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Thread: GB Vengevine

  1. #281
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    The issue is you don't have strong ways of getting Bridge into your yard. Hogaak enables it with Altar of Dementia and milling a minimum of 4 cards with Supplier and Vengevine, 8 for a single Hogaak. That is how Bridge gets busted wide open. Otherwise you're still just trying to luck-draw Bridge with an enabler out. You will almost never have more than one Bridge in the yard, and you don't have Alter/Hogaak turbo-charging it. I don't think it's worth the loss of consistency cutting Looting and Troll. I think you will eventually just land on a tweaked version of Hogaak, which is fine! If this thread discussion leads to development of a modified Hogaak list then its worthwhile.
    The intention of Bridge in the list I posted isn't to get all of them into the graveyard; they are just another threat that gets discarded by a 1cc outlet, that creates some amount of 2/2 creatures for free when other creatures die or get sacrificed. It's basically more redundancy of cards that we want to discard.

    Your Hogaak argument of filling the yard is just as applicable to everything else, be it Bloodghast, Vengevine, or whatever. That deck obviously puts more total resources into the graveyard. That's not the point in here. Just think of Bridge as another card we want to discard like Vengevine or Prized Amalgam, which ends up putting creatures into play for free when certain other conditions are met.

    An opening hand of say land, Imp, Hollow One, Vengevine, Bridge from Below, and Cabal Therapy (with whatever else) gives us a hand where we have enough cards we actually want to discard to enable Hollow One, while also triggering Vengevine, with a bonus Bridge from Below in the yard that we can get immediate value out of with the Cabal Therapy flashback, and that can continue to generate additional value in the future.

    Past the initial burst, Bridge from Below can continue to generate value when our creatures die or we sac them to Feeder or Therapy (usually when we can recur them). Drawing multiple Bridges is not even unlikely.

    Once we have a Carrion Feeder with a Gravecrawler or Undiscovered Paradise + Bloodghast assembled, we can turn those into an engine to generate more tokens. Vengevine and Prized Amalgam can also be sac'd and recurred after combat to generate tokens too.

    Adding what is essentially more redundancy is in a way increasing consistency. I'm not saying the idea is more or less consistent or even better than the Looting + Troll list, but I don't think it should just be dismissed without consideration either.

    The Bridge list does some very interesting things that the Looting variation lacks. It has more relevant plays that it can make past turn 1. It improves our consistency of recurring Amalgam by giving us 10 cards that can do so vs 8 (with 2 Gravecrawler). It gives us greater resiliency to Swords to Plowshares and Terminus with Carrion Feeder (instead of relying on Stain the Mind). It makes our Cabal Therapy's better. The list also has more 1cc creatures to make it easier to recast Vengevine in the midgame, especially with Gravecrawler recursion.

    The broken turn 1 starts aren't any less consistent. I simply changed the dynamics of the turn 2+ plays by changing the engine. For what it's worth, I feel like the Looting engine has better synergy with Hollow One, while this engine has better synergy with the rest of the deck.

    None of these changes make Hogaak any more viable in this list. The Hollow One lists simply do not feed the delve cost of Hogaak enough to make him worth it.

    I also don't want to turn the Hollow One lists into a Hogaak deck. The entire reason for the extra discard outlets, Rootwalla, Hollow One, and Lotus Petal is that the deck is significantly faster. Where sometimes the Hogaak deck can be slow to get onto the board, we can often flood the board on turn 1. We lack the raw power, but we make up for that by overwhelming the opponent before they can handle it. We can often get under the hate, expose our graveyard less, and have extra resiliency with Cavern of Souls.

    Maybe 8 discard outlets with only 3 Once Upon a Time and 12 lands isn't consistent enough... in which case, it's back to the drawing board. I'm also not necessarily against trimming a Carrion Feeder for the 4th Once Upon a Time if it's necessary, but I think the configuration I have listed is the base that I would want to begin playtesting with. I've already fine-tuned the Looting list pretty thoroughly, so I see no harm in trying out something else.

    All I'm saying is don't knock it until you try it. Experimenting with different variations is sort of the point of this thread, is it not?
    Last edited by Hanni; 09-30-2020 at 03:45 PM.
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  2. #282
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Sure thing, just didn't think the loss of looting was worth it. I get where you're coming from. I think you want 4 OUAT in your list, 12 lands without Looting is scary low.
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  3. #283
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I have been jamming this list, with promising results. It isn't as fast as the rainbow version, but it's a lot more resilient. It can still put a bunch of dudes on the table t1 occasionally, but its much more focused on crafting an explosive turn 2-3. I ended up with fewer fast outlets (down to 5 with Imp/Troll) and some fairly big changes (cutting Rootwalla.) It plays better than it looks. I'm going to continue testing it. The cards aren't as synergistic (Thoughtseize over Therapy, Shadow over Rootwalla) but they are much more individually powerful, making the house of cards less likely to fall down.

    Creatures - 29
    4x Putrid Imp
    4x Death's Shadow
    4x Bloodghast
    4x Prized Amalgam
    4x Vengevine
    4x Hollow One
    4x Street Wraith
    1x Lotleth Troll

    Spells - 18
    4x Lotus Petal
    4x Careful Study
    3x Once Upon a Time
    3x Thoughtseize
    3x Daze
    1x Reanimate

    Lands - 13
    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Verdant Catacombs
    3x Watery Grave
    1x Bayou
    1x Swamp
    1x Island

    Sideboard
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Faerie Macabre
    3x Force of Will
    2x Brazen Borrower
    2x Silent Gravestone
    2x Dismember
    1x Karakas
    1x Cabal Therapy


    I get t1 Hollow One more often, but sometimes only Hollow One. However, I also get t1 Thoughtseize plus Daze that really stunts opponents and allows for protected starts. Cavern makes for uncounterable outlets, but if the swarm is answered we're really not that favored to restart. Now I can just use pure velocity (Study/Wraith) to dig into 6/6+ Shadows to close out games. Sideboard is completely rough right now, but serviceable. Not quite sure what to do about tribal decks like Elves and Goblins, haven't tested against them yet. I have tested against D&T and it's not too bad pre-board, Dismember helps post-board.

    I've posted lists like this before, which haven't worked out so well. I think the addition of Prized Amalgam (wasn't there before) and Once Upon a Time have made this setup much better.
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  4. #284
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Testing has been promising against D&T, Sneak/Show, and against UWx Stoneblade. It's basically a hyper-aggressive UB shadow deck that trims on some tempo but gets on the board much faster, to the point that racing is a legitimate strategy even against combo. I sound like a broken record, but Daze is just incredible here. Gone is the tempo denial plan of Wasteland/Force of Will/Daze and instead it's just 'protect the combo turn with Daze.' Much more often I am spending turn 1 just digging with OUAT/Careful Study ord playing a Thoughtseize, sometimes with Daze available. This means I'm slower onto the board (turns 2-3 instead of turns 1-2) but it means there are much fewer non-games where I am not pressured into going all-in turn 1 because that's all I can do with the opening hand. However, when I do draw into an amazing t1 I sometimes have it with Daze backup, which is just crushing. The most significant thing I've noticed in about 15 games or so is that I still have about the same odds of having a broken t1.

    I was having trouble getting Death's Shadow online fast enough in some matchups, which is where I cut 1x Troll for 1x Reanimate. Reanimate is great early for Street Wraith, but it's perfectly serviceable with a Vengevine or Hollow One. It drops my life total and gets a big threat for B. Late game it can grab a killed Pimp to re-combo or just grab a killed Death's Shadow.

    The biggest difference is that I don't get Rootwalla for 0, but so far paying B for Shadow instead is just so much more powerful. Rootwalla just didn't do enough when not enabling multiple graveyard threats. Shadow still enables graveyard threats for cheap and is usually a 4/4+ by turns 3-4. I hit my land drops a lot more consistently as well given Street Wraith/Study/Once Upon a Time. Before with just Looting/Once I still missed out on lands. I'm very happy with this setup so far.

    The sideboard is a mess, but it's something I can work on as I develop game plans. I think I want Sylvan Library and Darkblast (Firestorm is out now that I've cut red for blue.) Chalice is definitely a concern, so there needs to be an answer for that in there. Engineered Explosives seems to be ok, maybe Ratchet Bomb. I need to have enough blue sideboard cards to sideboard into the Forces. I have 11 maindeck blue cards, and I need to get up to a minimum 16-18 to make the forces work. With Thoughtseize already maindeck I don't need to mulligan into Force too hard post-board, but having some anti-combo cards isn't a bad thing. I'm not sure what those blue cards should be, but I'm working on it. Brazen Borrower is one option.

    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Faerie Macabre
    4x Force of Will
    2x Brazen Borrower
    2x Dismember
    1x Darkblast
    1x Engineered Explosives
    1x Sylvan Library
    1x Karakas

    The other blue cards I'm looking at: Echoing Truth, Spell Pierce, Oko (risky, but the payoff is pretty big), Force of Negation, Drown in the Loch. I think for the simple sake of Marit Lage and Chalice of the Void it has to be Borrower, but I'm open to suggestions. Ideally those 2 blue cards would be good enough in the matchups I want Force of Will because I will want to sideboard them in to support the Forces pretty much every time.
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  5. #285
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I think Carrion Feeder does more for the deck than Death's Shadow. If you can reliably recur your creatures, it doesn't take very long for Carrion Feeder to grow into a threat as large or larger than Death's Shadow, with the benefit of sacrificing your creatures to protect them from Swords to Plowshares (and Terminus). The Carrion Feeder list I posted also has Bridge from Below to make Carrion Feeder even better. Carrion Feeder cannot block, but you should almost always be the aggressor with this deck anyways.

    I respect your interaction package of Thoughtseize and Daze, although I do think that Cavern of Souls does enough to protect the combo turn, while also giving you better outs to Chalice of the Void.

    I definitely do not agree with cutting Tireless Tribe, but I'm glad that the list you posted has been performing well for you. Given that your deck is a bit slower now, have you put any consideration into trying the standard Hogaak deck? It has roughly the same fundamental turn as you do, but with much more powerful midgame plays.
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  6. #286
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Thanks for the feedback! I'll try and answer the questions/points in a way that explains why I decided for Death's Shadow specifically.

    1) Carrion Feeder not blocking isn't the issue at all, it's the fact that Death's Shadow needs no extra work to make it huge. Fetch/shocks, Thoughtseize, and Street Wraith all support multiple aspects of the deck but most importantly Hollow One and Death's Shadow. The more I play this I think there needs to be more emphasis on enabling Hollow One. It's the replacement for Delver, which is easier to flip and build around but also weaker to common non-Swords removal. The most common removal being played is Lightning Bolt right now. While the Carrion Feeder synergy is good with Bridge from Below, it's just too close to standard Hogaak for me. I feel like I would naturally end up at Hogaak. Carrion Feeder top-decked on turn 5 is lousy. Death's Shadow top decked on turn 5 is pure gas.

    2) Thoughtseize and Daze are, simply put, better interaction than Cabal Therapy. When I trimmed Rootwalla the only creature I could profitably sacrifice to enable Therapy was Bloodghast. Thoughtseize and Daze are both much better at combating combo decks, and usually better against all decks in the early game. I'm the type of player that likes combo-esque decks but I don't like the polarizing play style (win big or lose big.) I'd rather dial back the all-in synergy, add cards that are individually good, and attempt something that can level out the wild up-and-down of the deck's performance. Again, I haven't noticed a discernable drop in t1 combos when compared to the Looting setup. I have noticed easier enabled Hollow Ones and just a ton of velocity t1 in almost every game, whereas with Looting/Tribe I was having to mullilgan a lot more often and relying on a t2 combo anyways. I may not get a Putrid Imp, Vengevine, Hollow One start in every game but I might cycle a Street Wraith, play a Thoughtseize/Careful Study, and have Daze ready. That is a perfectly acceptable "combo" for the first turn, and still allows me to craft an explosive board presence.

    3) Tireless Tribe was a necessary evil, one that led to all-in first turns. However, some of those first turns only ended up with a couple Rootwallas and a Hollow One, and I was just short of racing opponents before they stabilized. I don't want anemic threats like Rootwalla/Tribe, I feel Legacy needs bigger dudes to compete. The impetus of this thought was how good Troll ended up being; it was light years better than Tribe in every situation. I have cut to one copy to squeeze in a Reanimate, but that will likely go back to 2 copies again. Reanimate is the 'cute one of' that has shown up in Shadow occasionally that enables shadow and makes Street Wraith a legitimate threat. It's also another way to enable Prized Amalgams more consistently. My approach is this: rather than have a critical mass of synergy with anamic threats I would rather have ways of digging to the best threats and enable those ones.

    4) I haven't really considered going to standard Hogaak, but I'm open to playing Hogaak in this list (possibly.) With a lower critical mass of creatures I don't think it would work out, but on the other hand I consistently fill my graveyard with excess chaff to pay the delve cost (fetches, Street Wraith, thoughtseize, daze, careful study all provide non-essential fodder.) My first goal is to get 30+ games under my belt to see how it performs, then use that experience to determine tweaks. I think I'm going to want at least 1 more Troll, possibly 2. I think I'm going to want Naturalize (the new flexible one) or Abrupt Decay instead of Force of Vigor. Chalice is one concern but Leyline of the Void is another bad one, although I am much more resilient to Leyline with a stronger focus on Shadow/Hollow One/hard-cast Amalgams. I can actually cut Vengevine from the deck post-board. I might want a Breeding Pool in the deck, maybe not. I might even be able to play an extra land and Oko in my sideboard. The flexibility of this setup is so much better than the all-in Hollow-Vine aggro plan.

    5) I can do a passable impression of UB shadow post-board with Forces and Dismember, and if there's a deck that hates on combo harder than UB Shadow I haven't heard of it. Fast clock, great disruption. I want graveyard-aggro-Shadow. I am also much better equipped with my current card pool to do this because I already had UB Shadow built; I don't have the Caverns, Undiscovered Paradise, and Mana Confluence to enable the perfect mana.

    I hope that answers your questions. It will still be soft to Swords to Plowshares (like any Shadow deck), it will have a hard time against Terminus (like any go-wide strategy), and it will be slightly weak to graveyard hate. What I gain back for conceding those points is bigger creatures (Shadow), more resiliency to post-board hate, and a higher level of consistency.

    EDIT: I have a statement from Bryant Cook rumbling around in the back of my mind as well: he said recently (concerning Vintage Paradoxical Outcome) that he would rather play some cards that are a solid 7 always than cards that are a 10 sometimes (scale of 1-10.) I'm trying to give the deck an overall power boost, but that means cutting some cards that are always a 10 for other cards that are only a 7. However I am also getting rid of some of the cards that are only a 3 and getting a card that is a solid 6 in return. The overall level of the deck goes up even if some of the synergy is sacrificed to do it.

    EDIT #2: New sideboard, I conceded that Oko is likely the most powerful blue card to include alongside the force of wills, even if it isn't great against combo decks. It's blue fodder and a way to stabilize. I'm still on the fence about Nature's Claim and Veil of Summer. I may want to just focus on dealing with the board rather than trying to interact on the stack. I'm a little thin on ways to deal with Marit Lage, Reanimator, and Sneak/Show.dec.

    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Sylvan Library
    1x Oko, Thief of Crowns
    4x Force of Will
    1x Engineered Explosives
    1x Silent Gravestone
    2x Dismember
    2x Sickening Dreams
    1x Karakas
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 09-24-2020 at 08:05 AM.
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  7. #287
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I know this distracts from the Tireless Tribe versions, but I tweaked another Hogaak list that I'm pretty happy with.

    UBg Hogaak

    Lands (17)
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Dryad Arbor

    Creatures (20)
    4 Hedron Crab
    4 Stitcher's Supplier
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    Spells (23)
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Careful Study
    3 Once Upon a Time
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Altar of Dementia
    4 Bridge from Below

    Sideboard (15)
    4 Force of Will
    1 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Abrupt Decay
    2 Brazen Borrower
    1 Plague Engineer
    1 Reclamation Sage
    2 Faerie Macabre
    1 Silent Gravestone
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Karakas

    Basically, this is a 180 from my other list, cutting the extra creatures (and Cavern of Souls) for more cantrips. The idea here is that between the cantrips, Crab, and Supplier, the deck is ridiculously consistent. Brainstorm not only fixes hands, it also helps the deck dig into Altar of Dementia much better. The deck is able to trim lands, Gravecrawler, and Hogaak because of how much dig the deck has.

    The cantrips cost a bit of tempo, and therefore the list loses a bit of speed for getting onto the board, but the deck is much more capable of assembling the best pieces to combo off faster.

    The sideboard probably still needs some work, and Force of Vigor might not be worth it with how low the green spell count is.
    Last edited by Hanni; 09-24-2020 at 07:01 PM.
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  8. #288
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    That's just a variation of Hogaak. That's not really the same deck anymore... no Hollow One, no 8Pimp, self-mill...

  9. #289
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I know, but I couldn't find a thread for standard Hogaak, just Depths Hogaak.

    I'd hate to start a new thread for an established deck by starting it off with an experimental list, and I don't feel like typing up a primer for the two tried and true versions (Jund and the regular Sultai lists).

    As far as the list I posted, I wonder if Force of Will + Brazen Borrower would be a better sideboard plan...

    EDIT 1: Trimmed a Cabal Therapy for a Putrid Imp. Being able to dig into a discard outlet with Once Upon a Time seems like a good idea. Also decided to try out Force of Will in the sideboard.

    EDIT 2: Brainstorm is actually pretty sick in addition to Hedron Crab and Stitcher's Supplier, acting like a Careful Study to bin Bloodghast and Vengevine by putting them on top and then milling them. Probably don't even need the Putrid Imp, tbh. Probably better off with a 3rd Hogaak or back up to 4 Therapy.

    EDIT 3: I know I keep rapidly changing things around. Blame it on my ADD baby. Gravecrawler just seems straight up worse than Hogaak. It makes sense in other lists to run it in addition to Hogaak, but with the amount of dig that I have, it's just a subpar version of Hogaak himself. Yeah, it can be cast from the yard with a single zombie on board or not enough food in the yard, but those conditions seem fairly fringe given rest of the deck. Gravecrawler does trigger Vengevine easier than double casting Hogaak, but it makes more sense to run 4 Hogaak before any Gravecrawler.

    The argument I had for multiple Hogaak's being redundant in hand makes less sense with Brainstorm. Brainstorm can shuffle extras away. The fact is, the combo is Hogaak + Altar with Bridges in the yard, so I should be maxing out on Hogaak to make that happen. More Hogaak means more consistency for casting Hogaak on turn 2, so it is what it is.

    With 4 Hogaak, I'm fine with trimming Gravecrawler completely and going back up to 4 Therapy. Milling into Therapy to sac Supplier, or even Crab for zombie tokens to enable Hogaak, are important play lines. Therapy itself is important for removing problems out of the opponent's hand. I'm pretty sure the optimal configuration should include 4.

    The list feels super streamlined now. I'm pretty sure the maindeck is the optimal configuration for Hogaak, tbh. The sideboard is still a work in progress, but the maindeck is sick. It's literally all of the most important cards, with a sufficient amount of engines and cantrips to ensure it does exactly what is supposed to do every time. The extra cantrips make digging for postboard answers extremely consistent as well.

    EDIT 4: Brazen Borrower is pretty sick in here. It can be grabbed with Once Upon a Time, deals with nearly everything you need it to, you can Therapy away the problem, and then you cast it as a creature later. End of turn bounce, untap and cast the creature, sac to Therapy to hit the card you bounced, make two zombie tokens with Bridges, cast Hogaak with the zombies, trigger Vengevines. Disgusting line out of nowhere.

    Once Upon a Time digging for Hedron Crab or Brazen Borrower at instant speed turn 1 on the draw to enable Force of Will is pretty sick, too.
    Last edited by Hanni; 09-24-2020 at 08:51 PM.
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    How many fetchlands are needed to feed Hedron Crab? Where I'm on a fetchland mana-base with Shadow/Vine now I'm wondering if it's worth playing Crab over Lotleth Troll. It could be another enabler for Vengevine/Bloodghast/Prized Amalgam. Getting the blue count higher only supports the Daze plan better, making the need for green mana even lower for the deck. Force of Will gets really easy to support out of the sideboard as well.

    EDIT: It looks like most are playing 10-11 fetchlands. With only 13 lands in my version I don't think that's possible. I think 8 fetches is about all it can handle, maybe 9.
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Yeah, I think you do not have the right support for Hedron Crab, and it's very bad with Hollow One anyway.

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    Re: GB Vengevine

    You're right, it's just fun to try and evaluate all the different ways you can enable these types of strategies in legacy. If I were to drop Hollow One there would be no good reason to continue, it would be better to just play BUG Hogaak.
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I know this distracts from the Tireless Tribe versions, but I tweaked another Hogaak list that I'm pretty happy with.

    UBg Hogaak

    Lands (17)
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Dryad Arbor

    Creatures (20)
    4 Hedron Crab
    4 Stitcher's Supplier
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    Spells (23)
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Careful Study
    3 Once Upon a Time
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Altar of Dementia
    4 Bridge from Below

    Sideboard (15)
    4 Force of Will
    1 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Abrupt Decay
    2 Brazen Borrower
    1 Plague Engineer
    1 Reclamation Sage
    2 Faerie Macabre
    1 Silent Gravestone
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Karakas

    Basically, this is a 180 from my other list, cutting the extra creatures (and Cavern of Souls) for more cantrips. The idea here is that between the cantrips, Crab, and Supplier, the deck is ridiculously consistent. Brainstorm not only fixes hands, it also helps the deck dig into Altar of Dementia much better. The deck is able to trim lands, Gravecrawler, and Hogaak because of how much dig the deck has.

    The cantrips cost a bit of tempo, and therefore the list loses a bit of speed for getting onto the board, but the deck is much more capable of assembling the best pieces to combo off faster.

    The sideboard probably still needs some work, and Force of Vigor might not be worth it with how low the green spell count is.
    I really like this list. I like how there are 12 enablers and 11 manipulation spells for consistency.

    However, I wonder if the current cards are all better than Gravecrawler. It seems to me that Crawler is an important card to have in the main as it combos with the mill effects, discard effects, Therapy, it's a VV and Hogaak enabler. Crawler is an important piece of synergy in this deck. Off the top of my head, Crawler enables plays like T1 Crab, T2 Supplier and if you have milled anything valuable off the potential 9 cards you can return VV via Crawler on T2. It makes sense to me that it is played in BUG Hogaak over Brainstorm. I would likely play something like Brainstorm over OUAT rather than Crawler.

    It seems to me you'd want something like this as a core:

    4 Hedron Crab
    4 Stitcher's Supplier
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Careful Study

    3-4 Altar of Dementia
    4 Bridge from Below


    I think we are discussing BUG Hogaak at this point but, hey, this is the VV thread!
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  14. #294
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Yeah, Hedron Crab is bad with Hollow One. Hedron Crab and Stitcher's Supplier are incredibly powerful, but are leveraged much better in the regular Hogaak decks.

    The value in the Hollow One lists vs regular Hogaak is the speed at getting onto the board, the resiliency to Chalice and Force of Will with Cavern of Souls, and the ability to get under some of the graveyard hate.

    Your Shadow list can get away with being slower since you have more graveyard independent threats and more disruption, but I'm still unsure how much better or worse that is than the Tireless Tribe route or the regular Hogaak route.

    EDIT: Also, for what it's worth, I'm really happy with the Bridge from Below list I posted a page back. I did cut a Carrion Feeder for the 4th Once Upon a Time to increase the consistency of the broken turn 1's, though.

    The loss of consistency from losing Looting is made up for with the redundancy that Feeder, Crawler, and Bridge from Below add to the deck.

    I have more cards that I want to discard, increased consistency of recurring Vengevine and Prized Amalgam with Gravecrawler, more sources of creatures coming into play for free and stronger Cabal Therapy's with Bridge from Below, and the resiliency to Swords to Plowshares and Terminus that Carrion Feeder offers.

    The list also works much better with my manabase. Sometimes, Cavern of Souls is my only land, which can't cast Faithless Looting, but can cast Carrion Feeder and Gravecrawler.
    Last edited by Hanni; 09-30-2020 at 04:20 PM.
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  15. #295
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    I really like this list. I like how there are 12 enablers and 11 manipulation spells for consistency.

    However, I wonder if the current cards are all better than Gravecrawler. It seems to me that Crawler is an important card to have in the main as it combos with the mill effects, discard effects, Therapy, it's a VV and Hogaak enabler. Crawler is an important piece of synergy in this deck. Off the top of my head, Crawler enables plays like T1 Crab, T2 Supplier and if you have milled anything valuable off the potential 9 cards you can return VV via Crawler on T2. It makes sense to me that it is played in BUG Hogaak over Brainstorm. I would likely play something like Brainstorm over OUAT rather than Crawler.

    It seems to me you'd want something like this as a core:

    4 Hedron Crab
    4 Stitcher's Supplier
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Careful Study

    3-4 Altar of Dementia
    4 Bridge from Below


    I think we are discussing BUG Hogaak at this point but, hey, this is the VV thread!
    Well, Gravecrawler certainly does help enable faster lines with Stitcher's Supplier on the board. My line of thinking though was that the deck is capable of functioning without it, using Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below to enable Hogaak, and Hogaak can contribute to triggering Vengevine, but I'm sure Gravecrawler would make getting onto the board on turn 2 more consistent.

    The point of Brainstorm was to make the deck more consistent overall towards assembling the kill with Altar + Bridge + Hogaak. It fixes hands, getting rid of excess redundant cards, digs towards Altar of Dementia, and allows the deck to trim on lands. This version is less consistent at getting onto the board on turn 2, but more consistent at actually killing the opponent with the combo.

    Brainstorm also helps prevent the durdle hands that don't do much, by digging into an engine creature (Supplier/Crab), and then puts cards from hand (like Bridge) on top to be milled by an engine creature to get the deck going. In standard lists, sometimes the deck gets its initial creature countered and stutters while it waits to draw into something else to get going.

    Brainstorm also makes fighting against hate postboard easier.

    It may simply be correct to cut Brainstorm for Gravecrawler, but it's an experimental list that I wanted to try out.

    Another thing I want to try is Daze, which has synergy with Crab and Bloodghast, and gives the deck a lot more resiliency.

    EDIT: Just want to point out that turn 1 Supplier, turn 2 Crab is better than vice versa, because it allows you to mill 6 with Crab (with a fetchland) regardless of if they have a spot removal for it or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

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