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Thread: UW Enduring Ideal

  1. #61

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    x4 Birth of Meletis x0 Wall of Omens seems really weird to me
    If we assume that etb tutor 1 plains is exactly equal to drawing 1 card then

    Meletis Pros:
    - Gain 2 life
    - If they use creature removal on the wall you still get 1 devotion for a bit

    Wall of Omens Pros
    - You don't have to wait 1 turn to actually get the wall (can block immediately)
    - The nontoken permanent doesn't self-destruct after a few turns

    The lifegain vs getting the immediate wall seems about equivalent but getting to keep the non-token permanent forever seems like a big upside in favour of Wall of Omens. Not only does it mean you keep the devotion forever but also if you draw e.g. Teferi/AstralDrift/Yorion much later you still have a value permanent to bounce/flicker.

    And then importantly I also think that etb draw 1 is actually better than etb tutor a plains.

    Another idea for the yorion build is to play a SFM package
    - SFM->Skull is a fine wincon for the kind of midrange/control backup plan with thin ice / teferi etc etc in the lategame with Nykthos mana you can bounce and replay it
    - Yorion can blink skull to reset it or blink SFM to search another equip
    - Yorion out of the SB gives reliable access to a flying creature to equip
    - SFM can search for a white equip e.g. Maul of the Skyclave to add more devotion

  2. #62
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    x4 Birth of Meletis x0 Wall of Omens seems really weird to me
    If we assume that etb tutor 1 plains is exactly equal to drawing 1 card then

    Meletis Pros:
    - Gain 2 life
    - If they use creature removal on the wall you still get 1 devotion for a bit

    Wall of Omens Pros
    - You don't have to wait 1 turn to actually get the wall (can block immediately)
    - The nontoken permanent doesn't self-destruct after a few turns

    The lifegain vs getting the immediate wall seems about equivalent but getting to keep the non-token permanent forever seems like a big upside in favour of Wall of Omens. Not only does it mean you keep the devotion forever but also if you draw e.g. Teferi/AstralDrift/Yorion much later you still have a value permanent to bounce/flicker.

    And then importantly I also think that etb draw 1 is actually better than etb tutor a plains.
    My experience is that tutoring up a plains is actually better than drawing a blind card, as we want to hit our land drop every turn. Yes, if the game draws out, which it does do with some regularity, drawing an action card would be nice, but I have Omen of the Sea and Mazemind Tome for that. If I were playing Astral Drift, I'd likely want Wall of Omens, but as is, I've been happier with Birth. That said, I am considering trimming a copy, but I'm not sure for what. I suppose I could try a 3/1 split between Birth and Wall.

    Edit: Tried 3/1 split on Birth/Wall of Omens & really liking it. I love to have one Birth in the first 2-3 turns, but Wall is often better thereafter.
    Last edited by CaptainTwiddle; 12-25-2020 at 06:05 PM.

  3. #63

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    My idea for a yorion build

    31 Lands
    1 Hall of Heliod
    1 Mistveil Plains
    1 Arch of Orazca
    4 Temple
    4 Nykthos
    20 Plains

    4 Wall of Omens
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Skyclave Apparition

    4 Lotus Bloom
    4 Enduring Ideal

    4 On Thin Ice
    4 Runed Halo
    4 Astral Drift
    4 Leyline of Sanctity

    1 Batterskull
    1 Godsend / Maul of the Skyclaves
    1 Extra equipment (e.g. Sofai)

    1 Dovescape
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    1 Unlife
    1 Form of the Dragon
    1 Sphere of Safety

    +5
    - Cast Out
    - Nevermore
    - Extra creatures (not sure what, but there is maybe a lack of things to put equipment on)
    - Extra wincon (Heliod etc)
    - Exclusion Ritual / ECD (maybe a bit slow)
    Also worth considering cutting 1-2 plains for e.g. Temple 5+, Boseiju, Castle Ardenvale

    I really think this has a lot of potential because the threat density of the usual build is too low.
    Too many games with like 10+ mana and a stable board and not drawing ideal for several turns and just dying to something random.
    Just having a big flyer in the command zone is already nice for that and Yorion has pretty decent interaction with other good cards (Wall, Apparition etc)

    SFM is a pretty divergent plan from Ideal but I think equipment are important for making Yorion more of a threat. Another option is to play Auramancer, which can be a draw engine with Astral Drift, then play more e.g. Cast Out to have targets for it, play ECD to bring back with it, etc, but this doesn't seem as powerful (also I like that SFM makes the deck more proactive). You could also just fill the deck with a bunch of extra enchantments that don't have any particular synergy with Yorion (Nevermore etc) but idk if this is effective/necessary.

  4. #64
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    I noticed an Enduring Ideal deck top 8'ed an online Prelim recently, here's the list:

    Enduring Ideal by Rinko - 6th place MTGO Prelim 6-JAN-2021
    2 Skyclave Apparition
    3 Lotus Bloom
    3 Oust
    4 Silence
    2 Treasure Map
    1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
    1 Blood Moon
    2 Deafening Clarion
    3 Nine Lives
    2 Phyrexian Unlife
    3 Solemnity
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Dovescape
    4 Enduring Ideal
    2 Form of the Dragon
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    2 Arid Mesa
    4 Marsh Flats
    1 Mistveil Plains
    2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
    6 Plains
    4 Sacred Foundry
    3 Temple of Triumph

    Sideboard
    1 Word of Seizing
    3 Torpor Orb
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    4 Grand Abolisher
    3 Containment Priest
    2 Boil
    1 Wheel of Sun and Moon


    I think this list is interesting; there's a lot that I like about it and some things that I don't quite understand. I'm just starting to test it "as is" before making any changes to see if there are some factors I hadn't considered, but these are my initial thoughts:

    Pros - I like the inclusion of Solemnity with both Phyrexian Unlife and Nine Lives as combo pieces. Having those locks available at a reasonable mana cost makes the deck much less reliant on resolving Enduring Ideal. I also like that leaning into red a bit allows for Form of the Dragon to more realistically be hardcast. Deafening Clarion is a decent sweeper, but is going to be meta-dependent. Maindeck Blood Moon is a way to steal some games.

    Cons - I question some of the card choices. Oust seems OK, but I think I'd rather have On Thin Ice or Chained to the Rocks, as they add to your devotion, but both would probably require some adjusting to the mana base. I'm not a huge fan of Silence, as adding an 8th mana to to force through Ideal is often a pretty big ask, delaying your casting by a turn. Perhaps it belongs in the sideboard? Though this board already has Grand Abolisher. Treasure Map is kind of odd in this deck. My first thought was that it seemed inferior to Mazemind Tome, but then I realized how each card interacts with Solemnity; Tome becomes useless, whereas Map still lets you pay 1 to scry, though it won't be able to transform. So, I guess we're stuck with Map in that slot, which isn't terrible, as flipping the Map (assuming you don't have Solemnity in play) could get you a needed mana boost to resolve a big spell.

    Overall, I do think I like this direction for the deck. I think some numbers could probably be adjusted and there are certainly other cards that can be considered, but the Solemnity combos do seem like a solid angle.

  5. #65

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    The white rune from kaldheim could be a decent pick for the Yorion build too:

    Rune of Sustenance 1W
    Enchantment - Aura Rune
    Enchant Permanent
    When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card.
    As long as enchanted permanent is a creature, it has lifelink.
    As long as enchanted permanent is an equipment, it has "Equipped creature has lifelink"

    - On turn 2 you can just put it on a land or whatever to draw a card and gain 1 devotion, then later in the game when you play Yorion you can flicker the rune to draw another card and give lifelink to Yorion
    - You can put it on your opponnent's Death Shadow / Scourge of the Skyclaves as a pseudo removal

    [In a fringe case if you are playing SFM you could put it onto your Sword of Fire and Ice or something but this doesn't seem too amazing or likely]

    31 Lands
    4 Wall of Omens
    4 Skyclave Apparition
    4 Bloom
    4 Ideal
    4 Ice
    4 Rune
    4 Halo
    4 Drift
    4 Leyline
    5x Ideal Toolbox (Dragon, Dove, Splendor, Unlife, Sphere)
    [72]
    So one option for the remaining 8 cards would be like Heliod + 4 SFM + 3 Equips or something like that but I would be willing to consider other alternatives (like a bigger Enduring Ideal toolbox or some Cast Out / Path to Exile)
    Another option: 4 Ranger Captain of Eos and then like 1 Giant Killer 1 Weathered Wayfarer 1 Thraben Inspector or something weird like this
    Other option: 4 Search for Glory 1 Elspeth Conquers Death 3 Something (in a pinch it can already search for On Thin Ice / Plains)

    Edit:
    Actually I think I do quite like the search for Glory idea. The fact that it searches for any legendary permanent means it can also search for Boseiju, Hall of Heliod, and Nykthos, which is quite a lot of utility. Add ECD and Heliod in addition to the aforementioned On Thin Ice and there are a good range of options for different situations.

    The other 4 slots are just 4 Path to Exile, which are the "best" removal spell for a modern white control deck. I avoided playing Path in the past because it puts you 'down a card' and doesn't add any devotion but with Yorion in the deck you have a reliable way to build into a fat Mulldrifter if you stall at 5 mana, so this should be less of an issue.

    [31 Lands]
    4 Temple of Triumph
    4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
    1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    1 Mistveil Plains
    1 Arch of Orazca
    19 Snow-Covered Plains -> Can possibly carefully trim these for a couple extra temples or a Castle Ardenvale or maybe a storage land / Emeria the Sky Ruin, Field of Ruin maybe who knows

    4 Wall of Omens
    4 Skyclave Apparition
    1 Heliod, God of the Sun

    4 Lotus Bloom
    4 Path to Exile
    2 Search for Glory (possibly you could trim stuff to fit 1-2 more copies of this but you don't want to have too many of these clunking your draws by spending 3 mana to not affect the board, especially when you have the 3 mana play of wish for Yorion as well)
    4 Enduring Ideal

    4 On Thin Ice
    4 Rune of Sustenance
    4 Runed Halo
    1 Phyrexian Unlife
    4 Astral Drift
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Sphere of Safety
    1 Elspeth Conquers Death
    1 Dovescape
    1 Form of the Dragon
    1 Overwhelming Splendor

    ------

    SB ideas:
    1 Yorion (companion)
    Grand Abolisher
    Mana Tithe / Lapse of Certainty
    Generous Gift
    Nevermore / Gideon's Intervention
    Worship
    RIP

    Options Tutorable by SFG:
    Reidane (for the Shield side which might be good vs Burn / Storm / Ballista Combo etc)
    Honden of Cleansing Fire / Lyra Dawnbringer / Something that gains life
    2WW Linvala vs any kind of coco/heliod etc nonsense (this one seems pretty good)
    Iona? If there is a good reason maybe
    Elspeth Sun's Chamption / Similar Big PW card
    The Immortal Sun?
    Mangara? Just to try stone rain a tronland or something. Bit slow (but it does combo with astral drift which is funny). I really want a better tutor target to beat tron but I'm not sure what, I don't think there is some kind of Legendary Mindcensor etc and turn 4 is kind of slow anyway (it might be possible to try to cheese wins by going turn 3 search for Karn liberated or Immortal Sun or some other big thing, play it on turn 4 with lotus accel. In which case if you were planning on casting it off lotus there is more freedom with the colours. Not sure if this is a good idea either, might just have to accept that the matchup is not salvageable). The other option would be to have like a massive transformational sb into taxes with Leonin Arbiter etc but idk if this is a good idea either.
    Urza's Ruinous Blast (don't think this makes sense in the deck but it's interesting to be aware of and there is Yorion to enable it)

    Edit:
    Still thinking about those last few slots (Heliod + ECD + 2 Search for Glory)
    I really like the idea of playing 1 Skybind, the floor on it is not *terrible* (okay 3WW for a sorcery Cloudshift is not great but at least you get 2 devotion) but the loop with Yorion seems probably pretty backbreaking in a bunch of matchups
    Heliod is so mana intensive that it's not very good at stabilizing a board by itself so that seems like an okay swap for Skybind, but e.g. then search for glory gets worse without heliod as an option, so maybe you can play a different card in those 2 slots that has more immediate impact and more synergy with Skybind like Cavalier of Dawn or Arcanists Owl etc

    Edit again:
    In my first event trying this I used a version with instead of the 2 search for glory and 1 Heliod maindeck it had a Serra Benevolent a Cavalier of Dawn and a Skybind just to try and get more mileage out of the Yorion.
    In my experience this probably felt incorrect and after the event I wished I had used the original list above with the Search for Glory idea. The other 4-5 drops I was playing clunked up my hand too much and the ability of SFG to search for Nykthos/Lands would have been very impactful in several situations.

    I cut the Temples for Field of ruins too which weren't super useful in the matchups I faced but they should help a bit vs Tron, and CIPT lands are worse when you have more cantrips like Rune of Sustenance and also Yorion because you generally have more things to be spending your mana on

    I'm also more attracted to the idea of playing damping sphere in the sb. In the non-yorion version of the deck it felt like an awkward idea because it disables Nykthos but with the Yorion support you have more card advantage to naturally draw 7 lands and the flying bird noodle to act as a wincon if your opponent is stuck under the sphere (good against both tron and amulet too).

    So with the search for glory maindeck something like
    1 Yorion
    4 Grand Abolisher
    4 Damping Sphere
    1-2 Reidane / Linvala / Lyra
    1 Nevermore/Gideons Intervention
    3-4 X (Unsure, need to take time to sit down and figure out more of a SB map)
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 05-03-2021 at 03:16 AM.

  6. #66

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    The spoilers for the new DND theme set include a card that's probably playable

    "Portable Hole"
    Artifact
    {W}
    When portable hole ETB, exile target nonland permanent with cmc 2 or less an opponent controls until portable hole leaves the battlefield.
    Lack of instant speed compared to path could be a drawback in some spots but it also doesn't give the opponent a land and gives you a devotion, and it can hit a few important noncreature permanents like Wrenn / Amulet etc. When it's released I will probably make that swap

  7. #67
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    The spoilers for the new DND theme set include a card that's probably playable: Portable Hole



    Lack of instant speed compared to path could be a drawback in some spots but it also doesn't give the opponent a land and gives you a devotion, and it can hit a few important noncreature permanents like Wrenn / Amulet etc. When it's released I will probably make that swap
    Portable Hole seems great. Path has kind of been down in terms of playability of late, as giving an additional land to some decks can be extremely punishing (vs. Prowess decks, for example). I suspect the fact that PH hits nonland permanents more than makes up for the targeting restriction of mana value 2 or less (it can hit Wrenn and Six, Aether Vial, Utopia Sprawl, and most creatures that are going to be relevant in the early parts of a game).

    Another card I have my eye on is Brainstone from MH2 [since the image isn't linked at time of posting: Artifact for 1. 2, T, sac: draw 3, put 2 back on top of your library]. It's a bit mana intensive, but not horribly so, and being able to put your Enduring Ideal targets back into your library is something that I've wanted for a long time. Between fetchlands and The Birth of Meletis, there should be ample shuffle effects to get max value. I'll definitely be testing it out in some capacity.

    I've been reassessing the archetype as a whole and thinking about more of the fundamentals. My starting point is to be able to cast Enduring Ideal as quickly, with a relatively high a level of consistency, as possible. This means being able to generate 7 mana ASAP. As far as I've been able to figure, turn 4 seems like the realistic threshold here, which can be achieved most simply by suspending Lotus Bloom on turn 1 and hitting your land drop each turn. Alternatively, you could generate 7 mana by hitting your first 4 land drops with the last one being Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, assuming you manage to add W, WW, WWW to your devotion on the first 3 turns, which is pretty unrealistic, though freely deployed Leyline of Sanctity can make this somewhat more likely. Ultimately, I don't think that having Enduring Ideal ready to cast on turn 4 is going to be good enough on its own a fair amount of the time, though it obviously depends what you've played up to that point. This is why I've been liking the Solemnity + Nine Lives/Phyrexian Unlife combo, as it's a fairly effective lock that you can just play out naturally and the individual pieces can buy time to resolve Ideal. So, really, it's 1 and 2 drops where I find myself hung up. Having permanents to play that add to devotion and also help dig/filter to more relevant cards and ensure land drops continue to be made seems key, but options are somewhat limited. Alternatively, cards that interact with opposing threats can occupy this space and buy time, which translates into seeing additional cards over the course of the game.

    With white 1 drops specifically, there are some good options for interactive pieces (e.g. On Thin Ice or Portable Hole), but those are only worth playing on turn 1 if you're on the draw and your opponent has deployed a target. As for white 2 drops, Wall of Omens and The Birth of Meletis are the frontrunners. I generally have liked Wall of Omens more, as you get a blocker immediately and it adds a pip of devotion. The Birth of Meletis grabbing a land is really nice, as are the wall that it makes later, and the life gain is welcome as well, but the saga being sacrificed to its own trigger make it an unreliable devotion enabler. One thing that does make me potentially lean towards Birth is that I think I want to run Torpor Orb in the sideboard, as beating the Ephemerate decks feels nearly impossible (Overwhelming Splendor is your only hope). Runed Halo is a great devotion enabler that, while not providing card draw/filtering, can neutralize one or more threats and buy you time. The biggest downside to the Halo is simply that it is a narrow answer that won't be particularly good against some decks, though it can be almost game winning on its own against others.

    Looking outside of white, we get some solid options in things like Omen of Sea and Teferi, Time Raveler, but going into additional colors makes the devotion lines even less reliable. So, that begs the question: Is it worth going into another color and slowing the deck down to be more reliable? I think the answer may well be yes, but part of the added color providing increased card selection means that we are going to want potent options to select from to buy time.

    TL;DR - When I started brewing this deck, I didn't realize how each of the various axes on which it is constructed really pull on the others. The simple fix would be getting some new white cards that provide the card draw/selection we want while simultaneously contributing to devotion, but that seems like a big ask that likely breaks the color pie.

  8. #68

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    I've been reassessing the archetype as a whole and thinking about more of the fundamentals. My starting point is to be able to cast Enduring Ideal as quickly, with a relatively high a level of consistency, as possible. This means being able to generate 7 mana ASAP. As far as I've been able to figure, turn 4 seems like the realistic threshold here, which can be achieved most simply by suspending Lotus Bloom on turn 1 and hitting your land drop each turn. Alternatively, you could generate 7 mana by hitting your first 4 land drops with the last one being Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, assuming you manage to add W, WW, WWW to your devotion on the first 3 turns, which is pretty unrealistic, though freely deployed Leyline of Sanctity can make this somewhat more likely. Ultimately, I don't think that having Enduring Ideal ready to cast on turn 4 is going to be good enough on its own a fair amount of the time, though it obviously depends what you've played up to that point. This is why I've been liking the Solemnity + Nine Lives/Phyrexian Unlife combo, as it's a fairly effective lock that you can just play out naturally and the individual pieces can buy time to resolve Ideal. So, really, it's 1 and 2 drops where I find myself hung up. Having permanents to play that add to devotion and also help dig/filter to more relevant cards and ensure land drops continue to be made seems key, but options are somewhat limited. Alternatively, cards that interact with opposing threats can occupy this space and buy time, which translates into seeing additional cards over the course of the game.
    Yes I had a big discussion about this on the Enduring Ideal discord which I found recently

    Basically in my opinion the deck can be thought of in roughly 3 different ways
    1. Mono White Ad Nauseam
    2. Mono White Scapeshift
    3. Mono White Splinter Twin (the 2 card combo being Solemnity + Unlife/Nine)

    I think #2 (Scapeshift) is the most effective approach, and more importantly I think it's very bad when you try to merge these together

    For example let's say you decide that you want to play the "Splinter Twin" combo in the maindeck
    - Wouldn't you want to play cards like Serum Visions etc to make sure that you can find this combo reliably? Rather than just assume you will naturally topdeck your way into it, which will probably be too inconsistent
    - If the combo is so good that it effectively wins the game, why does your "actual" wincondition need to be an overwhelmingly powerful 7 mana sorcery? Rather than something like (for example) Dawn of Hope or Sigil of Empty Throne or a similar card which can eventually close the game out but has more application in the early turns (i.e. does something before you get to 7 mana).
    - If the combo is not so good that it effectively wins the game, is it really worth attempting in the first place? Considering the number of times you will draw only half of the combo and have that card not do anything

    I see some people playing decks that play many copies of solemnity + unlife/nine in the maindeck but also play almost 0 library manipulation and also have Ideal as the wincondition, why? It doesn't make sense. If you want your wincondition to be a sorcery that wins instantly but costs a million mana and requires a bunch of deckbuilding concessions then you want to make sure all of your defense/interaction leading up to it is as reliable as possible. You could easily have a build of Scapeshift splashing W for Solemnity/Unlife to prevent all damage and stall the game until it gets 7 lands to cast Scapeshift but when you put this combo in the context of another deck like this the idea seems more obviously ridiculous. All the interaction played by those decks is stuff that just "works" by itself (e.g. the 5C BTL builds right now are playing some mix of Helix/Bolt/Guile/Path/Remand). The comparision to this deck for options that just "work" by themselves is Runed Halo, Skyclave Apparition, Thin Ice, Wall of Omens etc. Sure you don't instantly win when you Lightning Helix your opp creature, just like you don't instantly win when you name Stormwing Entity with Runed Halo, but you have built your deck with the plan to win of casting the big sorcery. Shoving multiple winconditions (2 card combo + the big sorcery) into 1 deck doesn't increase the winrate, it just means when you need to assemble your combo you have a big sorcery stuck in your hand or your Lotus Blooms doing nothing and when you want to survive to cast your big sorcery you have some combo piece stuck in your hand doing nothing.

    I think a deck built around the Solemnity combo can work but I don't think it should have the card Enduring Ideal (or Lotus Bloom) in it. (Explained above)

    I think you could build Enduring Ideal like an Ad Nauseam deck (i.e. you minimize interaction with the opponent and instead play more cantrips/rituals (Pentad Prism) to combo off faster and more consistently) but then for a deck like this Enduring Ideal doesn't seem a better wincondition than actual Ad Nauseam (Pact of Negation) or even maybe Dragonstorm.

    So with the scapeshift approach:
    - The ultimate gameplan is play the big sorcery.
    - Because you instantly win when you play the big sorcery your disruption doesn't need to totally annihilate your opponent's gameplan by itself, it just needs to be enough to survive to play the big sorcery.
    - You can have some "ad nauseam hands" where you suspend lotus turn 1 and win on turn 4 but this is just something you luck into sometimes and can't even pretend it's close to the plan A.
    - The upside compared to the card Scapeshift is that rather than play cards like Explore you have devotion permanents, which can be powerful disruption AND ramp. Lotus Bloom costs 0 mana to play and adds 3 mana to the big sorcery, compared to Explore which costs 2 mana and only adds 1.
    - The downside is that the deck is less consistently proactive than Scapeshift and has more polarized matchups (You can play against matchups where the effects of Leyline/Halo don't do anything, and then they don't work as ramp if you don't find a Nykthos. Explore is just generic ramp that helps you to cast your 3 and 4 drops but using Bloom feels very bad (-1 card) to cast anything that's not Enduring Ideal. Using Lotus also makes you weak to counterspells, and so does having no (or bad) backup winconditions in the deck, e.g. the BTL shift decks can also play Omnath or use BTL for Tibalt if they don't have enough lands yet, or can win with Dryad into natural Valakuts without a Scapeshift, whereas this deck is maybe playing like 1 maindeck Heliod or something to win outside of resolving Ideal, it's very 1-dimensional).

    Another card I have my eye on is Brainstone from MH2 [since the image isn't linked at time of posting: Artifact for 1. 2, T, sac: draw 3, put 2 back on top of your library]. It's a bit mana intensive, but not horribly so, and being able to put your Enduring Ideal targets back into your library is something that I've wanted for a long time. Between fetchlands and The Birth of Meletis, there should be ample shuffle effects to get max value. I'll definitely be testing it out in some capacity.
    I don't think the card is terrible but I suspect it costs too much mana.

    [31 Lands]
    4 Nykthos
    4 Field of Ruin
    1 Arch of Orazca
    1 Boseiju
    1 Hall of Heliod
    19 Snow Plains
    1 Mistveil Plains

    4 Wall of Omens
    4 Skyclave Apparition
    1 Heliod God of the Sun

    4 Path to Exile / Portable Hole
    4 On Thin Ice
    4 Runed Halo
    4 Rune of Sustenance
    4 Astral Drift
    4 Leyline of Sanctity

    4 Enduring Ideal
    4 Lotus Bloom
    2 Search for Glory

    1 Phyrexian Unlife
    1 Sphere of Safety
    1 Elspeth Conquers Death
    1 Dovescape
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    1 Form of the Dragon

    SB
    1 Yorion
    4 Grand Abolisher
    4 Damping Sphere
    1 Reidane
    1 Lyra
    1 Serra Benevolent
    1 Elspeth Conquers Death
    1 Nevermore / Gideons Intervention
    1 ???? Linvala / Worship / RIP / idk

    The SB 1 ofs are a bit dubious, trying to decide whether to maximise the utility of Search for Glory and have more proactive cards against midrange/control vs playing like 4x RIP or something

    Also I realised that Nyx Lotus is legendary which could be an interesting SFG target too but probably just searching for Nykthos is good enough

  9. #69

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Has anyone tried splashing black for curse of misfortunes? It ups your tutor to target ratio since a lot of the good big enchantments are curses anyways. This would let you play more disruption or ramp instead of cantrips. Elspeth conquers death could easily be cruel reality and sphere of sanctity could be deaths hold. It improves your threat density too. Also 5 mana<<7 mana


    1 card comboes >> 2 card comboes in a deck that doesn’t have much selection.

    Totally biased ofc

    Honor-Worn Shaku plus legendary enchantments could be a possible third source of on brand acceleration.

  10. #70

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Has anyone tried splashing black for curse of misfortunes? It ups your tutor to target ratio since a lot of the good big enchantments are curses anyways. This would let you play more disruption or ramp instead of cantrips. Elspeth conquers death could easily be cruel reality and sphere of sanctity could be deaths hold. It improves your threat density too. Also 5 mana<<7 mana


    1 card comboes >> 2 card comboes in a deck that doesn’t have much selection.

    Totally biased ofc

    Honor-Worn Shaku plus legendary enchantments could be a possible third source of on brand acceleration.
    I think it's a slightly (totally?) different deck
    Even though Ideal is much harder to cast than Misfortune it's also meaningfully better by far in many situations
    In my mind Curse of Misfortune could be effective as the top end of some kind of more midrangey GB Ponza shell (similar to how GR builds play cards like Glorybringer or Elder Gargaroth or Lukka)
    You can have a more "normal" deck without needing Lotus or Nykthos, which is an upside
    It could definitely be a viable alternative especially against metagames where you don't expect cards like Leyline of Sanctity to be good

    The Shaku is a fun idea but I don't think there are enough good legendary cards to combo with it

  11. #71
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Yes I had a big discussion about this on the Enduring Ideal discord which I found recently

    Basically in my opinion the deck can be thought of in roughly 3 different ways
    1. Mono White Ad Nauseam
    2. Mono White Scapeshift
    3. Mono White Splinter Twin (the 2 card combo being Solemnity + Unlife/Nine)
    This whole post was really insightful. If we assess various builds of Enduring Ideal in the context of these 3 archetypes, I think the deck is essentially just a worse version of each (and even though Splinter Twin isn't an actual deck currently, there are other A+B combo decks that seem like they perform better that what we're looking at here). So, with that in mind, I think if we're realistically going to make Ideal competitive, we need to find a different path.

    When I top 8'ed a PTQ with Ideal, it was with a build that is noted earlier in this thread. That was before Nine Lives was printed and my deck was running things like Ghostly Prison, Detention Sphere, and Runed Halo. If I had to describe the archetype or general play pattern of that build, I'd say it was sort of a "build a prison" concept. Sure, I could cast a turn 4 Ideal, which made assembling a hard lock pretty easy most of the time, but the way many games played out was that everything I committed to the board was another obstacle my opponent had to work through or around. By making my opponents play on my terms, they lost the advantage that their faster decks would normally have, and eventually the game would be sealed in my favor because they simply couldn't execute their offense effectively. Against control decks, I'd bring in anti-counter magic cards, but also use things like Mistveil Plains to just grind them out. It's also notable that maindeck Leyline of Sanctity will effectively win a surprising amount of games. Anyway, I think that this general strategy of throwing down various roadblocks until they form an impenetrable fortress may be the 4th path that Ideal needs to take to be relevant.

    Some thoughts on Lotus Bloom...

    Bloom is pretty polarizing. It's generally great to see in your opening hand, but feels pretty bad to draw after turn 1. That stated, I really am still surprised by how often I use Bloom not to cast Ideal, but Form of the Dragon. Getting RRR from Bloom is pretty great, as it lets you avoid going too heavy into red with your mana base. I really don't like the idea of playing cards that can't be cast, particularly when those cards are big game-winning effects. So, despite the pitfalls, I'm inclined to stick with Lotus Bloom in my builds. Now, something to consider or look for going forward, would be cards that allow us to get Lotus Bloom into play without having to suspend it. There are options that exist currently, but none of them seems quite right. As Foretold could potentially be route worth exploring, but there are already decks built around that card which seem to use it more effectively. Plus, it doesn't let us deploy Bloom any earlier; it just lets us do it on the normal schedule of turn 4, even if we drew it after the first turn.

    One other avenue I haven't really explored is playing additional/alternate ramp. Pentad Prism is most explosive. Mind Stone offers card draw. Various Talismans or Signets could help with splash colors. I guess the idea of playing more permanents as enablers makes me nervous, as cards like Oblivion Stone are already pretty scary (and I do like the option of running Stony Silence in the board, even if it is a nonbo with Bloom).

  12. #72

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle View Post
    Anyway, I think that this general strategy of throwing down various roadblocks until they form an impenetrable fortress may be the 4th path that Ideal needs to take to be relevant.
    This is just an illusion. The cards you describe (Halo, Ghostly Prison, Detention Sphere) don't create any sort of invincible fortress

    - If you give your opponent enough time they will draw lands to pay for ghostly prison
    - If you give your opponent enough time they will draw another threat with a different name to the one that you named with runed halo
    - If you give your opponent enough time they will draw another threat to replace the one that you exiled with detention sphere

    It's no different to the play pattern of any other combo control deck where if you give your opponent enough time they will draw a threat to replace the one hit by Path to Exile / Lightning Bolt

    I.e. the deck you are describing is still essentially the Scapeshift version of the deck

    And then as a reminder, if you do have the cards in the deck to build a real invincible fortress, then why do you need to play a 7 mana win condition on top of that? If the fortress is really "invincible" then your opponent should not be able to win anymore once assembled and then you can win incidentally with some other cheaper card (which goes back to what I said before about how having multiple Solemnity + Ninelives and Enduring Ideal in the same deck doesn't make much sense to me)

    The best 2 mana "signet" effect for the deck might actually be Treasure Map.

    A build of the deck without Lotus Bloom might be totally viable and I have tested it in the past. In a way playing Bloom is trying to merge the Ad Nauseam and the Scapeshift gameplans together (Lotus Bloom is absolutely not a good card for any kind of control deck) which (consistent with what I said before) I don't like much, but I also don't like having to rely on Nykthos as the only ramp to the 7 mana card.

    You could take the build I have in the previous post and go -4 Bloom +2 Search for Glory +1 Nyx Lotus +1 something and it might be ok.
    Maybe 4 Search for Glory isn't even necessary.

    Bloom gets a little bit better with the Yorion build though because in situations without access to Enduring Ideal you have more stuff to spend the excess mana on.

    I don't think Stony Silence is even a good card in modern atm, it doesn't really do anything against any meta strategy except
    1) Ballista
    2) Map/Sphere/Star
    3) any rando still trying to make Hardened Scales work

    You have other tools against ballista and against Tron stony silence isn't even super effective anyway, if you want a card that's basically only good against that matchup there are other better options available

    Edit
    You could take the build I have in the previous post and go -4 Bloom +2 Search for Glory +1 Nyx Lotus +1 something and it might be ok.
    This idea is actually more and more appealing the more that I think about it
    With the last card as 1 Reidane
    Hopefully 4x 3 cmc tutor isn't too many ways of spending mana that doesn't affect the board, if not then I think this could be quite a good approach
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 05-19-2021 at 09:40 AM.

  13. #73
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    ...if you do have the cards in the deck to build a real invincible fortress, then why do you need to play a 7 mana win condition on top of that? If the fortress is really "invincible" then your opponent should not be able to win anymore once assembled...

    The best 2 mana "signet" effect for the deck might actually be Treasure Map....
    The value of Ideal in the "impenetrable fortress" is that the final piece that truly locks the game up varies depending on the match up. Since the main lock pieces are 6-8 mana spells, it's more efficient to play Ideal, to save deck slots & even mana (in the case of Overwhelming Splendor).

    As for decks eventually finding a way around obstacles, yes, that can happen, but the idea is that by the time they get over hurdle A, there's a different hurdle B they more have to contend with. Eventually, the hurdle are too high or numerous. Also, specifically thinking about Runed Halo, think about how many decks actually only play a few different wincons. Prowess and Death's Shadow decks, for example, only play like 3-4 different creatures. Halo is also amazing against Burn when you get to name Eidolon of the Great Revel.

    Treasure Map is pretty good. Transforming it provides similar boost and fixing to Bloom; it's just slow & interacts awkwardly with Solemnity.

    Search for Glory seems great, but I just don't see enough worthwhile targets as of yet. Definitely something I'll be keeping my eye on.

  14. #74

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle View Post
    The value of Ideal in the "impenetrable fortress" is that the final piece that truly locks the game up varies depending on the match up. Since the main lock pieces are 6-8 mana spells, it's more efficient to play Ideal, to save deck slots & even mana (in the case of Overwhelming Splendor).
    Yeah but again I don't think this is the right way to think about it.
    Enduring Ideal just wins even from an empty board, why treat it like a tutor that finds "the missing piece of the puzzle" when it functions perfectly well even if you haven't played any other "puzzle pieces" yet?
    Like if the card was just 5WW super-Approach-of-Second-Sun-sorcery and you win the game immediately when it resolves instead of finding enchantments, would that affect your decision to play Runed Halo vs Ghostly Prison vs Wrath of God or any other piece of interaction? I don't think it should

    Of course there is the minor aspect of "oh I already have solemnity in play and my ideal resolves? Boom get 9lives, now I'm protected" but in my experience even with nothing on the board you can get Unlife with the first Ideal search, then pass the turn and get Solemnity/Dragon with the next one, and it's still a winning play in the vast majority of situations

    As for decks eventually finding a way around obstacles, yes, that can happen, but the idea is that by the time they get over hurdle A, there's a different hurdle B they more have to contend with. Eventually, the hurdle are too high or numerous. Also, specifically thinking about Runed Halo, think about how many decks actually only play a few different wincons. Prowess and Death's Shadow decks, for example, only play like 3-4 different creatures. Halo is also amazing against Burn when you get to name Eidolon of the Great Revel.
    Sure, but ultimately Runed Halo is just a doom blade variant. It's better against e.g. Deaths Shadow or Reality Smasher than actual Doom Blade, but worse vs e.g. Meddling Mage, Elvish Archdruid.
    I think that by choosing to play Enduring Ideal over the 'default' combo control deck (Scapeshift) you are making the claim that cards like Runed Halo and Leyline in your maindeck are particularly backbreaking vs the expected metagame compared to having more 'generic' interaction (e.g. Lightning Helix), but I don't think that means the two strategies have any significant fundamental difference.

    Treasure Map is pretty good. Transforming it provides similar boost and fixing to Bloom; it's just slow & interacts awkwardly with Solemnity.
    Yup, I just watched a guy play it on stream for a bit and it seemed reasonable.
    Both of the downsides you identify are valid.

    Search for Glory seems great, but I just don't see enough worthwhile targets as of yet. Definitely something I'll be keeping my eye on.
    I think the fact that it also searches for lands is a huge boon and maybe you are underrating that aspect slightly

    Just in that list there are
    - Plains
    - A land that makes Ideal uncounterable (Boseiju)
    - A land that ramps mana (Nykthos)
    - A recursion land for grindy situations (Hall of Heliod)
    - Cheap removal (Thin Ice)
    - A more expensive value removal (ECD)
    - A wincon in games that are stalled/stabilized (Heliod)
    - A mana ramp spell (Nyx Lotus)
    - A defensive lockpiece (Valkmira vs Ballista/Valakut/ETW/Grapeshot/prowess guys and lava darts etc)

    In a 60 card version it's probably harder to find enough space for some of those (plus the SFG itself)

  15. #75
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    I was just testing out another build of the deck that I found on Channel Fireball which was piloted by MTGO user, Rinko, from whom I had previously posted a 6th place MTGO Prelim list. The list is a little dated, but it's very straightforward.

    Enduring Ideal by Rinko Sep 2020
    2 Wall of Omens
    4 Lotus Bloom
    4 On Thin Ice
    3 Silence
    2 Greater Auramancy
    3 Suppression Field
    4 Nine Lives
    2 Phyrexian Unlife
    4 Solemnity
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Enduring Ideal
    2 Form of the Dragon
    18 Snow-Covered Plains
    4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

    Sideboard
    2 Archon of Sun's Grace
    2 Gideon's Intervention
    4 Grand Abolisher
    1 Pithing Needle
    3 Rest in Peace
    3 Torpor Orb

    I didn't play very many matches, but my initial impressions were that I found myself having trouble hitting my land drops and I often ended up in topdeck mode, hoping to draw my second lock piece or addition. That said, having the full 4 Solemnity + 6 copies of Nine Lives/Phyrexian Unlife made naturally drawing the combo reasonably reliable. I think this build may make better use of The Birth of Meletis than Wall of Omens, but that could just be my small sample size leading me to the conclusion that drawing sufficient lands is difficult. The inclusion of 3 Torpor Orb in the board suggests to me that Rinko had encountered similar difficulty dealing with Skyclave Apparition and its ilk. One other thing that I like about The Birth of Meletis is that this build doesn't play any other shuffle effects (excluding Ideal). I had to mulligan a few times and it was always worrying to put Enduring Ideal on bottom, knowing that I'd effectively be limiting myself to only the other 3 copies, but keeping a 7 cost spell on a mulligan is dubious.

    I do like Greater Auramancy in the maindeck. I suspect that going forward, more and more decks are going to have maindeck answers to enchantments, as current design seems to be pretty influenced by best-of-one play, which has lead to an increase in the number of modal cards. So, even if there isn't a tier one deck that's playing relevant enchantments, it wouldn't surprise me if the number of decks that can answer an enchantment with their main 60 has increased. I did miss having Overwhelming Splendor and Dovescape at my disposal, but Greater Auramancy picks up some of that slack.

    The other things that I missed most were Mistveil Plains and Hall of Heliod's Generosity. I really like the safety net that those cards can provide, as winning after your Form of the Dragon(s) end up in the yard is difficult with this build.

    So, the cards that I'd like to try the most now are Treasure Map, Mistveil Plains (with a few fetch lands), and Hall of Heliod's Generosity, but those are all at odds with Suppression Field, which I must say, was great. I've long felt that Suppression Field may actually be one of the most powerful cards in Modern that sees very little play; the reason being that it comes with an incredibly high deckbuilding cost. I really don't know if the cost is worth it though, and unfortunately, it's not really something you'd want to plan to sideboard in, as you'd still have to make just about the same sacrifices in deckbuilding.

  16. #76

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    I do like Greater Auramancy in the maindeck. I suspect that going forward, more and more decks are going to have maindeck answers to enchantments, as current design seems to be pretty influenced by best-of-one play, which has lead to an increase in the number of modal cards. So, even if there isn't a tier one deck that's playing relevant enchantments, it wouldn't surprise me if the number of decks that can answer an enchantment with their main 60 has increased. I did miss having Overwhelming Splendor and Dovescape at my disposal, but Greater Auramancy picks up some of that slack.

    The other things that I missed most were Mistveil Plains and Hall of Heliod's Generosity. I really like the safety net that those cards can provide, as winning after your Form of the Dragon(s) end up in the yard is difficult with this build.
    Having Greater Auramancy in the maindeck is more important if you are using the Solemnity combo because without it all your defense can "unravel" with 1 removal spell.
    If you go On Thin Ice into Runed Halo into Skyclave Apparition into Path to Exile etc without relying on Solemnity then if they Disenchant 1 of your pieces then it isn't such a big deal, so having Greater Auramancy to protect your enchantments isn't really any better than just having some other impactful / interactive enchantment

    Then you are right that Splendor/Scape in the deck overlaps a lot with Auramancy in this regard but I think those 2 cards are very important to have in the deck to make sure that your Ideal is powerful enough. I also don't like relying on the 2 card Solemnity combo in this kind of Wr build without any cantrips / card selection etc because I think it's just too inconsistent. So, that's kind of how I end up with the list that I was using.

    Yeah I think Hall of Heliod especially, is just a good card to be playing in the archetype. Idk if you need mistveil as well, now that I think about it a bit more, but it seems fine

    A possibly important new spoiler is the new tutor

    Profane Tutor
    {No manacost, like Ancestral Vision etc}
    Search your library for a card, put it into your hand, then shuffle (i.e. Demonic Tutor)
    Suspend 2 - {1}{B}

    This is nice because if you suspend lotus turn 1 it gives more ways to find ideal
    Or if you have Nine Lives in your hand you can search for solemnity

    e.g. a good core for the deck could be like this

    23 Land including boseiju (valid tutor target)
    - BW Temple
    - BW Pathway (could be meaningfully worse than caves of koilos or whatever because of the amount of WW cost in the deck)
    - Fetid Heath
    etc

    4 Lotus Bloom
    4 Ideal
    4 Profane Tutor
    1 Nyx Lotus (I think this is the best manasource to tutor for on turn 4 in situations where you have the ideal in hand already, but there might be something else, the perfect card would be something like a white Irencrag Feat)
    [Sidenote maybe BR dragonstorm could be a deck with this]

    4 Nine Lives
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Solemnity (maybe 2)
    1 Dovescape
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    etc
    Form of the Dragon is maybe not needed/optimal with the solemnity lock in the deck

    You can maybe play suppression field in a list like this because you are more focused on / able to comboing off quickly
    I don't like Suppression Field in the more "normal" builds of the deck because you don't have any other manadenial to pair it with, and the lack of consistency in finding Ideal means too often you give the opponent enough time to draw mana to pay for it

  17. #77
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Coming in MH2:

    "Terrain Shift" 3G
    Sorcery
    Search for a basic land card from your library, put it into the battlefield, then shuffle.

    Rebound

    This could be relevant to Ideal in that it enables another way to hit 7 mana on turn 4:
    T1 land (1)
    T2 land (2), Rock/Explore/Rampant Growth (3)
    T3 land (4), Terrain Shift (5)
    T4 rebound (6), land (7), Ideal

    Maybe this isn't a good direction for the deck, as it basically turns you into more of a classic ramp strategy, which hasn't been successful in Modern generally, but it's another option to consider.

  18. #78

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle View Post
    Coming in MH2:

    "Terrain Shift" 3G
    Sorcery
    Search for a basic land card from your library, put it into the battlefield, then shuffle.

    Rebound

    This could be relevant to Ideal in that it enables another way to hit 7 mana on turn 4:
    T1 land (1)
    T2 land (2), Rock/Explore/Rampant Growth (3)
    T3 land (4), Terrain Shift (5)
    T4 rebound (6), land (7), Ideal

    Maybe this isn't a good direction for the deck, as it basically turns you into more of a classic ramp strategy, which hasn't been successful in Modern generally, but it's another option to consider.
    there are already a bunch of explosive vegetation variants legal
    ramp has been good in modern, titanshift etc
    The question if you do this (ramping lands), is why is Enduring Ideal the payoff card instead of titan/valakut
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 05-26-2021 at 02:54 AM.

  19. #79
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    there are already a bunch of explosive vegetation variants legal
    ramp has been good in modern, titanshift etc
    The question if you do this (ramping lands), is why is Enduring Ideal the payoff card instead of titan/valakut
    Completely accurate. I hadn't considered Explosive Vegetation, so I guess there's no reason to get excited by Terrain Shift.

    MH2 is looking good though: Seal of Cleansing, Soul Snare, & Out of Time all seem like solid pick-ups.

  20. #80

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle View Post
    Completely accurate. I hadn't considered Explosive Vegetation, so I guess there's no reason to get excited by Terrain Shift.

    MH2 is looking good though: Seal of Cleansing, Soul Snare, & Out of Time all seem like solid pick-ups.
    Yeah I do like Out of Time as a sideboard option or maybe a 1-of maindeck just as a reset button to find off ideal, maybe there are some situations where Phyrexian Unlife is not good enough as defense for example but it definitely doesn't seem absolutely necessary. I generally don't like cards that just delay the opp for a bit, because this deck cannot close the game very reliably (see why I don't like Suppression Field either). Id rather play cards like Skyclave Apparition that cleanly answer the opponent's card

    Seal of Cleansing is a decent pickup but Aura of Silence already did exist and for a monoW deck that can pay WW easily the tax is pretty useful

    Soul Snare could be solid as well but there is a lot of competition for this slot from On Thin Ice and Path to Exile and the upcoming Portable Hole etc


    Edit:
    Solitude 3WW
    Creature - Elemental Incarnation 3/2
    Flash, Lifelink
    When Solitude enters the battlefield, exile up to 1 other target creature. That creature's controller gains life equal to its power
    Evoke - Exile a white card from your hand

    This seems very good in a list similar to the previous one I posted as a 4x in the Path to Exile / Portable Hole slot

    - You can make devotion from the 3WW cost with the evoke trigger on the stack
    - You're a midrange devotion white deck you can easily make 5 mana to hardcast it and remove something then get a decent creature with +2 devotion
    - Yorion is a free white card to put in your hand to help pitch to / offset the cost
    - You can evoke it and then blink it with Astral Drift with the sac trigger on the stack
    - If you hardcast it you can blink it with Yorion too
    - It's a good target to revive with ECD

    like this

    4 Wall of Omens
    4 Skyclave Apparition
    1 Reidane God of the Worthy
    1 Heliod God of the Sun
    4 Solitude

    4 Enduring Ideal
    4 Search for Glory

    4 On Thin Ice
    4 Rune of Sustenance
    4 Runed Halo
    4 Astral Drift
    4 Leyline of Sanctity

    1 Phyrexian Unlife
    1 Sphere of Safety
    1 Elspeth Conqers Death
    1 Dovescape
    1 Form of the Dragon
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    1 Nyx Lotus

    4 Nykthos
    4 Field of Ruin
    19 Snow Plains
    1 Mistveil Plains
    1 Hall of Heliod
    1 Arch of Orazca
    1 Boseiju

    Companion: Yorion
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 05-28-2021 at 04:34 AM.

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