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  1. #1

    Punishing Thieves

    Hi, I am Stryfo, but my MTGO handle is Clashed and I've been working on this deck since early December of last year (not really new, but potentially new to some of you). Recently, I think I've hit something pretty close to the sweet spot. Without any further nonsense, here is my current list:


    3 Dack Fayden
    3 Punishing Fire
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    1 Swamp
    4 Baleful Strix
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Diabolic Edict
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Fatal Push
    1 To the Slaughter
    1 Toxic Deluge
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Force of Will
    1 Tropical Island
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Ponder
    1 Gurmag Angler
    2 Counterbalance

    Sideboard

    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Sultai Charm
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Notion Thief
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Nihil Spellbomb




    Since the banning of DRS, the deck has moved closer to a Grixis deck with green sideboard cards. I have decided that the late game inevitability that DRS would help provide in the form of gaining life should be replaced by counterbalance. The idea is that a lot of early losses were coming after stabilization at low life to something like a lightning bolt. We were also missing a mainboard "hatebear" and CB helps with that. I think the build above is pretty decent, I've had plenty of success in MTGO leagues, but have had a really poor run in the challenges, which seems to have been a mixture of bad luck in the matchup lottery and randomly losing favorable matchups.

    Some thoughts I've not had time to explore in the new format:

    A 22nd land. I probably want to try a colorful spell land (maybe creeping tar pit?). I think the main has a spot currently occupied by angler that is really awkward, and it's very possible it should just be another land.

    Hymn in the sideboard for control/combo matchups. As much as I hate Hymn, it is certainly very powerful and can help secure the combo and control matchups (though control is already very good and most combo matchups are close to even).

    Bring Chandra back into the 75. I really miss playing with Chandra, but I think she just makes already good matchups better and doesn't fix any holes. She might still be worth exploring.

    I miss playing with Rise//Fall, but I can't find a way to conveniently get enough creatures into the deck and still have a reasonable combo matchup (I'd like 10 creatures if I'm playing Rise//Fall)


    Here is a video primer to the deck that will eventually include all of the common matchups:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRE2...CdLem1I-2y_S_R



    I hope all of you coming to this deck are looking forward to stealing some wins!

    Thanks for reading, I look forward to any thoughts, experiences, and ideas you all might have.
    Last edited by Stryfo; 04-23-2019 at 10:16 PM.

  2. #2
    The green Ancestral
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Needs more Liquimetal Coating. ;)

  3. #3
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I saw you Top8'ed again in the Challenge yesterday, that's very impressive man ! Congratz :)

    The deck looks like a blast to play and is for sure favored against Czech Pile.

    Some random questions :

    Notion Thief seems a bit random, a 2nd Leovold or any other cards (Ponder, Thoughseize etc...) seems better. Are you 100% convinced that it is the best spell here ?
    What about Chandra ? Is she really better than a 2nd Jace ?
    You are really super light against combo main deck and even post board, it doesn't seem enough ... Storm and SnS are still quite played even on MTGO so I would be afraid to try your deck because of that.
    How has been performing Rise/Fall and Search for Azcanta ?

    Can you explain a bit your sideboard ? It looks very versatile but some cards seems better than other like Flusterstorm > Invasive Surgery and Thoughtseize > Duress, Surgical > Nihil Spellbomb

    Thank you.

  4. #4
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I've been playing this deck a bit myself in various forms and found Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace to be hugely problematic. Decks like NicFit, Aggro Loam, etc. all run it and without maindeck enchantment removal, it's felt hugely problematic. I used to run a singleton Sultai Charm and Abrupt Decay (which, notably, doesn't hit Leyline), but recently I've been wanting to try Golgari Charm in the sideboard answer. Thoughts?

    Also, why Chandra over the second JTMS? I can see arguments for both but I haven't been enamored with her, especially since she's red and I try not to fetch for red until later in the game.

    P.S. I'm regularmother on twitch and periodically tune in. Love the channel, love the decks. Cheers!

  5. #5

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I'm surprised Chandra isn't in more of the 4c/pile decks. She comes down with so much loyalty and really demands an answer. Provides card advantage while your opponent is scrambling to do something about her before she ults. I say this though, as someone who doesn't really play those goodstuff decks. I've been killed several times by her, and I've watched Stryfo play a couple leagues with her and she is good every time she comes down. Dodges the expected REB that would hit Jace (I'm not sure how many decks are running BEB/Hydro).

  6. #6
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by square_two View Post
    I'm surprised Chandra isn't in more of the 4c/pile decks. She comes down with so much loyalty and really demands an answer. Provides card advantage while your opponent is scrambling to do something about her before she ults. I say this though, as someone who doesn't really play those goodstuff decks. I've been killed several times by her, and I've watched Stryfo play a couple leagues with her and she is good every time she comes down. Dodges the expected REB that would hit Jace (I'm not sure how many decks are running BEB/Hydro).
    I would say the casting cost is why it doesn't see play. Red is a light splash color in Pile, and Chandra costs RR. Deathrite Shaman may make rainbow mana, but the greedier you build your deck, the more often you're going to lose to yourself, let alone the damage that Wasteland's can cause.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I would say the casting cost is why it doesn't see play. Red is a light splash color in Pile, and Chandra costs RR. Deathrite Shaman may make rainbow mana, but the greedier you build your deck, the more often you're going to lose to yourself, let alone the damage that Wasteland's can cause.
    At the time I was running the same manabase as above, but maybe cutting 1 Island and adding a Badlands or Volcanic Island might make Chandra easier to run with.

  8. #8

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Yeah saw that too. Nevertheless, deck (dack?) looks fantastic. Feel like sleeving it up.

  9. #9

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I took some of the ideas I've gleaned from this thread and made some changes to my deck, based in part on what I expect at GP Santa Clara.

    From the list on the front page:


    Main
    -1 Search for Azcanta
    -1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    -1 Thoughtseize
    -1 Ponder

    +1 Tasigur
    +1 Collective Brutality
    +1 Rise//Fall
    +1 Lightning Bolt

    SB:
    -1 Bitterblossom
    -1 Rise//Fall
    -1 Invasive Surgery
    -1 Duress

    +1 Thoughtseize
    +1 Force of Will
    +1 Hydroblast
    +1 Collective Brutality

    As you can see, I am trying to hedge more against burn with an additional hydroblast and two collective brutalities. The bolt was because I wanted one more clean answer to Leo, and I like having access to bolt. This felt like a lot of changes, but so far I am happy with them. I think these changes are for the best, because the worse matchups gain significant points, and the lost points are small, and largely to already strong matchups.

    Edit: I have played two leagues with this build now and am 9-1. My thoughts are:

    Brutality is kind of meh against things that aren't burn or delver but I don't want to cut it. Maybe I will move it to the board and bring the 4th force main.
    Tasigur giving raw cards for brainstorm and Dack is cool, even if they give you junk.
    I'm repeatedly happy with how Rise//Fall plays in this deck against a wide variety of decks, and it remains easier to cast than hymn.
    Last edited by Stryfo; 11-09-2017 at 08:51 AM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    Brutality is kind of meh against things that aren't burn or delver but I don't want to cut it. Maybe I will move it to the board and bring the 4th force main.
    Tasigur giving raw cards for brainstorm and Dack is cool, even if they give you junk.
    I'm repeatedly happy with how Rise//Fall plays in this deck against a wide variety of decks, and it remains easier to cast than hymn.
    I tested out rise//fall after your suggestion, seems decent in the combo matchup which is something I'm looking to improve. Also had an interesting play against reanimator where I bounced a creature from his grave and a creature he had in play. while I don't expect that to come up much I think that it is a good flex spot for right now and will catch many players off guard.

    I think one of the more powerful aspects of the deck is the fact that people seem to have a hard time figuring out what to do against the deck. they either try to oversideboard to fight the graveyard or they lean to heavily on things like chalice/blood moon/leovold to try to get them there.

  11. #11
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    I took some of the ideas I've gleaned from this thread and made some changes to my deck, based in part on what I expect at GP Santa Clara.

    From the list on the front page:


    Main
    -1 Search for Azcanta
    -1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    -1 Thoughtseize
    -1 Ponder

    +1 Tasigur
    +1 Collective Brutality
    +1 Rise//Fall
    +1 Lightning Bolt

    SB:
    -1 Bitterblossom
    -1 Rise//Fall
    -1 Invasive Surgery
    -1 Duress

    +1 Thoughtseize
    +1 Force of Will
    +1 Hydroblast
    +1 Collective Brutality

    As you can see, I am trying to hedge more against burn with an additional hydroblast and two collective brutalities. The bolt was because I wanted one more clean answer to Leo, and I like having access to bolt. This felt like a lot of changes, but so far I am happy with them. I think these changes are for the best, because the worse matchups gain significant points, and the lost points are small, and largely to already strong matchups.

    Edit: I have played two leagues with this build now and am 9-1. My thoughts are:

    Brutality is kind of meh against things that aren't burn or delver but I don't want to cut it. Maybe I will move it to the board and bring the 4th force main.
    Tasigur giving raw cards for brainstorm and Dack is cool, even if they give you junk.
    I'm repeatedly happy with how Rise//Fall plays in this deck against a wide variety of decks, and it remains easier to cast than hymn.
    You planning on doing a quick side boarding guide for some of the most prevelant decks? (Pile, D&T, Storm, Delver, S&S, etc.)

  12. #12

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    @itrytostorm:

    I'm happy to include my sideboarding advice, in fact, I did so for some matchups in an earlier post. I'll put all of this information together in the original post.

  13. #13
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    @itrytostorm:

    I'm happy to include my sideboarding advice, in fact, I did so for some matchups in an earlier post. I'll put all of this information together in the original post.
    Have you thought about trying flip Jace? Or have you tried and it underwhelmed?

  14. #14
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    What about a copy of engineered explosives instead of firespout? It deals with goose as good, but it's also an answer to chalice and other pesky permanents up to 4 cc

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  15. #15

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    @kingtk3 That's actually a change I ended up making a while back, good thinking!

  16. #16

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    @kingtk3 That's actually a change I ended up making a while back, good thinking!
    I'll admit to not knowing all of the protocols to The Source, but it seems that the first post of this thread (or a subsequent post) is due to chronicle the post-ban version of the deck, it's new tools, and new sideboard strategies.

    Your list is always being tweaked and upgraded, which is sweet , so I realize it's just a snapshot but a helpful find for others who may just now be finding the deck.

    The Counterbalance has been the gassiest of gas for me

  17. #17
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    @kingtk3 That's actually a change I ended up making a while back, good thinking!
    :)

    BTW, I think that a copy of Pernicious deed should be played in the side, maybe instead of Ob Nixilis?

    Against which decks you bring in the 4th Snapcaster from the side? Against combo to recast discard and put a clock?
    Ignorance is strength

  18. #18

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    @SJerusalem:
    You're absolutely right, at the very least I will update the list on the front page, I don't know if I can give the greatest sideboarding advice on every matchup yet, but I'll work on that as well.

    @kingtk3 Refer to the front page shortly =)

  19. #19

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Hi again Chase. Watching the gp coverage now I've realized I need an ensnaring bridge in my 75, I might even switch it for push mb.... (for my local meta anyway), have you tested it?

    With DRS gone there really aren't that many targets for push. Which also means less targets for pfire and I find myself looting away push a lot when I wish it was a pfire. With abrupt decay also mostly gone it seems bridge is in a good spot although I must admit getting our hand down to size is a serious issue with our crazy card draw :-P

    As you know, we have major issues with dark depths and eldrazi stompy.

    You often mention how a card is win more than actually shoring up the bad matchups. You switched bolt for push when DRS disappeared (presumably because of the tarmo-threat?) so I am curious to how you think bridge stacks up.

    And a big +1 to both of you guys for the engineered explosives idea :-D It's just so flexible (which is in fact the real theme of this deck) and can ironacilly never be a flex spot with the current ban list.
    Last edited by Atreju; 08-31-2018 at 08:06 PM.

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