Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 33 of 33

Thread: UW Enduring Ideal

  1. #21

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Stony Silence vs Tron is annoying because one of the best ways to beat them is simply to 'combo off' as quickly as possible but you need Lotus Bloom in order to do that.
    Heroic Intervention is ok but it's only very good vs Oblivion Stone. It does nothing against Ugin and it seems relatively ineffective vs Karn / Ulamog

    Vs control, Silence is okay, but I think maybe Boseiju is just better? I think vs control decks I'd rather just have more bombs like Planeswalkers (e.g. Elspeth Suns Champion) or other threatening Enchantments (e.g. Starfield that you mention, which is also very good with History of Benalia)

    if you're using RIP as an anti-Snapcaster card then Rule of Law / Curse of Exhaustion also work (admittedly less great vs Gurmag Angler, Kolaghans Command, Logic Knot etc). If you only want to hate 1 persons graveyard then Wheel of Sun and Moon is an option.

    I was thinking of History as a maindeck card 2-3x, I don't think it makes sense as a SB card because there are more powerful but narrow things you can bring in for all matchups. This is something I was thinking of:

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 4 Artifact
    4 Lotus Bloom

    // 4 Creature
    4 Wall of Omens

    // 25 Enchantment
    4 Runed Halo
    4 Stasis Snare
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 History of Benalia
    1 Starfield of Nyx
    1 Worship
    1 Endless Horizons
    1 Sphere of Safety
    4 Cast Out
    1 Greater Auramancy / Privileged Position
    1 Dovescape

    // 23 Land
    2 Scattered Groves
    4 Temple of Plenty
    2 Mistveil Plains
    1 Saltcrusted Steppe
    4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
    10 Plains

    // 4 Sorcery
    4 Enduring Ideal

    4 Stasis Snare / 4 Cast Out might be the wrong split of disruption (are you supposed to play Ghostly Prison, Journey to Nowhere, Suppression Field, something else instead?). But I do like the rest of the skeleton. Now all your win conditions are easily hardcastable, can help to stabilize the game leading up to the Enduring Ideal, and give you devotion. The only thing you really lose is the Unlife/Dragon combo, but hopefully either Worship or Sphere of Safety can protect you from most situations. By playing this 'lean' version a drawback is that it might not be taking advantage of Lotus Bloom enough but I don't know what other big spell you would want to play. Maybe 1 Elspeth Suns Champion or something would be ok, or maybe it's fine that the curve isn't too high.

    You could -1 Starfield +1 Form of the Dragon, -1 Worship/Sphere of Safety +1 Phyrexian Unlife and everything else could be mostly the same
    I do like everything that Starfield offers
    Endless Horizons might not be good in which case you don't need to play the cycling lands
    Maybe you only want 1 History and 1 Starfield as winconditions because History isn't a good enough defensive card to warrant 3x, and then you just play extra Ghostly Prisons or whatever instead. (But the goal is to find a balance where you can still win control matchups)
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 06-18-2018 at 02:19 PM.

  2. #22
    Member

    Join Date

    Jan 2013
    Location

    Madison, WI
    Posts

    301

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    I'm not a fan of Wheel of Sun and Moon as an anti-graveyard measure against control decks, specifically the Snapcaster decks. The games tend to grind really long and I just don't want them to be able get rebuys on Cryptic Command. I do think Boseiju, Who Shelters All is probably the key card in the matchup, so maybe my plan for boarding in Expedition Map is sound after all. I've considered Ashes of the Abhorrent to shut off Snapcaster shenanigans, but we don't really get to take advantage of the life-gain clause and it's a less universally applicable piece of graveyard hate.

    The mono-white list is interesting. I think if you start going that route, you can kind of steer into the "pillow fort" archetype a bit more. I still think Ghostly Prison is probably worth the maindeck slots. I think they're generally better than a comparable number of spot removal pieces. Going mono-white, I'd be tempted to include Sun Titan; it plays nicely with History of Benalia, can be cast through Dovescape, and can get you pieces that were countered by Dovescape for value. The only strike against Sun Titan would be that I'd likely want to play Elspeth, Sun's Champion as well. I guess I just wonder if going mono-white makes it correct to forgo Enduring Ideal altogether.

  3. #23

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle View Post
    I'm not a fan of Wheel of Sun and Moon as an anti-graveyard measure against control decks, specifically the Snapcaster decks. The games tend to grind really long and I just don't want them to be able get rebuys on Cryptic Command. I do think Boseiju, Who Shelters All is probably the key card in the matchup, so maybe my plan for boarding in Expedition Map is sound after all. I've considered Ashes of the Abhorrent to shut off Snapcaster shenanigans, but we don't really get to take advantage of the life-gain clause and it's a less universally applicable piece of graveyard hate.

    The mono-white list is interesting. I think if you start going that route, you can kind of steer into the "pillow fort" archetype a bit more. I still think Ghostly Prison is probably worth the maindeck slots. I think they're generally better than a comparable number of spot removal pieces. Going mono-white, I'd be tempted to include Sun Titan; it plays nicely with History of Benalia, can be cast through Dovescape, and can get you pieces that were countered by Dovescape for value. The only strike against Sun Titan would be that I'd likely want to play Elspeth, Sun's Champion as well. I guess I just wonder if going mono-white makes it correct to forgo Enduring Ideal altogether.
    Ashes of the Abhorrent is ok but like I say if you really want to just hate exactly Snapcaster then Curse of Exhaustion is fine. Maybe Ashes is better because it's cheaper and still good vs storm but curse is good vs other combo decks like KCI

    I don't like Sun Titan because there isn't any way to tutor for it and I don't want to enable my opponent's removal by playing 1 random 6drop
    If I had Nahiri the Harbinger in the deck I think it would make sense.
    'Able to be cast through Dovescape' is not a relevant benefit for any card in this deck.
    99% of the time you put Dovescape into play via Ideal, so you can't even cast spells with Dovescape in play.
    In most situations if you draw Dovescape you don't want to hardcast it from your hand because when your opponent has creatures they can cast and you don't, you can easily lose a 'bird race'.
    This means "can return cards countered by Dovescape" is not a relevant benefit either.

    I don't think it makes sense to cut Enduring Ideal (and I don't understand why playing mono white would make that a better choice).
    If you don't play Enduring Ideal then you don't need 7 mana, so you don't need Nykthos, so you don't need to play a ton of enchantments, and I think this just leads down a path to playing a generic UW(r) deck.
    If you think the Leyline/Halo shell is good so you want to keep the rest of the deck mostly the same and have another expensive card as the payoff (e.g. Sun's Champion), this seems bad to me because Enduring Ideal is so much more powerful than any other mono-white card and the deckbuilding cost (having a bunch of enchantments in your deck to tutor for) is not very high when you're already playing a ton of enchantments to enable Nykthos anyway.

    The new Alpine Moon is a good anti-tron option for a red version
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 06-20-2018 at 11:13 AM.

  4. #24

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    I've been looking for an updated and current Enduring Ideal list.

    How's this list been treating you? I'm looking for a starting point to tweak from :)

  5. #25

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by walked View Post
    I've been looking for an updated and current Enduring Ideal list.

    How's this list been treating you? I'm looking for a starting point to tweak from :)
    History of Benalia is actually surprisingly good
    Both what it does and the fact it's a 1WW enchantment are excellent for the deck
    I feel like devotion symbols in this deck are slightly underrated (e.g. I think you need a good reason to play something like Seal Away or Oppressive Rays or Journey to Nowhere instead of Stasis Snare)

    1 Extra W symbol is like having a free Rampant Growth attached to the spell

    One problem is that I still don't think there's a good replacement for the Unlife/Form combo
    No matter whether you try Sphere of Safety or Worship etc somehow your opponent will always bamboozle you
    Unlife is the only thing that's a guaranteed fog for 1 turn (barring first strike shenanigans which basically never happens, and infect, which gets shut down by sphere of safety anyway) and then you get Form the next turn to lock it up
    You can't play Unlife/Solemnity because with Solemnity in play you can't put lore counters on your History of Benalia and then you need to play some other dedicated enchantment wincon that doesn't use counters, so you might as well spend that slot on Form of the Dragon and then play something else instead of Solemnity.

    So just the deck from the previous post -1 Worship -1 Starfield of Nyx +1 Form of the Dragon +1 Phyrexian Unlife

    And I think that manabase with blue lands instead of green (mostly for spreading seas)

  6. #26
    Member

    Join Date

    Jan 2013
    Location

    Madison, WI
    Posts

    301

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    To get a bit specific, I'm looking to figure out how to best approach the Bogles matchup, specifically their use of Gaddock Teeg out of the board. Porphyry Nodes is kind of MVP against Bogles, but it can be played around/through (totem armor allows them to race it). Teeg is close to a knockout against my list, especially since I'm running Cast Out over Banishing Light in the main. The real difficult part is that, while you could just play removal that costs less than 4, Teeg is the only target, so you don't want to get trounced by a bogle with your Teeg hate in hand. I'm also wondering about Seal Away vs Journey to Nowhere; while I like the instant speed of Seal, particularly with the ability to hold up mana that can be used to cycle cards, there are some problematic creatures that are unlikely to attack, especially if your opponent knows/suspect you're on Seal.

    I've been boarding in Aura of Silence, Banishing Light, and Nevermore, but Teeg can come down before Nevermore and Aura is a bit slow to get on board.

    Also, general thoughts on Banishing Light vs Oblivion Ring? I've been favoring Light, because I don't have any way to abuse the separate triggers of O-ring and didn't want to open up the potential (despite how slim of a chance) that the ability to have my own stuff targeted would come back to bite me. That said, I'm wondering if having the ability to exile my own permanent would ever be beneficial (not sure when that would be, but maybe I have Form of the Dragon out and my opponent plays a Leyline of Sanctity, leaving me as the only legal target).

  7. #27

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Banishing Light is better because you can cast it to give yourself 1 devotion even if the opponent has no permanents. Similarly, if your opponent only has 1 creature they can kill it in response to Oblivion Ring with an otherwise-dead removal spell and force you to exile one of your own permanents.

    In the situation you describe you could just Banishing Light the Leyline and I don't think there is any other situation where you would ever want to exile one of your own permanents. (Maybe as a hedge vs Fracturing Gust, but honestly what permanent would you hide that would even make a difference)

    If you want to play an enchantment 'Doom Blade' I still like Stasis Snare
    Otherwise there isn't anything you can play that specifically beats Teeg apart from Path/Journey/Nodes/BanishingLight
    Nodes seems like the best because it also answers the Bogles

    Edit:
    Wondering if Patient Rebuilding can be the blue version of Assemble the Legion
    depends if UU is too hard to cast or not
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 09-12-2018 at 12:21 PM.

  8. #28

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Dawn of Hope seems pretty good

    1W
    Enchantment
    Whenever you gain life you may pay 2, if you do, draw a card.
    3W: Create a 1/1 Soldier with lifelink

    The activated ability is a little bit pricey compared to Luminarch Ascension or Sacred Mesa, but:
    - This can help you stabilize vs aggression, unlike Luminarch
    - Costs 1W (Cheaper than mesa)
    - Doesn't have an upkeep cost so you can freely play it out early to add devotion and not worry about it eating your mana every turn, unlike Mesa
    - Source of card advantage

    I'm going to test it as the backup to form of the Dragon (instead of Sacred Mesa or History of Benalia etc)

  9. #29
    Member

    Join Date

    Jan 2013
    Location

    Madison, WI
    Posts

    301

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Dawn of Hope seems pretty good
    While I like Dawn of Hope as a card, I don't think it fits well into an Ideal deck. I think the creature production aspect is just too slow and mana intensive. Also, making small creatures works counter to Porphyry Nodes, which remains one of my MVP cards. Perhaps if you had a build that played other cheap sources of life gain to enable Dawn of Hope a draw engine, then maybe I could see it pulling its weight.

    I actually top 8'ed a 30+ person PPTQ with an updated version of my list just prior to Guild of Ravnica being released; I'll try to post it tomorrow (it's late for me right now). I was pretty happy with it, but definitely would make at least one adjustment to the main and I'm still questioning the sideboard.

    I'm really curious to see how Assassin's Trophy affects the meta, as that card is really interesting in how it affects the Ideal deck. On one hand, decks packing maindeck enchantment removal is a negative, but the mana ramp can actually work to our advantage. You need to be able to protect your payoffs though, so I think the efficacy of Greater Auramancy and similar cards goes up.

  10. #30
    Member

    Join Date

    Jan 2013
    Location

    Madison, WI
    Posts

    301

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Here's the list I top 8'ed the aforementioned PPTQ with:

    Enduring Ideal
    CREATURES
    1 Heliod, God of the Sun
    SPELLS
    4 Lotus Bloom
    1 Oppressive Rays
    3 Porphyry Nodes
    1 Greater Auramancy
    1 Peace of Mind
    3 Runed Halo
    1 Seal Away*
    3 Spreading Seas
    1 Copy Enchantment
    1 Detention Sphere
    3 Ghostly Prison
    1 Phyrexian Unlife
    1 Stasis Snare
    1 Cast Out
    3 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Sphere of Safety
    1 Dovescape
    4 Enduring Ideal
    1 Form of the Dragon
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    LAND
    1 Adarkar Wastes
    1 Calciform Pools
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Hallowed Fountain
    1 Irrigated Farmland
    1 Mistveil Plains
    4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
    6 Plains
    3 Temple of Triumph

    SIDEBOARD
    2 Aura of Silence
    1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
    1 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Nevermore
    1 Porphyry Nodes
    2 Rest in Peace
    1 Rule of Law
    1 Sacred Ground
    1 Silence
    1 Spreading Seas
    2 Stony Silence
    1 Torpor Orb

    *Seal Away has since been replaced by Journey to Nowhere. While the instant speed of Seal Away was a nice option to have, the targeting restriction was more relevant. With opponents being taxed by Ghostly Prison, it only made it less likely that they'd attack with the creature you wanted to hit with Seal Away. Being able to get Gaddock Teeg or Thalia, Guardian of Thraben off the table can be incredibly important, so I've given the nod to Journey.

    My only losses on the day were to the same player, once in the swiss and again in the first round of top 8, as they were 1st cede and I was 8th; they were on 4 Color Saheeli. While that wasn't a matchup I had explicitly tested, the games were pretty interesting. In some cases, it was a pure race to see who could go off first, but at other times, the games became extremely drawn out. Ultimately, I succumbed to an Acidic Slime that was copied multiple times, destroying my soft lock pieces. Torpor Orb out of the board would have been clutch, but it didn't show up in time.

    I'm pretty happy with the maindeck configuration. The primary thing I'm hoping to find going forward is an efficient source of card draw/selection. I'm much less set on the sideboard. Mostly, the board included the 4th copies of powerful, but situational, pieces from the maindeck and the typical/expected hosers (Stony and RIP). There are lots of options available to narrowly target specific strategies, but choosing those cards leaves holes in the overall game plan. I've moved on to other decks for the time being, but I'm sure I'll cycle back soon enough.
    Last edited by CaptainTwiddle; 10-13-2018 at 01:17 PM.

  11. #31

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    I agree that if you have a specific creature you want to get off the table (like Teeg) then Journey is better than Seal Away, but the flash removal in general is good with Ghostly Prison: you get to kill their creature after they decide which one they want to attack with. If you Journey one of their guys at sorcery speed then they can just hit you with the other one. (Also like I have said before I think Stasis Snare gives you the best of both of these worlds while also giving an extra devotion. I don't really feel like I'm punished enough for the higher cmc that I'd rather play Journey to Nowhere)

    Don't all your criticisms of Dawn of Hope also apply to Heliod? That's the card it's competing with. How important do you find the maindeck spreading seas?

  12. #32
    Member

    Join Date

    Jan 2014
    Location

    Orange County, CA
    Posts

    482

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Love this deck and really want it to be competitive. I was playing a version with a red splash, but I found that most of the red cards were sb and not that useful. Blue seems like a much better splash. In the list above, I see you're running Temple of Triumph over Temple of Enlightenment. Is that so you can hardcast Form of the Dragon if you naturally draw it?

  13. #33

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by TLK View Post
    Love this deck and really want it to be competitive. I was playing a version with a red splash, but I found that most of the red cards were sb and not that useful. Blue seems like a much better splash. In the list above, I see you're running Temple of Triumph over Temple of Enlightenment. Is that so you can hardcast Form of the Dragon if you naturally draw it?
    That's 99.9% a typo

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)