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Thread: Punishing Thieves

  1. #141

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    @walked

    I'm glad you're enjoying the deck.

    Your concern is definitely real, I almost never lose to miracles unless it's on the back of B2B, and mainboard pyroblast only goes so far. However, I have still found the miracles matchup to be very favorable. The thing is, in most situations, their deck can be boiled down to like 3 cards that matter, B2B, Mentor/Entreat and (Maybe) Counterbalance. If those don't resolve they can't win the vast majority of games. And Dack ultimate pressures 2/3 of those cards, leaving only B2B as relevant if you can resolve a Dack. Between Counterspells and discard you can pretty easily put them very far behind.

    I am going to try a new build when Assassin's trophy is released that goes a little heavier on green. I'll likely move to a 22nd land to play another fetchable green source (probably trop). In principle, this makes the mana slightly greedier, since we are going to be interested in resolving some green spells, but having additional answers to any problem permanent (even our worst problem, Eye of Ugin) might be worth it.

  2. #142

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Blood moon miracles is still the most popular around here due to popularity of depths, lands and eldrazi stompy. And against jeskai miracles we seem heavily favoured.

    I really like this deck. 75/75 all blinged out.


  3. #143

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    @walked

    I'm glad you're enjoying the deck.

    Your concern is definitely real, I almost never lose to miracles unless it's on the back of B2B, and mainboard pyroblast only goes so far. However, I have still found the miracles matchup to be very favorable. The thing is, in most situations, their deck can be boiled down to like 3 cards that matter, B2B, Mentor/Entreat and (Maybe) Counterbalance. If those don't resolve they can't win the vast majority of games. And Dack ultimate pressures 2/3 of those cards, leaving only B2B as relevant if you can resolve a Dack. Between Counterspells and discard you can pretty easily put them very far behind.

    I am going to try a new build when Assassin's trophy is released that goes a little heavier on green. I'll likely move to a 22nd land to play another fetchable green source (probably trop). In principle, this makes the mana slightly greedier, since we are going to be interested in resolving some green spells, but having additional answers to any problem permanent (even our worst problem, Eye of Ugin) might be worth it.
    That makes sense. Are you going to bring Leovold back into the fold, even if just a 1-of?

    Also - am I lucking out hard or is D&T just a bye? I feel like this matchup is so one-sided I must just be getting good draws (havent had a chance to play more than 4-5 matches now)

    edit: I also feel like I really crave a second K-Command; is that just too much to try to cram in?

  4. #144

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by walked View Post
    That makes sense. Are you going to bring Leovold back into the fold, even if just a 1-of?

    Also - am I lucking out hard or is D&T just a bye? I feel like this matchup is so one-sided I must just be getting good draws (havent had a chance to play more than 4-5 matches now)

    edit: I also feel like I really crave a second K-Command; is that just too much to try to cram in?
    Leovold was cut from the deck before DRS was banned so I'm guessing not. Yes D&T is probably the best matchup. I think there's not much we can do about burn but I'm still twisting my brain to try and figure out what to do against dark depths. I've actually considered blood moon lately because it seems to do much of the same as ensnaring bridge, but is not so soft to abrupt decay.

  5. #145

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I've tried the second Kommand but wasn't super impressed by it. There is a huge glut at three and I didn't find it better than just another 1 or 2 drop (or land).

    As far as Leo goes, I will not be playing him again, he was such a binary card, it seems you cast him on turn 2 or 3 and he's pretty good or you draw him later and he just does so little. Because of this he puts strain on early mana, which I didn't like. Trophy has the option of being cast early, but is really a much better play as you get further into the game, so the strain on the mana isn't so bad.

    DnT is a bye, basically every card in our deck is good against them in some capacity, and while our manabase looks greedy, it is not so bad when you look at the spells we are actually trying to cast, and we have a lot of mana producing lands, so it's hard for them to mana deny us for any length of time.

  6. #146

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I played the following list to a 3-3 (plus a bye) finish in the challenge today. I wasn't happy with the result exactly, but I was VERY happy with how the deck played. I lost to Eldrazi post, which is still a terrible matchup, and I lost to 4c Loam and Mono Red Stompy. against 4c loam I mulled to 5 twice and potentially misplayed, I still believe that matchup is slightly favorable. Against Mono Red Stompy I felt like everything had to fall my opponent's way twice for them to win, and it just did, unfortunately.

    I beat Grixis Control, Elves, and a Bant TNN deck. All of the matchups felt very favorable. I haven't got to play a ton with this list yet (~15 matches), but it feels really strong, and assassin's trophy has slotted in very nicely, especially because it is really more of a midgame card that can be cast early if really necessary, rather than a true early game play, which allows your mana to be far less strained than some other cards that fit that slot.

    http://www.streamdecker.com/deck/r1JhKiTYQ

  7. #147

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Hey there.

    I'm trying Stryfo's current list, but with some changes. (-1 Nihil Spellbomb, -1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest, +2 Gurmag Angler).

    Lands (22)

    1 Badlands
    1 Bayou
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    2 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Swamp
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island

    Instants (16)

    2 Assassin's Trophy
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Fatal Push
    4 Force of Will
    1 Kolaghan's Command
    3 Punishing Fire

    Sorceries (8)

    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Ponder
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge

    Planeswalkers (5)

    3 Dack Fayden
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Creatures (9)

    4 Baleful Strix
    2 Gurmag Angler
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    Is there any reason not to play Anglers?

    +++
    Add good clock vs combo and big eldrazi
    Fat blocker vs small eldrazi
    Our only chance to race Burn
    Insane vs Delver-decks, they usually have 3-4 cards in 75 that can kill them

    ---
    Enable useless removal cards of our opponents
    Don't disrupt combo
    Make Snapcaster slightly weaker

    Maybe 2 Gurmag Angler should be 1 Gurmag Angler + 1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest.

    Any thoughts?

  8. #148

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I don't think that Gurmag clocking combo is a real thing for this deck, it's obviously good, but not so good that I would want to play it for that reason. I think that with the retooled mana base that It's a little silly to not run at least one Leo, and it's embarrassing that it took me so long to realize that.

    Regarding your ideas:

    Add good clock vs combo and big eldrazi -- I don't think that gurmag does enough here, it isn't really that fast and is completely outclassed by their mid-top end.
    Fat blocker vs small eldrazi -- small eldrazi, outside of their nut draw, is already a pretty good matchup, but if there is a lot in your meta, I can see adding Gurmag.
    Our only chance to race Burn -- I just don't think this is fast enough without something like mainboard hymns. and burn is rare. If you expect more burn, anglers might be good for you.
    Insane vs Delver-decks, they usually have 3-4 cards in 75 that can kill them -- I'm not worried about delver, it's usually a pretty good matchup, but you're right.


    ---
    Enable useless removal cards of our opponents -- we do play -some- creatures already, so I'm not sure I buy this argument, but most of our stuff doesn't care about removal in the same way gurmag does.
    Don't disrupt combo -- very true
    Make Snapcaster slightly weaker -- I think this can be played around, not such a huge deal.

    The thing about angler is: it's obviously good, but it's good in matchups where we are already favored (not including burn), and the cuts we can make don't change those matchups significantly enough for me. However, I believe cutting Leo and spellbomb does significantly effect our less favorable game one matchups (combo).

    As an aside: did you know you have a 12% chance of drawing a 1 of in your opener? I think that's a big deal when thinking about haymaker one ofs like spellbomb.

    I'm glad you decided to pick up the deck and give it a try, in any configuration. After all, I play this deck in the configuration I do because I just love the way it plays.

    Happy Thanksgiving

  9. #149

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I got second place in the top 8 of the yearly local legacy league yesterday

    Creatures (8)
    4 Baleful Strix
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    Planeswalkers (6)
    3 Dack Fayden
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    Spells (24)
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Assassin's Trophy
    2 Diabolic Edict
    3 Punishing Fire
    1 Kolaghan's Command
    4 Force of Will
    Artifacts (1)
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    Lands (21)
    1 Badlands
    1 Bayou
    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    1 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Swamp
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Island
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Spell Pierce
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 To the Slaughter
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Notion Thief
    1 Rise // Fall

    Some thoughts on my changes compared to Stryfo's list:

    Hydroblast is only really good against burn, which is close to unwinnable anyway and it doesn't do much to shore up the matchup. There's Sneak attack, but I have more edict effects for that. For the same reason, I switched inquisition to thoughtseize because there are many problem four drops that need to be dealt with such as sneak attack and TKS.

    I went all the way up to four assasin's trophy as it's the most important card against colorless and marit lage decks which are otherwise problematic. I did the mistake of using one on a T2 sylvan Library vs Lands that cost me the tournament, as he continued to crop rotate for a fast marit lage.

    I took out hymn for rise//fall because it's better vs fair decks (I like bouncing angler and getting back a strix) while still being serviceable vs combo.

    I'm currently considering dropping Sylvan Library (we have so much card draw anyway it never feels like a bomb on turn two) for a fourth Dack Fayden in the side, because landing Dack on T3 is how we win most games against the problem matchups.

    I moved an Island to the side after noticing Stryfo sided out a land vs anything that doesn't have land hate. Most land hate decks are reasonable matchups anyway so I figured I'd rather have another spell for game 1.

    I went maindeck liliana of the veil and two edict because "swarm" decks such as Elves aren't that big any more. I find sacrifice effects are usually just as good as targeted removal (we pretty much always have to clear the board to win anyway), and again it shores up some holes vs the problem matchups.

  10. #150

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Congratulations on your finish! well done!

    How was the Rise//Fall with so few creatures? I am looking for an excuse to play with them again, I haven't been able to swing it since the ban though.

  11. #151

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    Congratulations on your finish! well done!

    How was the Rise//Fall with so few creatures? I am looking for an excuse to play with them again, I haven't been able to swing it since the ban though.
    I never sided it in this tournament but I like it. It's best against gurmag angler decks but I didn't face any. Getting strix back has always been the best target anyway, I think it's correct to still play it but definitely not main deck.

    It's not quite as good as hymn for discard but it's not far off either, and I like the mana cost better. Two black is hard to get to. Especially since I play three trophies, I find myself always trying to find as many colours as possible for the first turns.

  12. #152

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Hey, i'm looking to get back into legacy and this deck caught my interest. I used to plat esper deathblade, and havent played much since the drs ban.

    I was wondering why you weren't running mox diamond though, it can help power out a turn 2 dack (not sure if this is good) and help mitigate the effects of blood moon / b2b

    I also thought chalice or counterbalance could be good with that, being able to drop them turn 1. (Though chalice would make it so we cant run brainstorm/ponder which may not be what this deck wants)

  13. #153

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I'm sure a build of this deck could exist that wants to play mox diamond, but as is, the deck just doesn't play enough lands to support it. As for chalice, I also see a world where this deck plays chalice and cuts ponders and one mana discard/removal (maybe keeping brainstorms) to play more lands, mox diamonds, some number of loam, and the chalice that you suggest. This is just not where the deck is right now, I'd encourage you to try it out before writing it off if you have the means.

    As for counterbalance, I tested it extensively and found that it was fine, but it was worse than hymn if the mana was good enough to support hymn.

    Best of luck with whichever build you choose, and welcome back to legacy.

  14. #154

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Ill play around with a few builds but i wont be able to get good testing in until feb probably. I just wanted to see if you had tried those cards yet (i saw cb was in earlier builds but got cut so ill probably skip testing that)

    e: this is the very first list i'm going to test out.

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 10 Artifact
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Chrome Mox

    // 7 Creature
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    1 Notion Thief
    4 Baleful Strix

    // 10 Instant
    3 Punishing Fire
    4 Force of Will
    3 Assassin's Trophy

    // 23 Land
    3 Wasteland
    4 Grove of the Burnwillows
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Ghost Quarter

    // 6 Planeswalker
    3 Dack Fayden
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana of the Veil

    // 4 Sorcery
    3 Life from the Loam
    1 Collective Brutality


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 4 Artifact
    SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
    SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

    // 1 Creature
    SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis

    // 1 Enchantment
    SB: 1 Zur's Weirding

    // 4 Instant
    SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 1 Assassin's Trophy

    // 5 Sorcery
    SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
    SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
    SB: 2 Collective Brutality


    Don't expect it to be very good tbh, lots of random stuff just jammed in, I'm just trying to feel what could have potential.
    Last edited by PotatoSol; 01-03-2019 at 03:29 AM.

  15. #155

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Going to an event this weekend. Was wondering if you could look at this list:

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 1 Artifact
    • 1 Nihil Spellbomb


    // 8 Creature
    • 4 Baleful Strix
    • 3 Snapcaster Mage
    • 1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest


    // 16 Instant
    • 2 Assassin's Trophy
    • 4 Brainstorm
    • 1 Diabolic Edict
    • 1 Fatal Push
    • 4 Force of Will
    • 1 Kolaghan's Command
    • 3 Punishing Fire


    // 22 Land
    • 1 Badlands
    • 3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    • 2 Island
    • 4 Polluted Delta
    • 3 Scalding Tarn
    • 1 Swamp
    • 1 Tropical Island
    • 3 Underground Sea
    • 2 Volcanic Island
    • 1 Bloodstained Mire
    • 1 Bayou


    // 5 Planeswalker
    • 3 Dack Fayden
    • 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


    // 8 Sorcery
    • 1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    • 4 Ponder
    • 2 Thoughtseize
    • 1 Toxic Deluge


    // 15 Sideboard
    • 1 Notion Thief
    • 1 Pernicious Deed
    • 1 Abrupt Decay
    • 1 Pulse of Murasa
    • 2 Pyroblast
    • 2 Surgical Extraction
    • 1 To the Slaughter
    • 1 Assassin's Trophy
    • 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    • 1 Liliana of the Veil
    • 2 Hymn to Tourach
    • 1 Rise // Fall


    =====

    Some cards I didn't include are Pulse of Murasa, Engineered Explosives, and the SB Island.

    Can you explain why you don't run Engineered Explosives over say Pernicious Deed?

    Also, why do you like the Pulse of Murasa and the SB Island? Do you think some sort of life gain is necessary?

    Ive also been considering some number of pithing needle - have you tested with those? What about other random hate cards - blood sun for example?
    Last edited by PotatoSol; 01-24-2019 at 01:29 AM.

  16. #156

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Hi PotatoSol, good luck in your event. To answer your questions:

    Q: Can you explain why you don't run Engineered Explosives over say Pernicious Deed?

    A: Pernicious deed is a much more powerful card, it hits EVERYTHING instead of just cards at one cmc. It's a bit more mana intensive in most cases, but it does so much more that I have found it to be worth it.

    Q: Also, why do you like the Pulse of Murasa and the SB Island? Do you think some sort of life gain is necessary?

    A: Pulse of Murasa is actually excellent on a number of axes. As you note, it gains life, which is how you close the game against any deck that features lightning bolt. It's easy to grind people out of cards, but you can't always keep force of will in your deck in grindy matchups, so sometimes they win with bolt off the top. Pulse eases that tension. Pulse also gains 20 life against depths decks and is a counter spell for infernal tutor out of ANT. It's far more versatile than it looks at first blush and I'd highly recommend trying it before writing it off.

    I've been playing a sideboard island because when I played it mainboard I found myself boarding out a land in a large number of matchups, I'm not sure what is correct for a general meta, but I'd lean towards 22 lands main in a GP after trying both ways. If your meta has a heavy representation of Mono R prison, Delver, or mana denial decks, I'd just play 22 lands main.

    Q: Ive also been considering some number of pithing needle - have you tested with those? What about other random hate cards - blood sun for example?

    A: I don't play pithing needle because it is just too narrow. The only decks I want it against are depths decks and sneak and show, and it's just a little too low impact for both of those matchups. If you want a more wide range hate element I'd suggest phyrexian revoker, I've had a lot of experience with that card in the past. As for blood sun, I think it's just too low impact, and turning off fetchlands is a real downside.

  17. #157

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    Pulse also gains 20 life against depths decks.
    I don't understand this statement

  18. #158

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by oOOoOphidian View Post
    I don't understand this statement
    It's not literal, I just mean that it forces them to attack twice with marit lage.

  19. #159
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I have seen a ton of the BUGr versions of thieves on this thread. Have the RUG versions gone by the way side?

    I have been very happy with bedlam reveler and a simpler mana base. Intuition package is always on point and helps in sb matches as well.

    I have considered some number of Phoenix`s but that def seems just too cute imho.

    Am I really missing out with all of The hand disruption.. just seems a bit clunky in the mid game.

    Also impending disaster is phenomenal against all the UW miracles lists in my area with the standard 19 land manabases mostly basics.


    1x Barbarian Ring
    3x Bedlam Reveler
    4x Brainstorm
    3x Dack Fayden
    2x Daze
    1x Flusterstorm
    4x Force of Will
    1x Forest
    2x Grim Lavamancer
    3x Grove of the Burnwillows
    2x Intuition
    1x Island
    1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
    1x Life from the Loam
    3x Lightning Bolt
    3x Misty Rainforest
    1x Mountain
    2x Ponder
    3x Punishing Fire
    4x Scalding Tarn
    1x Search for Azcanta
    3x Snapcaster Mage
    2x Spell Pierce
    1x Tropical Island
    1x True-Name Nemesis
    3x Volcanic Island
    2x Wasteland

    Sideboard
    2x Ancient Grudge
    2x Blasphemous Act
    2x Gilded Drake
    3x Impending Disaster
    1x Mindbreak Trap
    2x Pyroblast
    3x Surgical Extraction

    I appreciate all of your time and feedback if you have any. Thank you.

  20. #160

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I've played a RUG list before, my experience was that you need to be a faster deck than versions with black because you have serious problems dealing with TNN and Marit Lage. As such, when I played the RUG build I ran a playset of goyfs. I found that black's draw was far more than just discard, it gave answers to many problems that just don't exist outside of black and white. The discard is also very helpful against combo. I do like the wasteland loam package a lot, and I think that's the real draw to staying out of black.

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