker against DnT than null rod, primarily because it also hits Mother of Runes. DnT is also already one of the best matchups for this deck as is, so I'm not too worried about having dedicated cards for it.

    As an aside, I think if you are interested in something good against storm and Big Eldrazi, you could try damping sphere.

  2. #62

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    @atreju:

    I am curious as to how pithing needle is good against food chain and MUD, but I agree it is decent against lands and depths, and if those are giving you trouble, it's worth trying.

    I'd encourage you to test a bit more against MUD, I haven't played against it a ton (probably less than 10 matches) but I don't recall ever losing a match to it, and I have felt in control every time I play against it.

    Marsh casualties is definitely a card to cut if you don't expect much delver, but I just like having a bunch of answers to TNN.
    Doesn't pithing needle shut down the card food chain? It's not fantastic against MUD but it does hit Forgemaster, Ugin, Lightning Greaves, Karn Scion

  3. #63

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Food chain is a mana ability, so pithing needle does not hit it, phyrexian revoker does though. Both can name ballista, which is good.

  4. #64
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    FTFY
    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    Big Eldrazi: This matchup is abysmal obviously the best matchup you could hope for, the way you win is with a fast walker almost every time. If you want to try damping sphere it would help against this deck and storm quite a bit.
    Anyway, congrats on the 10-0! Really terrific piloting.

  5. #65
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by contra View Post
    FTFY


    Anyway, congrats on the 10-0! Really terrific piloting.
    What event you're referring to? I'm quite interested in the deck ^_^
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  6. #66
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by kingtk3 View Post
    What event you're referring to? I'm quite interested in the deck ^_^
    Legacy Challenge
    Quote Originally Posted by MXG View Post
    Leovold because he is just gasoline. Look at the artwork. He knows it's over. He's offering your opponent the handshake.

  7. #67
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Congratz to Stryfo!

    A couple of questions:
    • Is Sylvan Library really needed in the side? This deck already seems great at grinding people, so I think to play a copy of damping sphere to help against combo and eldrazi and MUD.
    • How do you weight the single Thoutseize in the maindeck against a copy of Leovold? I know you already said that you're not impressed with Leo in the deck, but I'm wondering if he can be better than the single target discard you play, which seems a little random.
    • What are your thoughts about switching deluge and deeds between main and side?



    Thanks for the feedback!
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  8. #68

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    @kingtk3

    As far as Sylvan library goes, it's not strictly necessary, but I've always liked having a few grindy cards to bring into the deck that are non blue and not soft to graveyard hate, and sylvan has filled that position nicely.

    The singleton thoughtseize could easily be a leovold, but I don't think that the thoughtseize is random, when I build my decks I build a full 75, this means that sometimes cards I want access to bleed into the main, like when I played a singleton pyroblast. And this deck can handle odd one ofs better than most due to Dack Fayden, so I think the value of the single mainboard thoughtseize is fine. If you want to play Leo, that's completely reasonable, just not my preference.

    Switching Deluge to the board and Deed to the main is interesting, I think I'd want to play deluge main for mana purposes, but if you are playing a second fetchable green then that switch could be very reasonable.

  9. #69
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    @kingtk3

    As far as Sylvan library goes, it's not strictly necessary, but I've always liked having a few grindy cards to bring into the deck that are non blue and not soft to graveyard hate, and sylvan has filled that position nicely.

    The singleton thoughtseize could easily be a leovold, but I don't think that the thoughtseize is random, when I build my decks I build a full 75, this means that sometimes cards I want access to bleed into the main, like when I played a singleton pyroblast. And this deck can handle odd one ofs better than most due to Dack Fayden, so I think the value of the single mainboard thoughtseize is fine. If you want to play Leo, that's completely reasonable, just not my preference.

    Switching Deluge to the board and Deed to the main is interesting, I think I'd want to play deluge main for mana purposes, but if you are playing a second fetchable green then that switch could be very reasonable.
    Thanks for your feedback.

    You're perfectly right: considering the 75 the Thoughtseize in the main complements the discard package with Inquisition in the side and the 2 Fall in the main. What I thought is that discards will come in mainly against combo, and Leovold is another card which is great against combo, while also being a clock, and being relevant against fair decks too.
    However playing Leovold will probably change a little the sideboard plans, since you may be one card short in the side out, so that's the reason why I was asking for advice.

    Regarding deluge and deed: the former can kill gurmag angler and other big creatures (like something cheated into play or ramped into) and it always costs 3 mana, however the life cost can be a liability against decks with reach or simply make it uncastable.
    Deed wipes the board more clean than deluge because gets rid of artifacts (chalice, trinisphere...) and enchantment (azcanta, library, rest in piece...) too. It can be fired at instant speed (relevant for attacking manlands like nexus or entreat in your EoT) and doesn't care about your life total. However you have to spend actual mana so high CC threats may be out of reach.

    Each have its pros and cons, but basically are cards that cost more resources than the initial mana cost, being more mana or life.

    Another thing: I switched the Diabolic Edict in the side with a copy of to the slaughter as an answer to PW and hopefully another 2 for 1.

    What do you think?
    Ignorance is strength

  10. #70

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I’ve always been a fan of to the slaughter, but for a long time a dismissed it in this particular deck because turbo depths was very popular and I felt I needed mana efficiency. Depths is not as common these days so it’s completely reasonable to make that swap, I’ll probably try it out myself in the next week.

  11. #71
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    How would you change the mana base to accomodate -1 Thoughtseize, +1 Leovold and swap between deluge and deed from main to side?
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  12. #72

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I'd cut an island for a bayou and probably change 2 of the tarns for a pair of misties, I'm sure about island->bayou, less sure about 2 tarn->2 misty.

  13. #73
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I think if any I would drop an Island for a Bayou, but only if I'd change thoughtseize for Leovold. In theory if you only swap deluge and deed from main to side you should be good with the mana base, since deed is a card you're already playing in your 75s.

    What do you think about Tarmogoyf in the side? In the 4c control thread they are playing 3 to improve the clock against combo, TNN decks (given that without equipment TNN is not very fast), or to have a big wall against angler and eldrazi and such.

    Here's an article of BBD on the matter. Obviously all is referred to 4c control, but maybe we can get some ideas too.

    http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/articl...date=5-24-2018
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  14. #74

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    My issue with adding Tarmogoyf is that we don’t need it against stompy because it’s already a great matchup. If we bring it in against delver, we have to be extremely careful with our mana because our base is not as robust as that of Czech Pile, and playing that game is risky against delver. I think it’s conpletely reasonable to play a big dumb beater, but I think both tombstalker, which I’ve played on the past, and gurmag angler, which some Czech lists adopted in the past, are better solutions than Tarmogoyf for this deck. These options don’t clock combo as quickly, but I don’t think Tarmogoyf does enough against combo either.

    My personal preference is not to play big dumb beaters, so I haven’t looked into them extensively, though I could definitely be convinced that they are good enough, we just need to find the right ones.

  15. #75

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Hi Stryfo,
    i have seen all your record videos at your twitch account u have built a really beatifull deck.
    Tell me what about of 2 preodain and 1 ponder main? Also whats your thoughts about liliana of the veil into this deck?

  16. #76

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    @Ventouza6969 I played with ponders and I played with preordains and in the early game I felt little difference. In the late game, situations arise where one is better than the other. My reasoning for running a split is: In the mid-late game sometimes your snapcasters will have a choice of preordain vs. ponder, and this is a slight upgrade over not having this choice.

    As for liliana of the veil, I ran her for a long time and eventually decided I preferred Dack over her. In that meta I was more interested in having an instant speed edict, but if you don't believe you need instant speed edicts, you could easily swap to the slaughter for liliana. She has some nice synergy with pfire and getting multiple edicts is nice, but too many times I drew her and it was just not exciting to cast her.

  17. #77
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    I think both tombstalker, which I’ve played on the past, and gurmag angler, which some Czech lists adopted in the past, are better solutions than Tarmogoyf for this deck. These options don’t clock combo as quickly, but I don’t think Tarmogoyf does enough against combo either.
    For what it's worth, when I play BUG Delver, I shave Tarmogoyfs against most combo decks for the same reason. It's not fast enough and doesn't provide some kind of disruption. For Punishing Thieves, I think Leovold is quite a bit better as another tool against combo. I also like Vendilion Clique.

  18. #78

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    all we know that this deck has a lot of "one off cards", this is the big advantage of this deck but as much games as i see the fact that we have a lot of one of cards isnt always good. when we have the correct cards into the correct situations this deck is superior but the opposite is devastating. what do you think stryfo? Also at your last video i realised that you remove liliana for second thoughtseize whats your thoughts behind this? Moreover i think the to the slaughter is very very good but too slow dont u think because it stays into our hand more time than usual to take the full value and eventually it does nothing. do we need to change the casualties to golgary charm so we have and out to enchanment?

  19. #79

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    @ventouza6969

    As far as the one ofs go, they are largely either bombs or have a wide usage (of course this is not ALWAYS true, but this is the dilemma of the control deck, and in large part why Dack Fayden is so powerful).

    Liliana had an issue that I've been aware of for a while: the matchups where she is good are already good matchups, so I swapped her for a card that makes our worse matchups a bit betterm thoughtseize.

    To the slaughter was not great mainboard, but I have found it reasonable as a sideboard card, and moved edict back to the main.

    As far as switching the casualties for a charm, this is fine if you are playing a second fetchable green, but I don't think it's reliable enough with only the trop. If you want to play a different sweeper than casualties in the single trop build, you could try another copy of toxic deluge.

  20. #80

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    So what about spellseeker. I know the guy is janky as hell but it allows us to find many of our otherwise 1 or 2 of spells (decay, edict, pfire, rise/fall i think). Again i know its jank + but maybe its worth considering since i personally often lose to threats that require a specific card (TNN etc. )

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