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Thread: Why is Grixis Delver outperforming Czech Pile?

  1. #1
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    Why is Grixis Delver outperforming Czech Pile?

    I've been a long time Grixis Delver player I haven't really played much sense GP Vegas. I was thinking about switching to Czech Pile for an upcoming tournament but the recent results from Eternal weekend and SCG D.C have me reconsidering.

    Grixis Delver is definitely from the Xerox school where as Pile tends more towards midrange. Also Gitaxian Probe is a filthy busted Magic card.
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    Re: Why is Grixis Delver outperforming Czech Pile?

    Overrepresentation? Delver has been around longer so therefor there are more players adept at piloting Delver than there are adept at piloting Czech Pile?
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  3. #3
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    Re: Why is Grixis Delver outperforming Czech Pile?

    Perhaps because of the fast clock - it's still the most reliable way to win against randomness of which Legacy is full. It also ensures you have a game against literally everything. Not saying 4c control is necessarily worse or that Grixis Delver is the best deck, but there's a reason the best Tempo deck of any given time has never fallen out of the top tier no matter the metagame shifts. They just make the best use of the best blue cards and the efficiency and speed nets them plenty of free wins while also keeping them able to fight anything. Even decks specifically designed to attack them such as Chalice-decks tend to have to expect a close game since sometimes you just get Delver, Daze, dead'd and whatever your trump, they have counters. It's just a sleek, solid shell with few weaknesses and lots of choices really catering to experienced players.

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    Re: Why is Grixis Delver outperforming Czech Pile?

    Czech is pretty suspect vs linear combo, and very good at pushing out SFM decks. On the head to head vs Grixis Delver, it largely forced Delver to relegate Therapy to the board as their chance to win became mana denial (Stifle). Notice how Stifle performs better vs the field shaped by K-Comm than it otherwise would. This pattern of Therapy vs Stifle is quite important to understanding Grixis Delver's conversion of free information into win%. Also note that when Therapy was 4x maindeck good, no Stifle in the board; when Stifle (x3) is maindecked, Therapy is still maintained in the board (around 2x) - increased types of interaction vs linear combo.

    @Echelon Czech Pile is not exactly a high-skill deck, the correct lines are most often obvious and become increasingly easy given that the deck is meant to discard both players to hellbent and win a topdeck war - the play patterns differ little from Jund and Shardless. In the case of Shardless: Goyf now SCM, Shardless now Leo/TNN, and Decay now K-Comm - certainly a few other slots changed, but given that people know how to play Shardless, they know how to pilot this deck. I wouldn't attribute people knowing how to play Delver but somehow not Czech as a leading factor.

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    Re: Why is Grixis Delver outperforming Czech Pile?

    Cabal Therapy, Stifle, Daze, Wasteland, and Pyro all work really well together. I'd stick with Grix.

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    Re: Why is Grixis Delver outperforming Czech Pile?

    Grixis Delver is a deck with very few weaknesses, and has 50/50 or better matchups across the board. It is consistent, and Probe gives it the ability to outplay its opponent's. Even when Miracles was top dog, Grixis Delver was still one of the best decks. Without Top, it should be no suprise that Grixis Delver is outperforming everything else.

    Czech Pile isn't comparable to Grixis Delver. Czech Pile has multiple weaknesses that can be exploited. It's manabase and colored source requirements are greedy, the deck has a slow clock, it has tons of dead cards in some matchups (like removal spells vs combo), etc. The deck was great at preying on the metagame when it first hit the scene and became a DTB. Now that people are prepared for it, and the meta has adjusted, it should be no suprise that it's not doing well right now. The deck is still great, and will eventually make a comeback, but it cannot withstand metagame shifts or hate in the same way that old Miracles could or that Grixis Delver can.
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    Re: Why is Grixis Delver outperforming Czech Pile?

    For me its simple, its because of the hype. 4c Control is good don't get me wrong, but it is not as strong as some other options, which would do just fine in a big tournament, the problem is that a lot of people used SB and MD cards that are good against 4c control, not because they expected it to overperform, but because they knew they would face a lot of them, which is true if you get the number of 4c control decks played. I play elves and feel the same, I feel the deck is just well positioned on the meta, but not as much as people are using it, which is why I am constantly facing over SB cards, even some narrow hate like submerge which doesn't justify on where it is positioned on the meta.

    I think 4c control is overly played for its current position on the meta, its a tier 1 deck, but it is in no way a top miracles which some people were considering it. Grixis delver on the other hand is harder to hate out and is also extremely well positioned as it always has been. Another thing is that I really think a lot of good players left 4c control for these competitions because they knew they would face much more hate than it deserved.

    And the last point, delver decks have always been a favorite deck for a lot of experienced players because they don't really have an awful matchup like almost all other decks tier 1 or not. They don't have matchups like burn vs 4c control which are loopsided. Like Medea said with his DnT report that he faced an elves player that made a bunch of mistakes and still lost because the matchup is very loopsided, which hardly would happen if you are on Grixis delver vs a bad matchup, that makes the better players prefer delver because they can navigate bad matchups if the opponent isn't very experienced.

  8. #8

    Re: Why is Grixis Delver outperforming Czech Pile?

    I think both decks have roughly the same % agianst the fiel, but Delver gets a ton of free wins, which 4c almost gets 0.

  9. #9

    Re: Why is Grixis Delver outperforming Czech Pile?

    Grixis Delver has a more streamlined & sculpted game plan. In Legacy it's all about efficiency and clarity of attack. Grixis Delver is arguably the best and most consistent deck in the format.
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