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Thread: GB Vengevine

  1. #21
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Wow, excellent post. Many thanks. I have been trying to figure out how to accelerate correctly and now I've been debating Birds of Paradise instead of Dark Ritual. DR means I can do two things: t1 setups with Buried Alive or some combination of discard/Imps, or feed the bigger cost creatures in the mid-game. Birds of Paradise means I am offering up a Bolt target and at the earliest t2 Buried Alive/combos. However, Birds trigger Vengevine and work with Lotleth Troll. The biggest reason for avoiding Lotleth Troll so far is that it can only discard creatures for value whereas Imp and Brutality can discard any dead cards to enable Hollow Ones. Wild Mongrel is easier to cast and can also discard anything for value. Dark Ritual was also there to enable a smaller land count (18) while allowing me to hard-cast Street Wraiths/Hollow Ones in the mid-game even though I didn't have a discard outlet. Street Wraiths also help me dig for lands.

    I like the zombie engine, it's very powerful, especially with the grow creatures of Carrion Feeder/Troll. I'm a little wary of conditional threats beyond fast VV's and HO's, just because the investment can be undone so easily. I just want to spam a bunch of 4 power dudes out and get attacking.

    What I really like, easily the most informative part of your post, is the templating that you laid out. That is exactly what I needed to really start evaluating card choices and ratios. Awesome.

    Interesting point about Scavenging Ooze (which I am really leaning towards out of the board): it can fizzle a Surgical Extraction while growing. I think of all the super-gro creatures you have listed this is easily the best, with Carrion Feeder being 2nd due to efficiency. I don't want Tarmogoyf's out of the board, they will already be gunning for the graveyard. Scavenging Ooze allows my cycling creatures to do double duty (Wraiths and Hollows) by drawing me cards and making a big Scooze.

    Confidant I've already addressed: it's pretty risky given Hollow Ones, Street Wraiths, and Vengevines potentially digging my own life total hard. Hollow One is what is really driving me to build this so I think for now Dark Confidant needs to be on the back burner for card testing.

    As for splashes, these are the two I'm considering: red for Looting + PFire/Grove engine and white for StP + Lingering Souls. Both of those have value cards that can be discarded to enable Hollow Ones. Both offer some decent sideboard options as well, something Bg might struggle with.

    Again, super big thanks.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 02-11-2019 at 09:06 PM.
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  2. #22

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Thanks. Glad to be of help brewing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    The biggest reason for avoiding Lotleth Troll so far is that it can only discard creatures for value
    Yeah that's the biggest drawback. In my original build, I hedged by running a higher creature count and Wild Mongrels too (to pitch extra lands for value). DRS also helped fix the harder mana cost and get value out of discarded lands. Lots of synergy.

    Also, without Hollow Ones it was less important to be able to pitch multiple lands early.

    However, Birds trigger Vengevine and work with Lotleth Troll.
    That's why I went with dorks. They're a turn slower but more synergistic and better topdecks. Topdeck Ritual is bad. Topdeck dork triggers Vengevine, sacs to Carrion Feeder, or pitches to Troll. Both Vengevine and Troll want a high creature count. Also with DRS it was a no-brainer. That card was too good not to play in BG. Birds is less clear-cut.


    Wild Mongrel is easier to cast and can also discard anything for value.
    If you like Mongrel, consider Noose Constrictor. It blocks Delvers and Phoenixes. Most cards today don't care about color.

    Also, if you're playing stuff like PImp/Mongrel/Constrictor over Trolls, Lingering Souls is on the table. I couldn't run it because I needed creatures.


    Street Wraiths also help me dig for lands.
    Is Street Wraith that good? It helps you dig for the card you would have drawn if Street Wraith wasn't there. It has no relevant interaction with Vengevine, Buried Alive, Bloodghast or discard outlets. Best case it reduces Hollow One's cost by 2 but you still need another discard outlet, either Collective Brutality with 3 modes (needs targets) or PImp/Mongrel. Would it be better to just pitch 2-3 cards that want to be in your yard?

    Wraith leads to more awkward mulligans in combo decks. It might do the same here.

    Interesting point about Scavenging Ooze (which I am really leaning towards out of the board): it can fizzle a Surgical Extraction while growing.
    Yeah, both that and DRS could for value.

    Goyf isn't great when they bring in gravehate, but Scooze can have the same problem (e.g. with Relic and Rest in Peace). I was happy with a mix. You may want to start with 4 Oozes and see how it goes.

    I like the zombie engine, it's very powerful, especially with the grow creatures of Carrion Feeder/Troll.
    Carrion Feeder was great for me because it grows quickly (also grows with Bloodghasts + fetches/Paradise!), but also because it protects your guys from exile/Terminus or lets you profit when they try to kill things. If they shoot removal at Carrion Feeder instead of bigger threats, you're doing well, because it cost you so little investment. It's like Spellskite in that sense.

    Viscera Seer could work for card selection. Sac outlets enable a more resilient midgame.

    I'm a little wary of conditional threats beyond fast VV's and HO's
    It's a risk. The nice thing is the threats all depend on different conditions, but in a way that synergizes. Troll is a discard outlet that grows. HO wants you to discard things but doesn't care about gravehate. VV and recursive threats want to be pitched to your graveyard, but can also be found with Buried Alive without a discard outlet. Carrion Feeder protects recursive threats, or it can eat dorks and tokens even if you have no graveyard or discard outlet.

    Feeder may not be up your alley, but it's helpful to diversify threats instead of going too linear.

    Confidant I've already addressed: it's pretty risky given Hollow Ones, Street Wraiths, and Vengevines potentially digging my own life total hard.
    True. My build capped at 4cc with Vengevines. No Hollow Ones or Street Wraiths.

    Asylum Visitor might be a non-awful alternative to Bob in a high curve deck. You're dumping your hand fast anyway, and you can cast it for Madness.

    I like the white splash for Lingering Souls, especially with Carrion Feeders. At that point you're getting closer to Zombardment.

    PFire offers removal that you otherwise lack. See which you need more of in your games: threats or answers.

    Just be careful about running too many spells and not enough ways to get back Vengevines. I had that problem before. You need enough low cost creatures, otherwise well-timed hand disruption can shut you off Vengevine.

  3. #23
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I think of all the suggestions Carrion Feeder is by far the best. Its another cheap creature to trigger Vines and the synergy with Bloodghast is pretty big (same with Troll.)

    You've really got me thinking about cutting Street Wraiths. It only helps Hollow One drops. I think that is the first spot to start considering Feeder/Troll/Viscera Seer slots.

    I'll work out some numbers based on the templates you put forth. That will help me get to the right spot.

    Edit: oh yeah, if i decide to go Troll + Gravecrawlers i would jam some Mutavaults in there.
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  4. #24
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Updated list, I think I'm getting closer.

    4x Putrid Imp
    4x Birds of Paradise
    4x Basking Rootwalla
    4x Vengevine
    4x Bloodghast
    4x Hollow One
    3x Lotleth Troll
    2x Gurmag Angler
    1x Vengeful Pharaoh

    3x Thoughtseize
    2x Cabal Therapy
    3x Buried Alive
    2x Collective Brutality
    2x Abrupt Decay

    4x Verdant Catacombs
    2x Marsh Flats
    2x Windswept Heath
    1x Bayou
    2x Blooming Marsh
    4x Swamp
    2x Forest
    1x Treetop Village

    Sideboard
    3x Scavenging Ooze
    2x Hymn to Tourach
    1x Maelstrom Pulse
    2x Sylvan Library
    4x Faerie Macabre
    2x Diabolic Edict
    1x Darkblast


    So that gives me 30 creatures, which is around the number I think is needed based on most of the lists posted. I took out Street Wraiths because they were only there to feed Hollow One. Putrid Imp and Lotleth Troll should do the same thing but with more upside, less downside. Birds are now my acceleration, which still allow for a t2 Buried Alive. Breaking it down:

    Spam-threats - 14 (Vengevine, Hollow One, Bloodghast, Gurmag Angler)
    Graveyard enablers - 12 (Putrid Imp, Lotleth Troll, Collective Brutality, Buried Alive)
    Disruption - 10 (Thoughtseize, Therapy, Brutality, Decay, Pharaoh)
    Acceleration/Enablers - 8 (Birds, Rootwalla)
    Lands -18

    I think this is a good place to start. It is lower on disruption than a typical Rock/Eva-Green deck but it is also very focused on it's own game plan. I think for a deck like this in this slower metagame, it needs to force opponent's to deal with what it is doing rather than try and answer what they are doing. It will always have the same weakness to combo decks where discard is too slow, other than graveyard decks which I think it can deal with just fine (Faerie Macabre, Scooze.) The alternative take I think (in straight Bg) is to cut the Anglers/shave a couple other spots to get in Carrion Feeders. I like that approach, especially where it rewards Bloodghasts and fetchlands.

    My one big quandary now is how to sideboard. Taking the creature count down is ok if I'm replacing it with creatures (Scooze, Faerie) but cramming in the disruption will make some cuts more challenging. I suppose the weakest links are Bloodghasts and Rootwallas, especially if I'm trying to work around hate and hard-cast Vengevines. Those are basically just engine pieces. With Dark Ritual it was easy to just board out the rituals, but I also feel like I would be siding out Rituals a lot. It makes sense to just make the maindeck more solid and figure out sideboarding later.

    If I play this week, this will be the list I take. I need 3x Birds of Paradise but I'm sure the shop has them. If not I can sub in Elves of Deep Shadow or Llanowar Elves in some number to make up for it.
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  5. #25
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    The strength of this deck is the ability to put multiple threats into play on turns 1-2. For that reason, I would splash white for Tireless Tribe and run Lotus Petal. Putrid Imp and Basking Rootwalla are obviously critical pieces, in addition to the Vengevines and Hollow Ones. What you add in addition to that is up to you. Most of the best other options have already been suggested in previous posts.

    Buried Alive aside, there's really no reason to run mana dorks. The deck is built to cheat on mana, and while the mana dorks could help to hardcast Vengevines, you really don't need to hit 3+ mana often. Dark Ritual is going to be better in a Buried Alive shell, if you go that route.
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  6. #26
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    This looks interesting! I just wanted to add a link to this decklist that ChristoferV has been experimenting with, it's a fair shell around Fauna Shaman and Vengevine. It's built more for fun than to be super competitive at this point, as I think ChristoferV put it, but since you discussed such an approach recently I thought why not link it.

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1062699

    I started messing with a list myself but nothing reasonable came out of it yet. I think Prized Amalgam seems pretty good, and you get Brainstorms too if you go for a BUG version, so I'll have a look at that. I think if going for Dark Rituals, Hymn is a pretty useful maindeck inclusion. T1 Dark Ritual into Thoughtseize and Hymn is a pretty good way to buy time vs both combo and control decks. The combo in this version, any Vengevine + Buried Alive/Intuition deck, is less aggressive it seems than a Phoenix version, so you probably need to build it a bit more controlling. Then Hymn seem like they could work. Disrupt the opponent, then smash in with your grindy creatures.

    If going for a control version, it might make sense to use Intuition instead, and this would also open up for 1 of Loam + 1 Wasteland. I guess this is going too far at this point though, it's probably better to start with an aggressive version.
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  7. #27
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Honestly, Buried Alive just seems too slow for what this deck wants to be doing. The strength here is flooding the board on turns 1-2, and the only time Buried Alive is going to contribute to that is if you can ritual it out on turn 1.

    When I get a few minutes, I'll put together a list that I would start from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  8. #28
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    for vengevine i like intuition. at least you can then end step intuition for 3 vengevine, then on your main phase cast vengevine and a 1 drop then attack for 12. cloudvine ftw.
    -rob

  9. #29
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Honestly, Buried Alive just seems too slow for what this deck wants to be doing. The strength here is flooding the board on turns 1-2, and the only time Buried Alive is going to contribute to that is if you can ritual it out on turn 1.

    When I get a few minutes, I'll put together a list that I would start from.
    Looking forward to the list!

    I think I will end up cutting some number of Buried Alive, probably 1-2. I think it is likely better on curve to replenish if I get hosed after a turn 1-2 spamming. Even getting 3x Bloodghast with Buried Alive is a decent amount of pressure.

    I really like the Lotus Petal idea. I don't like the mana-dorks as non-threats either, I just saw them as a necessity. Lotus Petal provides green, which means I can do t1 Lotleth Troll. The most busted starts are always t1 Putrid Imp so t1 Troll is very similar. Definitely doing that because Dark Ritual doesn't make green mana. EDIT: Call me crazy, but is Elvish Spirit Guide a way to augment the plan? This is the acceleration Turbo Depths uses, which is amazing in that deck (coming from experience.)

    -4 BoP
    -1 Buried Alive

    +4 Lotus Petal
    +1 Open

    I feel like I could cut a discard spell (going down to 4) and try and get something like Carrion Feeder in here. I wish Nimble Mongoose would be more reliable, just because a 3/3 shroud for G would be way ahead of the curve. Maybe 2 copies?
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  10. #30
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    This looks interesting! I just wanted to add a link to this decklist that ChristoferV has been experimenting with, it's a fair shell around Fauna Shaman and Vengevine. It's built more for fun than to be super competitive at this point, as I think ChristoferV put it, but since you discussed such an approach recently I thought why not link it.

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1062699

    I started messing with a list myself but nothing reasonable came out of it yet. I think Prized Amalgam seems pretty good, and you get Brainstorms too if you go for a BUG version, so I'll have a look at that. I think if going for Dark Rituals, Hymn is a pretty useful maindeck inclusion. T1 Dark Ritual into Thoughtseize and Hymn is a pretty good way to buy time vs both combo and control decks. The combo in this version, any Vengevine + Buried Alive/Intuition deck, is less aggressive it seems than a Phoenix version, so you probably need to build it a bit more controlling. Then Hymn seem like they could work. Disrupt the opponent, then smash in with your grindy creatures.

    If going for a control version, it might make sense to use Intuition instead, and this would also open up for 1 of Loam + 1 Wasteland. I guess this is going too far at this point though, it's probably better to start with an aggressive version.
    Thanks for the link and comments! I do agree on Hymn but I feel it's a sideboard strategy (as I'm moving away from Dark Ritual.) I'm looking to blast g1, similar to dredge or any other fast aggressive deck, and then drop some of the graveyard reliance for additional control. I agree that an aggressive version is the way to go, simply because a control version would be a little difficult to muster. Aggro Loam is probably the best mid-range/controlling semi-dredge deck. Out of simple blue dual land availability I'm staying away from blue. I can splash white or red (I have Scrublands and Taigas/Groves) but I'm not sure I want to do that yet. Thanks again!
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  11. #31
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Here's a 2 minute list based on Hanni's suggestion, it makes some sense to use the 1 cmc enablers actually.

    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    2 Lotleth Troll
    4 Vengevine
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Hollow One
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Swords to plowshares
    18 lands
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  12. #32
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I tried IntuVine before. It was underwhelming from a threat perspective, but UGx is always playable because of the other cards it allows us to play.
    I found in this case that I wanted a Bant-ish list instead, because that's more streamlined and focused.
    Intuition is good but slow, and just casting Jace instead of tooling around with Vengevines felt stronger.

    Buried Vines I tried as well. It worked sort of with Gravecrawlers and Lotleth Trolls next to just good cards, but I never got it to tournament level.
    I added a few mana dudes to accellerate into Buried Alive, and the Crawlers made sure the 2nd Buried Alive stayed relevant.
    Some removal and some discard round things up, and the deck looked okay. It did, however, struggle big time against Combo and Miracles.

  13. #33
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Here's a 2 minute list based on Hanni's suggestion, it makes some sense to use the 1 cmc enablers actually.

    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    2 Lotleth Troll
    4 Vengevine
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Hollow One
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Swords to plowshares
    18 lands
    Very cool. I have everything but the Tireless Tribes and the Prized Amalgams, both easy to find. I like StP, it's better removal, and I can make that mana base happen easily.

    4x Verdant Catacombs
    2x Marsh Flats
    2x Windswepth Heath
    1x Bayou
    2x Scrubland
    1x Blooming Marsh
    1x Concealed Courtyard
    2x Swamp
    1x Forest
    1x Plains
    1x OPEN (Urborg, Savannah, Mishra's Factory, Karakas, Treetop Village)


    Sideboard has plenty of options as well, with white giving a big boost with Canonist, Disenchant, Zealous Persectution, maybe even Lingering Souls.
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  14. #34
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Wow Mr. Safety this was quite the necro (ironically).
    I haven't been fooling around with this at all in quite some time, and i appreciate all the discussion i'll have to read through this all later.

    There are so many different ways to explore this style of deck, going all in, going very conservative, different colours, and now with DRS gone it's probably worth revisiting. Terminus is still the biggest issue for any deck like this.

  15. #35
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I started working on a preliminary list as a starting point, but space is really tight (as it always is when building new decks).

    As I mentioned before, I believe the core to be Tireless Tribe, Putrid Imp, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine, and Hollow One.

    Beyond that, I like the idea of building upon the synergy of the deck by increasing the discard outlets, creatures we want to discard (or don't mind discarding), and of course, more free creatures.

    The strength of the deck is in its ability to flood the board with creatures quickly, which should certainly be the primary focus. To that end, I like the complement of Bloodghast, which is basically free when discarded. Between Bloodghast, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine, and Hollow One, that's 16 free creatures.

    Of course, we need more discard outlets to increase consistency. Since I am unaware of any other 1cc creatures with the ability to discard multiple cards without tapping, we have to move up to a 2cc creature. Lotleth Troll is clearly the best choice here. Permanent +1/+1 counters, trample, and regenerate put it league's ahead of every other 2cc option. The fact that it's a zombie is great too, which is relevant for Gravecrawler. The other option would Zombie Infestation, but I dislike the fact that you have to discard 4 cards to make Hollow One's free.

    Despite not being free, Gravecrawler is still a great addition here, IMO. It doesn't mind being discarded and it's a great way to trigger Vengevines. A 2/1 body for one mana is solid, and helps contribute to flooding the board and applying pressure.

    I like the idea of running Carrion Feeder for it's ability to protect the board of exile effects (Swords to Plowshares/Council's Judgment) and Terminus, as well as being able to sacrifice in response to life gain triggers from Batterskull (or even Griselbrand). Improving the Miracles and D&T matchups seems pretty worth it, to me. They also increase the zombie count for Gravecrawler, and improve the ability to retrigger Vengevines with Gravecrawler's midgame, so I'm pretty sure they're worth running. I'm thinking 2 copies is probably the correct amount, but I'm not sure.

    The problem is that the above package takes up almost the entire deck. If I run 20 lands, or 16 lands and 4 Loutus Petals, that leaves me with 6 remaining slots for Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize, but that's it. I really wanted to run some removal too, but I don't really have any space.

    At any rate, here's my rough draft list as a starting point:

    B/g/w Fiendish Nature

    Lands (16)
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Marsh Flats
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Polluted Delta
    3 Bayou
    3 Scrubland
    1 Swamp
    1 Undiscovered Paradise

    Creatures (34)
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Lotleth Troll
    2 Carrion Feeder
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One

    Spells (10)
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Thoughtseize
    4 Lotus Petal

    16 lands may be too few for Bloodghast, I'm not really sure. I like the speed that Lotus Petal offers, but maybe the deck needs to cut them for more lands to properly support Bloodghast... I don't know.

    Some interesting other cards I could see being included...

    Wasteland
    Mutavault
    Prized Amalgam
    Memnite
    Big Game Hunter
    Vengeful Pharaoh
    Collective Brutality
    Swords to Plowshares
    Abrupt Decay
    Zombie Infestation
    Bridge from Below
    Entomb
    Buried Alive

    Maybe some of those could be decent sideboard options. Maybe the main deck Thoughtseize should be Collective Brutality? Again, I don't know.

    EDIT: Maybe I should splash blue and run Prized Amalgam instead of Bloodghast? Like, cut the Undiscovered Paradise and a Scrubland and a Bayou for two Underground Seas and the 2nd Swamp?

    EDIT2: Maybe the cut should be Carrion Feeder and Thoughtseize for Prized Amalgam? Manabase would be 8 fetches, two of each dual, 1 Swamp, 1 Undiscovered Paradise? Actually, I quite like that idea... it puts the deck up to 20 free creatures.

    B/g/w/u Fiendish Nature

    Lands (16)
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Marsh Flats
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Bayou
    2 Scrubland
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Swamp
    1 Undiscovered Paradise

    Creatures (36)
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Lotleth Troll
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One

    Spells (8)
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Lotus Petal
    Sligh
    Mentor Deathblade
    The Mind Harvester
    Wb Tokens
    4c Nobleblade

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  16. #36
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Awesome feedback! Just a few questions to help me wrap my head around this, if you don't mind:

    1) Do we need 12 permanent discard outlets (like Putrid Imp)? Could we operate on 10 with them being 4 Imp/4 Troll/2 Brutality, or 4 Imp/4 Tribe/2x Troll and/or Brutality?
    2) Are gravecrawlers worth the slots? As a threat it's fairly anemic, it's strength is being able to be played out of the graveyard. I don't have experience with the old zombie-engine based Vengevine deck, this is all new to me.
    3) I was thinking that 18 lands and 4 Petals should be enough mana, but that brings up Mutavault. How many do you think could be supported? (Note: dependant on Gravecrawler inclusion)
    4) Bad matchups seem to be: Storm, Miracles, Lands, Depths. They all have faster combos or ways to completely neuter the plan, or in the case of Lands/Depths both (Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog, followed by a 20/20.)
    5) Your lists are definitely 'all-in', so I'm assuming its your opinion that this is needed to be competitive?
    6) What would you do to make it less 'all-in' so removal could be added? I'm worried that 4 slots are necessary in some mix (StP, Fatal Push, Decay, Brutality.) Banking on discard to get there may be correct, but it makes me uneasy (similar to your statement.)
    7) Could I replace undiscovered paradise with Dakmor Salvage?
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  17. #37
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    The problem with relying on Collective Brutality as a discard outlet is that it's only going to let you discard two cards at most, so it cannot make Hollow One's cost 0, which is a big deal.

    I think the consistency provided by running Imp/Tribe/Troll is pretty important, particularly without cantrips, although I would trim from Lotleth Troll before trimming from the other two. The difference between 1cc and 2cc on the discard outlet is huge.

    Gravecrawler isn't the greatest, but it does a lot of what you want. The deck does need enough density of 1cc creatures to trigger Vengevine, and Gravecrawler being a good creature to discard improves synergy with Hollow One. As a recursive creature, it has synergy with Prized Amalgam. One mana for a 2/1 isn't as good as zero mana for 4/4's, 4/3's, 3/3's, and 2/1's, but it's not horrible either. Ultimately, I think it does enough to be worth it, but I could be wrong.

    I have no idea what the bad matchups are yet, but I'm sure some of them could be addressed with the sideboard.

    The list is all-in to improve consistency. It's a starting point. It's possible that maybe the deck could trim back on it, although as I've said, the strength of this deck is the ability to flood the board on turns 1 or 2... without that, this deck is worse than other options (like Pheonix). The benefit here is that unlike Dredge, going all-in doesn't completely fold to graveyard hate postboard, since we can hardcast everything if we have to.

    I'm not even sure if maindeck removal is necessary. This is more like a combo deck than a fair aggro deck, so it shouldn't be necessary to kill opposing creatures in most fair matchups. Having removal in the board for Marit Lage, possibly even Griselbrand and Emrakul, would probably be a good idea though. Personally, I'd rather have a playset of Thoughtseize maindeck before dipping into removal, although Collective Brutality is very tempting.

    I definitely would want answers to Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace in the board, so Assassin's Trophy sounds pretty good for that.

    Dakmor Salvage sounds cool with Mox Diamond, but there's definitely not enough lands in the lists I proposed for Diamond. Salvage doesn't do what Undiscovered Paradise does for Bloodghast though, so I don't think it's a replacement. The fact that Paradise makes mana of any color is really nice in the 4c list too... I actually wouldn't mind finding room for more copies.
    Last edited by Hanni; 02-12-2019 at 04:49 PM.
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  18. #38
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    NOTE: I understand this may require a second thread, but I want to post musings here to point out some interesting synergies that are being missed by being straight BG

    I think it may be more interested to use BUG; mostly because:
    * Shardless agent allows you to guarantee Vengevine recursion (or nearly guarantee, depending on build;) If building around this synergy it may be hyper-reliable in the mid-game. It's noteworthy that the Buried Alive and Vengevine can't be hit by shardless, which seems like a plus.

    * Cavern Harpy (and if there are any other cards like it) can cast by themselves multiple times. Some of the supporting cards for Harpy in Aluren also allow you to bounce dudes back. This self-bounce seems like a natural way to get a 2-4 mana trigger for Vine

    * Combining with the (now deprecated?) BUG Aluren deck may allow a two-sided win con. Insta-gib via fast aluren combo, or secondary win con of Mid-range aggro.


    I know this isn't quite related to what you're doing; but the synergies of Shardless and Cavern Harpy seem too neat not to point out. It also addresses most issues brought up about bad MUs: Aluren combo can go off T3 easily if not interacted with; meaning you can race combo and out-value Miracles/Fair decks. This also opens up running FoW, which obviously helps slow opposing combo; making those bad MUs have that much more potential.

    If I come up with a list that seems reasonable maybe I'll start a thread and then cross reference it here for anyone interested.

    EDIT: It could also be considered as a sideboard plan to swap between a graveyard combo vs aluren combo
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  19. #39
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    if the plan is all in on game ones, but still being functional after board unlike dredge, i wonder if exploring Tolarian Winds might be a different deck/strategy. You'd probably have to go with street wraiths and maybe even memnites to support vengevines, but it would really turn on hollow ones. My fear with going with an all in strategy is at what point is it just a worse all in deck than Oops or belcher or dredge, but the board and playing fair doesn't really get those post board games back because you have too many essential pieces. Not sure.
    Last edited by ReAnimator; 02-12-2019 at 04:33 PM.

  20. #40
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    NOTE: I understand this may require a second thread, but I want to post musings here to point out some interesting synergies that are being missed by being straight BG

    I think it may be more interested to use BUG; mostly because:
    * Shardless agent allows you to guarantee Vengevine recursion (or nearly guarantee, depending on build;) If building around this synergy it may be hyper-reliable in the mid-game. It's noteworthy that the Buried Alive and Vengevine can't be hit by shardless, which seems like a plus.

    * Cavern Harpy (and if there are any other cards like it) can cast by themselves multiple times. Some of the supporting cards for Harpy in Aluren also allow you to bounce dudes back. This self-bounce seems like a natural way to get a 2-4 mana trigger for Vine

    * Combining with the (now deprecated?) BUG Aluren deck may allow a two-sided win con. Insta-gib via fast aluren combo, or secondary win con of Mid-range aggro.


    I know this isn't quite related to what you're doing; but the synergies of Shardless and Cavern Harpy seem too neat not to point out. It also addresses most issues brought up about bad MUs: Aluren combo can go off T3 easily if not interacted with; meaning you can race combo and out-value Miracles/Fair decks. This also opens up running FoW, which obviously helps slow opposing combo; making those bad MUs have that much more potential.

    If I come up with a list that seems reasonable maybe I'll start a thread and then cross reference it here for anyone interested.

    EDIT: It could also be considered as a sideboard plan to swap between a graveyard combo vs aluren combo
    Shardless Agent is the best argument for a blue splash so far, easily. Nice catch, it really rewards a high-creature count. The usual blue stuff would have to be left out (Brainstorm, Ponder, Daze) but Careful Study might make the cut. EDIT: Aluren is way outside of my comfort zone, sorry I can't contribute.

    I'm also looking at Flamewake Phoenix for the red splash. Looting, PFire, and Phoenix make a decent package for the red splash. It might not be good enough but the efficiency is pretty huge. I think if I avoid the zombie engine it could be squeezed in.

    4x Pimp
    4x Vine
    4x Rootwalla
    4x Bghast
    4x Hollow
    3x Lotleth Troll
    4x Phoenix
    1x Vengeful Pharaoh
    4x Looting
    4x Pfire
    4x Thoughtseize
    2x Collective Brutality
    18x Lands, 3 of them Groves
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