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Thread: UW Enduring Ideal

  1. #41

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    The Enchantment Volrath's Stronghold ('Heliod's Hall of Generosity') looks like a really good option for this deck
    Not only does it perform a similar role as Mistveil Plains for reloading your combo pieces, but against control decks you can use it to put threatening cards like Dawn of Hope back on top of your library if they counter or remove them.

    'On thin Ice' is also interesting as an easier-to-cast Chained to the Rocks, it could be a good option for main or side

    Edit: I'm thinking of playing Suppression Field again because it has a relevant effect against the Hogaak deck (Tax Altar of Dementia / Carrion Feeder) as well as being an ok card against planeswalkers and such.
    Because of the way that this interacts with Dawn of Hope I would probably go back to the red splash for Assemble the Legion / SB Alpine Moon. The RW Horizon Canopy [Sunbaked Canyon?] could also be a good include (even though it's a nonbo with Suppression Field it doesn't have much opportunity cost to include it in the deck, and in the lategame if you're mana flooded with Nykthos you can still easily pay for it)
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 06-17-2019 at 07:40 AM.

  2. #42

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Did a little G1 testing with the following list:

    1 Mistveil Plains
    1 Hall of Heliods Generosity
    1 Arch of Orazca
    4 Wx Temple
    4 Nykthos
    11 Plains

    4 Enduring Ideal
    4 Lotus Bloom
    1 Form of the Dragon
    1 Phyrexian Unlife
    1 Dovescape
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    1 Sphere of Safety
    1 Dawn of Hope
    4 Wall of Omens
    4 Runed Halo
    4 Nevermore
    4 Stasis Snare
    4 Cast Out
    4 Leyline of Sanctity

    Notes:
    1) Maindeck cast out x4 seems important for consistency reasons. Some of the lands should maybe be Horizon Canopy or the WR/WB ones depending on which splash color is chosen (or the UW cycling land for blue)
    2) The Heliod land is a nice little boost for the deck
    3) 4 Maindeck Nevermore actually seemed pretty solid, 2x Devotion is good plus it stops many things in the format if you know what to name (Humans is still playing maindeck Meddling Mage). It also avoids the need to play some of the more narrow Ideal bullets (for example rather than get Greater Auramancy to protect Phyrexian Unlife you can just get Nevermore and name Decay, or against Tron you can name Ulamog which is pretty significant
    4) Leyline of Sanctity can maybe go to the sideboard, I often thought that this card was a maindeck staple due to the double devotion for 0 mana but depending on the metagame maybe it should be moved to the SB in exchange for some Ghostly Prison or something. Possibly Gideon's Intervention is also a good option
    5) I thought about playing On Thin Ice but only adding 1 Devotion and only being useful against creature decks made me not want to play it main, it definitely could be a worthwhile sideboard card though. If the metagame is almost all Hogaak/Phoenix/E Tron etc then maybe it's fine maindeck
    6) The deck definitely also wants some anti-control options in the SB because Lotus Bloom is awful against Time Raveler. I expect the correct move involves 1-2 Boseiju and then some cheap permanents that can threaten PWs like History of Benalia or Luminarch Ascension etc. Silence/Veil of Summer could also be an okay option but I think I would rather have more winconditions rather than rely on Ideal 100%. [Edit: Grand Abolisher could be really good, adding WW devotion, stopping all counterspells, and coming down early to pressure opposing Narset/Teferi. It seems likely that the opponent would board most of their removal out and unlike e.g. Silence it doesn't get stopped by Force of Negation / Dovins Veto]

    I could take this list to the modern MCQ this weekend because these are the only modern cards I own at the moment, but I'm pretty unfamiliar with modern in general ATM and most likely the deck isn't competitive at all. Enduring Ideal is still a fun card though
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 07-30-2019 at 12:57 AM.

  3. #43
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    After taking a bit of a break from this deck, I felt compelled to come back and give it a try in the post-Hogaak/Modern Horizons world. Modern Horizons brought two pretty significant additions that I think really go a long way toward helping the deck compete, namely the "snow package" of Arcum's Astrolabe and On Thin Ice. Here's my updated list:

    Enduring Ideal
    CREATURES
    1 Heliod, God of the Sun
    SPELLS
    4 Lotus Bloom
    4 Arcum's Astrolabe
    3 On Thin Ice
    1 Porphyry Nodes
    1 Greater Auramancy
    1 Peace of Mind
    3 Runed Halo
    2 Spreading Seas
    1 Copy Enchantment
    1 Detention Sphere
    3 Ghostly Prison
    1 Phyrexian Unlife
    1 Story Circle
    3 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Dovescape
    4 Enduring Ideal
    1 Form of the Dragon
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    LANDS
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    1 Hallowed Fountain
    1 Mistveil Plains
    4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    7 Snow-Covered Plains
    4 Temple of Enlightenment

    On Thin Ice provides early/inexpensive removal that still adds toward the devotion count while Arcum's Astrolabe serves as a cantrip that also offers mana fixing, allowing for a more resilient mana base while maintaining the 23 land count I had been running previously. To fit these cards, I cut the less efficient removal, including all but one copy of Porphyry Nodes from the main deck. While I do still think Nodes is a powerful card, there are a number of matchups where it either doesn't do much or is too slow to reliably deal with the threats you need to target; specifically the resurgence of GW Eldrazi made Nodes rather poor, as you'd have to eat through Noble Hierarchs before you could get to the bigger threats. On Thin Ice happens to be really effective against Reality Smasher, avoiding the need to target it with a spell, and Ghostly Prison often negates the Smasher's haste. I kept a single copy of Nodes in the main deck for the situational utility and the combo potential with Heliod.

    Hall of Heliod's Generosity is another new addition from MH1. I wouldn't say the card has been an all star, but it serves its purpose. Like Mistveil Plains, it can be used to put key enchantments back into the deck so you can search them up with Enduring Ideal or you can rebuy something (like a previously sacrificed Porphyry Nodes) for immediate redeployment.

    I believe the only other "new" addition to the main deck since my last posted list is an old card in the form of Story Circle. It's a great card against Burn or mono-colored decks and can be used generally to build your "pillow fort" until you're able to establish a hard lock.

    Sideboard Options[cards]
    Aura of Silence - Artifact/enchantment hate that provides a powerful static taxing ability, adds to devotion, and can be bought back with Heliod's Hall
    Boseiju, Who Shelters All - for forcing Ideal through counterspells.
    Grafdigger's Cage - Graveyard hate, shuts off Neoform, Collected Company, etc.
    Rule of Law (will be Deafening Silence with the release of Throne of Eldrane) - Hate for Storm, Izzet Phoenix, or other cantrip heavy strategies.
    Nevermore - A catch all for cards that I can't otherwise beat (e.g. Karn, the Great Creator + Mycosynth Lattice).
    Oblivion Ring - catch all removal
    Porphyry Nodes - An extra copy for the matchups where it's good.
    Solemnity - Hate for Infect and Hardened Scales, also opens up a combo with Phyrexian Unlife; nice in that both pieces are low cost enough to play out naturally, but Solemnity being a complete blank against most of the field means it's not worth a main deck slot.
    Spreading Seas - Hate for Tron and decks with greedy mana bases.
    Supreme Verdict - An uncounterable sweeper for when you need to get things dead; effective against some Stoneblade builds.
    Teferi, Time Raveler -Shuts off opposing counterspells to allow you to resolve Ideal and can also generate value and dig early (bouncing Astrolabe or an On Thin Ice that exiled a token).
    Terra Eternal - Protection against land destruction. This used to be Sacred Ground, but with On Thin Ice, you don't want the land to be destroyed at all, so I'm trying this out.
    Torpor Orb - Hates on Humans, Bant Soulherder, and creature toolbox decks.
    Wheel of Sun and Moon - Graveyard hate that can even be used as protection on yourself and adds two pips of devotion to boot.

    Notable omissions:
    Rest in Peace - As graveyard based decks are a bit less prevalent at the moment, I've moved to Grafdigger's Cage and the one-sided Wheel of Sun and Moon to avoid potential dis-synergy. If graveyard decks become more prominent, RIP could again find itself in the board in multiples. Note with Cage that it will prevent you from putting Heliod into play with Ideal.
    Stony Silence - I had previously hoped that a suitable replacement for Lotus Bloom would allow me to avoid playing any artifacts in the main deck, so I could leverage this powerful hate card, but the inclusion of Arcum's Astrolabe only furthers the anti-synergy of this card. That, combined with the fact that there has been a general down-tick in artifact decks, makes me feel more comfortable leaving this out of the list for now. It would be nice to have against the Whirza deck, but graveyard hate can work against their combo and Torpor Orb can shut off Sword of the Meek recursion as well.
    Last edited by CaptainTwiddle; 01-26-2020 at 09:39 PM. Reason: correcting typo on number of Enduring Ideals

  4. #44

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Terra Eternal can also be Privileged Position
    I agree that Teferi is good if you have the Blue splash

    From Throne of Eldraine I'm going to add 1 of the new land:
    CIPT unless you control a plains
    T: add W
    2WW, T: Make a 1/1

    There is also an Assemble the Legion variant that costs 2WWR that is kind of interesting.

    I thought about playing Stoneforge in the deck lol
    It's just a good card, makes W devotion, you can even play Godsend if you want for another WW

  5. #45

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    I will be taking this deck to a free local tournament in a couple of weeks
    Haven't played modern for a very long time.
    There are still some decent prizes (weird arrangement) so I'm aiming to do a reasonable job with the cards I do have

    Main:

    4 Enduring Ideal
    4 Lotus Bloom

    4 Wall of Omens

    4 Runed Halo
    4 Nevermore
    4 Stasis Snare
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Cast Out
    1 Phyrexian Unlife
    1 Form of the Dragon / Solemnity (still unsure, leaning towards Dragon atm)
    1 Sphere of Safety
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    1 Dawn of Hope
    1 Dovescape

    1 Castle Ardenvale
    1 Arch of Orazca
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    1 Mistveil Plains
    4 Wx Temple
    4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
    10 Snow-Covered Plains

    Still thinking about the SB and whether I want to splash or not. Tron still seems like the biggest problem (the big Green build being far harder but the small Karn/Ugin from the Eldrazi version still somewhat annoying).
    Wondering if there is an anti-tron white hatebear but it seems like there isn't (Arbiter kind of, but it needs to be backed up with Ghost Quarters)
    Splashing Teeg would be near-perfect but obviously it can't be done because it makes Enduring Ideal uncastable
    Lavinia is almost great but it doesn't really do anything against Oblivion Stone. (I guess this is also a problem with Teeg)
    Maybe the aim can be to assemble some soft lock like Lavinia + Nevermore
    Damping Sphere is ok, disables Nykthos, but it's probably the best option for monoW
    Immortal Sun has a good effect but probably too expensive

    Also unsure about the best plan for the Urza decks
    RIP/Stony/Abolisher all seem ok in small numbers
    Some alt-wincons could be ok as well (but probably requires a splash like Assemble the Legion etc, Suns Champion seems maybe a bit slow. Sigil of the Empty Throne could be ok maybe)

  6. #46

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    (Sorry for the multi-post)
    Played the list in the previous post (with 1 Dragon 0 Solemnity) at FNM and another tournament this weekend
    SB:
    4 Grand Abolisher
    4 Rest in Peace
    4 On Thin Ice
    3 Stony Silence

    Results
    FNM:
    2-0 Hardened Scales
    2-0 Burn
    2-0 Grixis Deaths Shadow
    Sunday:
    (I switched to a build with -2 Cast Out -1 Nevermore -1 Stasis Snare +4 Suppression Field -1 Dawn of Hope +1 Assemble the Legion -1 Ardenvale +1 Rugged Prairie)
    0-2 Hardened Scales
    0-2 Naya Zoo
    At this point I was out of contention for extra prizes and the event had no decklists so I swapped back all the above changes
    2-0 Izzet Phoenix
    2-0 Bant Spirits
    0-2 Bant Midrange/Control
    1-1-1 Jund (Timed out after Enduring Ideal resolved and my opponent was totally locked but I needed like 3 more turns to kill them with form of the dragon)

    I think Form of the Dragon is better than Solemnity, in a lot of spots the Moat effect is really important
    The maindeck feels really solid. Suppression Field didn't seem like the right place to be. Because you give your opponent so much time its easy for them to get mana to play around it, and it's hard to e.g. totally lock their fetches under it because it doesn't come down until turn 2. Then it's very annoying with your own cast outs (cycling tax) and also makes things like Dawn of Hope, Castle Ardenvale, Hall of Heliod, Arch of Orazca all much worse. And compared to other options like more Stasis Snare / Nevermore it only adds 1 devotion instead of 2. The 'flex slots' in the maindeck I think are the Stasis Snare and the Nevermore but there aren't many cards I would be tempted to replace them with. Gideons Intervention is a possibility but I'm not sure how many copies would be correct. Apart from that the only option I am interested in trying is swapping some of the On Thin Ice to the maindeck or adding 1 copy of Privileged Position

    Grand Abolisher is an ok card, the idea being that against fair decks with counterspells they will board all their removal out, the problem is it seems that most fair decks these days will still have Oko to nullify it. On Thin Ice is also really good, but Stony Silence and RIP were underwhelming.

    One card I didn't consider for the SB was Generous Gift (White version of Beast Within) to act as Stone Rain against Tron. Also, a good choice for the kind of "midrange threat" option (in the vein of Assemble the Legion, Sun's Champion etc) could be Cavalier of Dawn. Approach of the Second Sun is interesting (and works with Boseiju) but is probably way too slow

  7. #47

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Another couple of FNMs

    2-1 vs Jund Shadow
    2-0 vs UB Faeries
    2-0 vs Burn

    2-0 vs Monored Prowess
    2-0 vs Dredge
    1-2 vs Infect

    SB is now
    4 Generous Gift
    4 On Thin Ice
    4 Grand Abolisher
    1 Boseiju
    1 Rest in Peace
    1 Stony Silence

    Maindeck is still the same, seems good
    Maybe could have won the Infect match if I named a different pump spell in G1 and Iced Hierarch in G3
    Not many people locally seem to play Tron or Urza so I keep punishing all these linear decks

  8. #48
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    UPDATED LIST with Theros Beyond Death

    Turns out the new enchantment-based set gave this deck a few new toys (go figure).

    Enduring Ideal
    CREATURES
    1 Heliod, God of the Sun
    SPELLS
    4 Lotus Bloom
    4 Arcum's Astrolabe
    3 On Thin Ice
    2 The Birth of Meletis
    1 Greater Auramancy
    1 Omen of the Sea
    1 Peace of Mind
    3 Runed Halo
    1 Copy Enchantment
    1 Detention Sphere
    3 Ghostly Prison
    1 Phyrexian Unlife
    1 Story Circle
    3 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Dovescape
    4 Enduring Ideal
    1 Form of the Dragon
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    LANDS
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    1 Hallowed Fountain
    1 Mistveil Plains
    4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    7 Snow-Covered Plains
    4 Temple of Enlightenment

    New sideboard addition/option: Thryx, the Sudden Storm

    I had been running a few copies of Wall of Omens and a single Spreading Seas prior to the release of THB. After some initial testing, I've replaced them with The Birth of Meletis and Omen of the Sea, respectively. My main criticism of this deck previously was that it needed better card filtering/selection. Since you want to tutor your powerful, game-winning enchantments directly onto the battlefield, you actively want to avoid drawing them. As such, general card draw effects are less desirable in this deck than they would be elsewhere. Nonetheless, there are cards you want to draw on the way to executing your endgame. Omen lets you scry before drawing, so you can tuck things like Form of the Dragon safely on the bottom of your deck while you dig for what you need at the moment. As for Birth of Meletis, I was kind of skeptical, as I figured getting the immediate blocker from Wall of Omens was going to be better, but after a few games, I'm sold on Birth. This deck wants to hit its land drop every turn until an Ideal is resolved. Birth helps to ensure that and, since you actively want to draw lands while avoiding certain cards, Birth wins out. The delay on the arrival of the 0/4 wall is a bummer, but the life gain helps to offset that.

    Thryx, the Sudden Storm is something I'm trying in the sideboard as an anti-control measure. My thought is that most control decks are likely to board out the majority of their creature removal. As such, having a threat that can be flashed in at the end of their turn which then prevents Ideal from being countered seems like a solid plan. Thryx also presents a pretty reasonable clock in his own right.

    Modern seems to be in a bit of flux at the moment; in the wake of the recent bannings (Opal, Oko, & Lattice). I'm not sure if that helps Ideal as a strategy, but I don't think it hurts it. I do think that the Lattice ban likely reducing the number of Karn, the Great Creator floating around is positive for us, as our Lotus Blooms won't get randomly hosed, though I do still think Tron is a pretty bad matchup.

  9. #49

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle View Post
    UPDATED LIST with Theros Beyond Death

    Turns out the new enchantment-based set gave this deck a few new toys (go figure).

    Enduring Ideal
    CREATURES
    1 Heliod, God of the Sun
    SPELLS
    4 Lotus Bloom
    4 Arcum's Astrolabe
    3 On Thin Ice
    2 The Birth of Meletis
    1 Greater Auramancy
    1 Omen of the Sea
    1 Peace of Mind
    3 Runed Halo
    1 Copy Enchantment
    1 Detention Sphere
    3 Ghostly Prison
    1 Phyrexian Unlife
    1 Story Circle
    3 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Dovescape
    4 Enduring Ideal
    1 Form of the Dragon
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    LANDS
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    1 Hallowed Fountain
    1 Mistveil Plains
    4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    7 Snow-Covered Plains
    4 Temple of Enlightenment

    New sideboard addition/option: Thryx, the Sudden Storm

    I had been running a few copies of Wall of Omens and a single Spreading Seas prior to the release of THB. After some initial testing, I've replaced them with The Birth of Meletis and Omen of the Sea, respectively. My main criticism of this deck previously was that it needed better card filtering/selection. Since you want to tutor your powerful, game-winning enchantments directly onto the battlefield, you actively want to avoid drawing them. As such, general card draw effects are less desirable in this deck than they would be elsewhere. Nonetheless, there are cards you want to draw on the way to executing your endgame. Omen lets you scry before drawing, so you can tuck things like Form of the Dragon safely on the bottom of your deck while you dig for what you need at the moment. As for Birth of Meletis, I was kind of skeptical, as I figured getting the immediate blocker from Wall of Omens was going to be better, but after a few games, I'm sold on Birth. This deck wants to hit its land drop every turn until an Ideal is resolved. Birth helps to ensure that and, since you actively want to draw lands while avoiding certain cards, Birth wins out. The delay on the arrival of the 0/4 wall is a bummer, but the life gain helps to offset that.

    Thryx, the Sudden Storm is something I'm trying in the sideboard as an anti-control measure. My thought is that most control decks are likely to board out the majority of their creature removal. As such, having a threat that can be flashed in at the end of their turn which then prevents Ideal from being countered seems like a solid plan. Thryx also presents a pretty reasonable clock in his own right.

    Modern seems to be in a bit of flux at the moment; in the wake of the recent bannings (Opal, Oko, & Lattice). I'm not sure if that helps Ideal as a strategy, but I don't think it hurts it. I do think that the Lattice ban likely reducing the number of Karn, the Great Creator floating around is positive for us, as our Lotus Blooms won't get randomly hosed, though I do still think Tron is a pretty bad matchup.
    Actually I don't think there was any card from the new set that I wanted to play.

    I like the idea of the Thryx effect but UU seems relatively difficult to cast: I think Grand Abolisher or Teferi are better choices. I think even against the most anemic of control decks a 5 mana 4/5 is not going to be a relevant threat and the Grand Abolisher is not only easier to cast but also makes 2 devotion for Nykthos

    I like Wall of Omens much better than Birth of Meletis because it doesn't self-sac, so it acts as a permanent devotion source. If BoM stayed around on the battlefield after the third chapter then I would be much more interested. Overall I'm not convinced that "you actively want to draw lands while avoiding certain cards" is a relevant argument: you also want to draw Enduring Ideal, and it's so rare to lose the game after Ideal resolves even if there is 1 piece stuck in hand somehow that I don't think it's a scenario that should be weighted heavily in terms of card choices. Following your own logic if you really wanted to mulligan to Ideal and try not to draw random cards, then you should cut Arcum's Astrolabe for New Benalia (your mana is near-perfect without Astrolabe it so it's basically just Glassdust Hulk, which you might as well play instead if you really want a 1-mana cantrip because it's better against e.g. Narset and Chalice of the Void)

    Omen is ok but if I was playing a blue splash with fetches (and more cards that put themselves in the graveyard like Meletis) then I might consider Search for Azcanta instead

    I think both Oko and Karn are annoying cards to play against (Oko game 1 is generally not scary but as a free way to disable Abolisher I found it to be annoying) so both of those being gone is a good thing.
    Lack of Oko may make burn more popular which is also a good thing for this deck
    And then Primeval Titan decks can be handled pretty well with Nevermore/Leyline depending on the version (maybe not, depending on how fast they are) and Shadow Variants are in general quite a good matchup I think.
    Tron matchup still sucks but it doesn't seem too popular atm

  10. #50
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I like the idea of the Thryx effect but UU seems relatively difficult to cast: I think Grand Abolisher or Teferi are better choices. I think even against the most anemic of control decks a 5 mana 4/5 is not going to be a relevant threat and the Grand Abolisher is not only easier to cast but also makes 2 devotion for Nykthos.
    That's fair. I guess without Porphyry Nodes in the main any longer, Abolisher might be more practical. I like T3feri, but felt that protecting him might be difficult, though maybe not against control without much pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I like Wall of Omens much better than Birth of Meletis... Overall I'm not convinced that "you actively want to draw lands while avoiding certain cards" is a relevant argument: ... Following your own logic ... you should cut Arcum's Astrolabe.
    Astrolabe has been good. The color fixing is nice & the card draw is welcome; some is better than none, but I still maintain that selection is preferable.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Omen is ok but if I was playing a blue splash with fetches (and more cards that put themselves in the graveyard like Meletis) then I might consider Search for Azcanta instead.
    I should try Search for Azcanta. My initial thought was that it was too slow to be a setup card. The surveil each turn would be nice. Transforming it would be excellent, but the deck doesn't put that many cards into the yard. Nonetheless, the search function would be awesome & getting an additional land into play could be hugely relevant.

  11. #51
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Another card that I'm contemplating for this deck is Kiora Bests the Sea God. I don't know that this card specifically offers anything that isn't obtained elsewhere, but it is another game winner at the same CMC as Ideal. Also, just a general note about sagas: if you resolve Ideal and use the Epic trigger to get a saga, it enters the battlefield, giving you chapter 1, then you move to draw and as enter you main phase you'll get chapter 2 in that same turn. I think that's worth keeping in mind if we continue to get sagas in the future.

  12. #52

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle View Post
    Another card that I'm contemplating for this deck is Kiora Bests the Sea God. I don't know that this card specifically offers anything that isn't obtained elsewhere, but it is another game winner at the same CMC as Ideal. Also, just a general note about sagas: if you resolve Ideal and use the Epic trigger to get a saga, it enters the battlefield, giving you chapter 1, then you move to draw and as enter you main phase you'll get chapter 2 in that same turn. I think that's worth keeping in mind if we continue to get sagas in the future.
    I don't think the deck needs any more effects like this (haymakers), and if I did want to play them they would probably have a similar manacost to something like Sigil of the Empty Throne so that they can curve into ideal by adding to the devotion count.

    What I'm most interested in at the moment are anti-Primeval SB options
    - Nevermore is ok but it can be slow
    - The white Torpor Orb creatures (Tocatli Honor Guard or Hushbringer etc) are alright but maybe the impact is not high enough (but in combination with removal spells maybe they are ok? and they also disable reclamation sage). Turning off your own Wall of Omens could be annoying though and they also have a weird interaction with Uro. (It disables both etb triggers so they don't get the 1UG explore but it doesn't self-sac either).
    - Aven Mindcensor?

    It could also be worth moving in on the blue splash and then playing something like Aether Gust

    Edit: The deck might actually be a pretty poor choice atm (prior meme status notwithstanding) because a lot of people are playing SB ashioks to deal with Titans and it totally fucks you over
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 02-07-2020 at 08:37 AM.

  13. #53

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Had a pretty bad run with this yesterday where I went 0-3 not winning a game
    I think my draws were pretty bad but also when you're playing a fun deck against real decks (Amulet, 4C shadow, Uroza) it's somewhat expected

    New idea: Astral Drift maindeck, possibly replacing Stasis Snare or something else

    Reasoning:
    - The main idea is not to cast it, you are usually supposed to cycle it
    - 2W Fog a creature draw a card is reasonable
    - You can target your own Wall of Omens for value (White Divination, omg), especially mid-combat after blocking with it
    - Uncounterable un-veilable way of disrupting TBR/Infect stuff
    - A lot of the same Stasis Snare tricks are possible (like you exile their Dryad of the Grove in response to the Valakut triggers)
    - You can't permanently exile things but you can endstep cycle it to exile a Meddling Mage or something for your own turn
    - Delete a token
    - If Uro is about to attack you then you can blink the Uro, and when it comes back (they get the ETB trigger but they would have got a trigger anyway if you let it attack) it enters without escaping and dies
    - It's not a spell to cycle it, which gives you some play with Enduring Ideal (e.g. you get Sphere of Safety with Ideal, then they pay to attack with their 1 big creature, and even though you can't cast spells you can still cycle Drift to flicker their attacker)

    The fact it's an Enchantment doesn't matter that much:
    - You can cast it for 1 Devotion if you're desperate
    - If you have 6 mana you can use Hall of Heliods Generosity to put it on top every turn and keep 1 creature locked down forever while not skipping your draw step (even after Enduring Ideal has resolved)
    - Nice interaction with Cavalier of Dawn, which I think is a good SB card (you can flicker the Golem to kill it or flicker the Cavalier to destroy something else, and Drift puts itself in the graveyard so you have a target to return for when the Cavalier dies)

    Basically, in terms of removal it's worse than Stasis Snare, but it might be good enough, and in other situations the cantrip (or actual card advantage, with Wall of Omens) is really important for a monoW 'combo' deck that has obvious consistency problems

    You can also do a loop with a card like Auramancer just paying mana every turn to draw a card but I don't know if this is good enough

    Edit: Maybe this would be possible shifting the entire deck into some kind of really fair plan B
    Like you can play Auramancer, Elspeth Conquers Death, Cavalier of Dawn, maybe a couple of PW, and then have fewer prison elements maindeck and just be like a midrange white deck with the backup plan of Bloom + Ideal.
    In the broader modern context this probably doesn't quite make sense although I think there could be some merit to e.g. moving Leyline to the sideboard

    This for example seems reasonable, but maybe 4x Cavalier is too greedy as a 5-drop
    4 Temple
    4 Nykthos
    1 Mistveil Plains
    1 Hall of Heliod
    1 Ardenvale
    1 Orazca
    10 Plains
    [22]
    4 Bloom
    4 Ideal
    4 Wall of Omens
    4 Cast Out
    4 Astral Drift
    [42]
    1 Dovescape
    1 Splendor
    1 Sphere
    1 Dragon / Solemnity
    1 Alternate Wincon e.g. Dawn of Hope
    1 Unlife
    [48]
    4 Runed Halo
    4 Nevermore
    4 Cavalier of Dawn
    [60]

    SB:
    4 Grand Abolisher
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 On Thin Ice
    1 Boseiju
    2 [Free Slot]
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 02-27-2020 at 02:59 AM.

  14. #54
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    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    I don't have much to add to the furthering of the Ideal deck at the moment, but I do think that we may be reaching a space where some divergent strategies become realistic. Specifically, the Heliod, Sun-Crowned + Walking Ballista combo is compact enough that I've started wondering about hybridizing Ideal w/ white devotion. I've also been playing an Esper Stax deck in Pioneer that I'm interested in porting to Modern. I don't think that build would include Ideal, as it tends to lean more on planeswalkers, but Starfield of Nyx has proven to be a really powerful card when combined with sagas, legendary enchantments, and Doom Foretold. Porting to modern would definitely require some tweaks to make sure the locks can be applied quick enough, but I do think that Arcum's Astrolabe opens up some space by providing ready access to all colors.

  15. #55

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle View Post
    I don't have much to add to the furthering of the Ideal deck at the moment, but I do think that we may be reaching a space where some divergent strategies become realistic. Specifically, the Heliod, Sun-Crowned + Walking Ballista combo is compact enough that I've started wondering about hybridizing Ideal w/ white devotion. I've also been playing an Esper Stax deck in Pioneer that I'm interested in porting to Modern. I don't think that build would include Ideal, as it tends to lean more on planeswalkers, but Starfield of Nyx has proven to be a really powerful card when combined with sagas, legendary enchantments, and Doom Foretold. Porting to modern would definitely require some tweaks to make sure the locks can be applied quick enough, but I do think that Arcum's Astrolabe opens up some space by providing ready access to all colors.
    I thought about the same idea (Heliod / Ballista combo). I like (or am at least open to) the idea of having the minimum possible Ideal package and then using some other fair creature plan as a devotion enabler.

    One thing that I think could work really well with this plan is Ranger-Captain of Eos, which searches for Ballista, and the silence effect can protect the combo (whether that is casting Ideal or the Ballista Infinite). (Actually if there was a useful 1-drop to search for in the enchantment version of the deck then maybe Ranger is already better than Grand Abolisher? Not sure. Off the top of my head all I can think of is Weathered Wayfarer, which is ok but not great).

    The thing that makes me less enthusiastic about this creature version is that random 5/5 Heliod beatdowns is a much less scary plan-B in modern, and a lot of those ancillary enchantments like Cast Out and Nevermore and so on are also relevant parts of the enduring ideal toolbox in addition to being those on-curve disruption+devotion elements, so replacing them with creatures has a cost.

    Doom Foretold is too much of a nonbo with Nykthos for me to consider it in an Enduring Ideal deck, maybe you can make another list around it (with starfield), but a big part of the reason to play this deck is the game-ending hammer-drop of Ideal into Dovescape (or Splendor) and I think losing this angle is a big downside). Doom Foretold + Starfield could be a thing in pioneer maybe.

  16. #56

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    After seriously considering playing Astral Drift I realised that it's better to just play the blue manabase to support Teferi

    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Nykthos
    9 Snow Plains
    1 Snow Island
    1 Hallowed Fountain
    1 UW Temple
    1 Mistveil Plains

    3 Teferi, Time Raveler

    4 Wall of Omens

    4 Enduring Ideal

    4 Arcum's Astrolabe
    4 Lotus Bloom

    1 Phyrexian Unlife
    1 Form of the Dragon
    1 Dovescape
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    1 Sphere of Safety
    4 Cast Out
    4 Runed Halo
    3 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Nevermore

    1 Free Slot (Dawn of Hope, probably)

    SB:
    On Thin Ice
    Cavalier of Dawn (You can pop your own astro with this which is fun)
    Spreading Seas maybe
    Elspeth Conquers Death?
    1x Leyline and Nevermore
    Lavinia Azorius Renegade maybe

    Compared to the manabase suggested by cpt twiddle I don't think so many lands are needed with 4 Astro but the deck needs more than 12 snow sources for Astrolabe and it seems to work out that Hall/Arch should be cut as well, but you can probably fine-tune this a bit



    EDIT: Well now astrolabe is banned, going back to the monoW build

    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Nevermore
    4 Runed Halo
    4 Cast Out

    4 Enduring Ideal
    4 Lotus Bloom
    4 Wall of Omens

    1 Dovescape
    1 Unlife
    1 Dragon
    1 Sphere of Safety
    1 Splendor
    1 Dawn of Hope

    3 Open slot

    4 Nykthos
    12 Snow Plains
    4 White scryland
    1 Arch of Orazca
    1 Mistveil Plains
    1 Heliods Hall

    Sideboard
    4 On thin Ice
    4 Grand Abolisher (or possibly Captain of Eos if the deck can figure out a 1drop that makes sense)
    1 Boseiju
    +X

    Notes:
    The main issue is the deck still ~probably~ wants to be more threat dense in those open slots but finding cards that adequately do this role in monoW is difficult
    - Bomby creatures possibly too vulnerable to removal and/or not scary enough (e.g. Cavalier of Dawn, Sun Titan maybe?)
    - Planeswalkers possibly same (4WW Elspeth, 2WW Serra/Elspeth/Gideon, etc. I considered Calix but maybe it's not good enough)
    - Stoneforge is possible? But not sure if something like 2 SFM + 1 Skull is worth
    - Other enchantments don't really exist (Sigil of the Empty Throne is a bad topdeck, Assemble the Legion slow and also vulnerable to e.g. teferi bouncing it (the splash is pretty free for a 3WX card but if you want to try to play something like Blood Moon alongside then it becomes a little more challenging), History of Benalia too low-impact, possibly don't want to play multiple copies of things that sink mana like Dawn of Hope, not sure if other options are out there)

    - Astral Drift still seems like an ok idea. Maybe so many cast outs are not needed (you only need maybe 2 to be part of the EI toolbox, and they are almost always cycled when drawn) so these can be swapped to Astral Drifts, which do more when cycled and have more synergy with other cards in the deck like Wall and Hall of Heliod.

    - Castle Ardenvale was cut for a plains to increase snow count for SB on thin ice and better chance of having WW on turn 2 for Halo (i.e. if you lead on temple on turn 1). Because of how the deck defends itself from creatures with e.g. Runed Halo and not hard removal like Supreme Verdict it's almost impossible to use Castle as a wincon and therefore it only functions like a bad Maze of Ith that can chumpblock 1 thing per turn, which is fine in some situations but overall not that great.

    - 1 of the open slot can possibly be another plains

    EDIT:

    After some testing

    12 Snow Plains
    4 Temple of Triumph
    4 Nykthos
    1 Arch of Orazca
    1 Mistveil Plains
    1 Hall of Heliod

    4 Enduring Ideal
    4 Lotus Bloom

    4 Wall of Omens

    4 Astral Drift
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Runed Halo
    4 Cast Out
    2 On Thin Ice
    1 Nevermore

    1 Dovescape
    1 Form of the Dragon
    1 Sphere of Safety
    1 Phyrexian Unlife
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    1 Dawn of Hope / Luminarch Ascension / Sacred Mesa

    SB:
    2 On Thin Ice
    3 Nevermore
    4 Mana Tithe
    4 Grand Abolisher
    1 Boseiju
    1 Unsure, possibly Generic Big Bomb Thing (Various upsides for a creature like Sun Titan because it dodges Force of Negation / Stub or a sorcery like Finale of Glory because it works with Boseiju or an enchantment like Sigil of the Empty Throne because you can recur it with the Heliod land)

    Thoughts
    - Astral Drift is actually a pretty decent card, especially with the UW blade deck becoming more popular as it works well against shark tokens and the Batterskull germ
    - Now testing 4 Mana Tithe in the board as a catch-all for those matchups that are just a bit too fast / difficult to handle (i.e. combo/tron)
    - Maybe the red Akroma is possible as that SB slot because you can morph it and then target it with Astral Drift to flip it
    - Still seriously considering replacing the Grand Abolisher with Ranger-Captain of Eos, and then the last SB slot can be a tutor target:
    ----- Value creature: Weathered Wayfarer / Thraben Inspector
    ----- Threat/Finisher: Student of Warfare / Figure of Destiny
    ----- Removal/Disruption: Giant Killler / Judge's Familiar
    Possibly the Boseiju can also be cut for a 2nd one of these because a lot of the matchups where you want it tend to be playing Field of Ruins
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 07-28-2020 at 02:59 AM.

  17. #57

    Re: UW Enduring Ideal

    A version of this deck has got some 5-0s recently but it was a fairly different list that was more focused on naturally drawing a solemnity combo (4 Solemnity maindeck with 2 Unlife and 3-4 Ninelives)
    I don't know if I'm a fan of that because it seems fairly inconsistent but maybe naturally drawing ninelives / unlife gives you enough time against most decks to the point that it's better than Runed Halo? (which that list was not playing)

    3 Wall of Omens 1white 0.12
    2 Silence white 0.04
    4 Enduring Ideal 5whitewhite 2.36
    4 Lotus Bloom 3.12
    4 On Thin Ice white 5.92
    2 Greater Auramancy 1white 1.38
    3 Suppression Field 1white 0.45
    1 Ghostly Prison 2white 0.90
    3 Nine Lives 1whitewhite 0.18
    2 Phyrexian Unlife 2white 3.54
    4 Solemnity 2white 1.68
    4 Leyline of Sanctity 2whitewhite 17.12
    2 Form of the Dragon 4redredred 0.02
    4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx 10.60
    18 Snow-Covered Plains 1.62
    SB
    1 Pithing Needle 1 0.26
    3 Damping Sphere 2 0.57
    3 Grand Abolisher whitewhite 7.17
    2 Rest in Peace 1white 10.02
    2 Torpor Orb 2 1.62
    2 Archon of Sun's Grace 2whitewhite 0.10
    2 Gideon's Intervention 2whitewhite 0.04
    75 Cards Total
    (on mtggoldfish from the last month there are 3 results with this list and one with -1 wall of omens +1 silence -1 ghostly prison +1 ninelives)

    Thoughts on this:
    - 4 Maindeck thin Ice is probably good and from my previous list I would cut 2 of the cast out to fit this (which also opens up 2 sb slots)
    - No Dovescape anywhere in the 75 is interesting and I'm not sure if that's correct
    - Every time I have played this deck I have been really disappointed with Suppression Field UNLESS there is a really popular meta deck that gets totally shut down by it (Splinter Twin etc). Just using it and hoping to randomly tax the opponent's fetchlands or whatever has disappointed me every time because the deck's gameplan is so slow that your opponent usually has time to build up mana to the point where they can easily ignore it
    - I don't mind the idea of playing 5-6 copies of unlife/9lives maindeck because these will protect you approximately as well as Runed Halo (which this deck is not playing) a lot of the time (sometimes better) but 4x Solemnity is a bit worrisome in that it's a card that just does nothing by itself. I could even see myself trimming some of this for e.g Idyllic Tutor.
    - I didn't feel the need for Greater Auramancy when testing my build but between Nevermore / Dovescape / Splendor you can shut down basically every form of targeted removal anyway (while also stopping your opponent from developing their wincondition, in the case of Splendor and Dovescape). So you do need some card for this role but it just depends whether you value having more power out of your ideal toolbox or having cards that are more easily castable by themselves. I did consider playing Privileged Position for a while, which I think is a reasonable option (it costs more but it gives everything hexproof and adds a lot of devotion).
    - No temples or utility lands maindeck is interesting (this deck still easily has enough snow sources for Thin Ice even if you cut some plains)
    - The extra mana of Gideon's Intervention compared to Nevermore feels important to me (e.g. against Primeval Titan)
    - I considered Damping Sphere as the anti-tron card but was not happy with the interaction with Nykthos, maybe you are so reliant on Lotus Bloom to have a chance in that matchup that it doesn't matter and it's also good against other decks (Amulet, Storm)
    - Archon of Suns grace is an interesting option for that 'Sigil of the Empty Throne' sb slot

    Overall I was relatively happy with my list and if I didn't adopt the solemnity idea I would play something like this going forward:
    4 Temple
    4 Nykthos
    12 Plains
    1 Mistveil Plains
    1 Hall of Heliod
    1 Arch of Orazca

    4 Bloom
    4 Ideal

    4 Wall of Omens

    4 Thin Ice
    4 Runed Halo
    4 Astral Drift
    1 Nevermore
    1 Sacred Mesa
    1 Unlife
    4 Leyline
    2 Cast Out
    1 Sphere of Safety
    1 Dovescape
    1 Dragon
    1 Overwhelming Splendor

    Sideboard
    4 Mana Tithe
    4 Grand Abolisher
    1 Boseiju
    3 Nevermore
    1 Heliod God of the Sun
    2 [x] (Probably 1 RIP + something)

    - I have still been liking the Wall/Drift 'package' so far
    - I like Heliod over the Archon against midrange/control but the Archon is better against aggressive decks. I think Archon is a good 2nd choice because I think the important factors for this SB slot are that it doesn't get hit by FoN/Stub and that it doesn't get destroyed by Disenchants (So going forward I probably would not consider playing things like Starfield of Nyx or Sigil of the Empty Throne) . Overall I think I prefer Heliod because I don't think the deck needs too much extra help vs aggro/burn and the fact that you can rebuy it with Hall is pretty useful.
    - Mana Tithe has been alright as a catch-all / gotcha against things you otherwise can't interact with very well but I could see it being cut for other cards if there are more specific things you want to hate out
    - Nevermore is okay but maybe 4 copies is wrong, and like mana tithe some number can probably be cut for more targeted hate

    my instinct if I wanted to play a build with maindeck solemnity is to start with something like this:

    4 Temple
    4 Nykthos
    12 Plains
    1 Mistveil Plains
    1 Hall of Heliod
    1 Arch of Orazca
    4 Bloom
    4 Ideal
    1 Idyllic Tutor
    4 Wall of Omens
    4 Thin Ice
    4 Solemnity
    4 Astral Drift
    1 Sacred Mesa
    2 Unlife
    4 Leyline
    2 9Lives
    2 Some combo of Dovescape / Splendor / PrivPos / Auramancy
    1 Dragon

    I don't know whether it's worth it to play maindeck silence, it does help a lot against counterspell decks g1 but idk if it's effective enough against the wider meta for that to be a card you want to play in the main

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