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Thread: GB Vengevine

  1. #141
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I did some testing, and admittedly I don't have the lands to make a perfect jund-colored mana-base in legacy. However, I think the inclusion of Grove of the Burnwillows in a base-black deck is going to cause trouble regardless. Neither green or red are the primary colors of the deck. The red mana is the most useful for Looting, but it's still not the best option. So I'm not wasting too much time on this version and instead going straight to the white splash, which I think brings a lot to the table. I think the mana is way better because it doesn't rely on splash-color lands as a part of it's disruption.

    4x Putrid Imp
    4x Tireless Tribe
    4x Basking Rootwalla
    4x Bloodghast
    4x Vengevine
    4x Hollow One
    2x Lotleth Troll

    3x Thoughtseize
    3x Cabal Therapy
    4x Swords to Plowshares
    2x Collective Brutality
    3x Lingering Souls
    1x Liliana, the Last Hope

    4x Verdant Catacombs
    2x Marsh Flats
    2x Windswept Heath
    2x Scrubland
    1x Bayou
    1x Blooming Marsh
    1x Concealed Courtyard
    2x Swamp
    1x Forest
    1x Plains
    1x Utility Land (most likely Karakas)

    Sideboard
    2x Sylvan Library
    1x Painful Truths
    1x Vindicate
    2x Abrupt Decay
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Ethersworn Canonist
    2x Zealous Persecution
    1x Bitterblossom
    2x Hymn to Tourach


    It has 12 discard outlets, 8 of them setting up explosive t1 plays. I will happily discard Lingering Souls to Tireless Tribe to make free Hollow Ones. Liliana has proven to be incredible in the mid-late game, just pure gas, and is great against some of the grindier decks.

    DISCLAIMER: this is likely the grindiest version yet, it's definitely trying to be a Rock deck with extended graveyard synergy. It's more aggressive than traditional Rock/Deadguy but plays a very similar game plan with discard/removal/efficient threats. I'm excited to try this out. I'm sad I couldn't cram in Street Wraiths, but I think the plan of Collective Brutality and Liliana will be more powerful if slowing the deck down slightly. Tribe being a fat-ass wall against some decks will be fantastic.
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  2. #142
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Hogaak has me brewing for this deck again. Without Hogaak there were some very explosive starts, sometimes racing even the combo decks, but with Hogaak I think it might actually be feasible to put lethal on board t1-3. I can't help but want to abuse the explosive Dark Ritual/Buried Alive combo for Bloodghasts/Vengevines/Hogaak/GGT/Stinkweed Imp. I like Mind Rake here as well because its another discard outlet that also disrupts. Dark Ritual means it *could* be fast enough. Golgari Grave Troll is there to enable Hogaak's further down the line. Hollow One doesn't cast Hogaak so I think Prized Amalgam is the correct addition.

    Starting list:

    4x Putrid Imp
    4x Basking Rootwalla
    4x Bloodghast
    4x Vengevine
    4x Lotleth Troll
    4x Prized Amalgam
    4x Street Wraith
    3x Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    1x Golgari Grave-Troll
    4x Cabal Therapy
    2x Mind Rake
    4x Dark Ritual
    4x Buried Alive
    4x Verdant Catacombs
    2x Polluted Delta
    2x Windswept Heath
    2x Bayou
    2x Swamp
    1x Forest
    1x Dakmore Salvage


    T1 combos: Dark Ritual + Buried Alive, Dark Ritual + Mind Rake, Putrid Imp + shenanigans. Not going to even attempt a sideboard just yet. I might need more dredgers to feed Hogaak, but this is a starting point.
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  3. #143
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I've been following the new Bridgevine decks in modern, and they are looking possibly ban worthy powerful. They can easily win on turn 3 and sometimes turn 2.
    They have a legit plan A and plan B, they are resilient, not completely shut down by graveyard hate (though it can be rough for sure).

    I have to think just starting with that backbone and adding 4 cabal therapy and some dual lands probably is a good place to start. Maybe putting in rituals too or petals. I don't think Buried alive is necessary especially with Altar of Dementia in the mix.

    The lists are still in their infancy but have already put up absurd results.
    I'd imagine Neonate is probably worse than PImp.
    Not sure what you would cut for Therapies exactly.

    Here is a sample modern list that 5-0'd:

    Creature (30)

    4 Carrion Feeder
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Insolent Neonate
    4 Stitcher's Supplier
    4 Bloodghast
    2 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    Sorcery (4)">Sorcery (4)
    4 Faithless Looting

    Artifact (4)">Artifact (4)
    4 Altar of Dementia

    Enchantment (4)">Enchantment (4)
    4 Bridge from Below

    Land (18)">Land (18)
    3 Blackcleave Cliffs
    2 Blood Crypt
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Marsh Flats
    2 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Swamp
    4 Verdant Catacombs


  4. #144
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    I've been following the new Bridgevine decks in modern, and they are looking possibly ban worthy powerful. They can easily win on turn 3 and sometimes turn 2.
    They have a legit plan A and plan B, they are resilient, not completely shut down by graveyard hate (though it can be rough for sure).

    I have to think just starting with that backbone and adding 4 cabal therapy and some dual lands probably is a good place to start. Maybe putting in rituals too or petals. I don't think Buried alive is necessary especially with Altar of Dementia in the mix.

    The lists are still in their infancy but have already put up absurd results.
    I'd imagine Neonate is probably worse than PImp.
    Not sure what you would cut for Therapies exactly.

    Here is a sample modern list that 5-0'd:

    Creature (30)

    4 Carrion Feeder
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Insolent Neonate
    4 Stitcher's Supplier
    4 Bloodghast
    2 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    Sorcery (4)">Sorcery (4)
    4 Faithless Looting

    Artifact (4)">Artifact (4)
    4 Altar of Dementia

    Enchantment (4)">Enchantment (4)
    4 Bridge from Below

    Land (18)">Land (18)
    3 Blackcleave Cliffs
    2 Blood Crypt
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Marsh Flats
    2 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Swamp
    4 Verdant Catacombs

    Good catch! I think it would be -4 Neonate, +4 Pimp, -4 Carrion Feeder, +4 Cabal Therapy. Gravecrawler gets a little worse without Carrion Feeder, but I don't think it's a deal-breaker. I don't know if the red splash is worth it for Faithless Looting, Pimp does a lot of heavy lifting. I'm not sure Altar of Dementia is worth it in the Legacy version, I almost think it would be better to have some sort of Dread Return package. We get to upgrade Stinkweed Imps to GGT's as well, which is a decent DR target.

    I'd still like to see what Mind Rake could do for the deck. I also think 1-2 Vengeful Pharaoh could be decent, at least in the sideboard. I'll keep tabs on the modern deck and see where it goes.
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  5. #145
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Mr. Safety
    I think you are vastly underestimating the power here. This can mill someone out turn 2!

    Watch some of it in action, it's pretty absurd.
    https://youtu.be/ws8EECCw7DQ

    You can't cut alter, or feeder otherwise your bridges do not work well enough.

    With a couple of bridges and a hogaak and alter you can go infinite and mill someone out.
    Just mill your self till you hit a hogaak and 2 bridges then you can keep casting hogaak over and over generating extra zombies once you hit another bridge it starts going larger.

  6. #146
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Wow just watched some videos, this deck is the real deal. It's incredible how well these cards synergize with each other.

    Having access to dread return and cabal therapy is pretty big here, as it's relatively important to interact with opponents compared to modern.

    Will think of some options as well, I'm sure there's some other cards being overlooked that fit well within this strategy.

    FYI, there's a game where he goes turn 1 stitcher. Turn 2 he ends up with 15 power on the board and doesn't even have an altar in play.
    -rob

  7. #147
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    Mr. Safety
    I think you are vastly underestimating the power here. This can mill someone out turn 2!

    Watch some of it in action, it's pretty absurd.
    https://youtu.be/ws8EECCw7DQ

    You can't cut alter, or feeder otherwise your bridges do not work well enough.

    With a couple of bridges and a hogaak and alter you can go infinite and mill someone out.
    Just mill your self till you hit a hogaak and 2 bridges then you can keep casting hogaak over and over generating extra zombies once you hit another bridge it starts going larger.
    I was definitely underestimating, I'll watch some coverage. This seems absurd!
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    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  8. #148
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    So i'm wondering if Red is worth it in here, or if just being straight GB is better.

    Shenanigans and Faithless looting are the best red has to offer, neonate is meh, Anger is a consideration but without entomb probably not great. Putrid imp while less strong than looting has a ton of other synergies to make up for it. You need green for enchantment hate anyway, and hard casting VVines while not something that will come up often is still a thing.

    My biggest question is if Rituals are worth it or not? Extra lands are good with Crawler and Bloodghast, but being explosive is valuable too.

    I think i'm going to start with this and go from there, and see if i need the added power of looting is needed or not and if rituals perform at all.


    4 Carrion Feeder
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Stitcher's Supplier
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis


    4 Altar of Dementia
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy


    4 Dark Rituals
    4 Bayou
    4 Swamp
    8 Fetches

    Not sure how fancy you can get with the mana base. I think with Rituals you want to keep it basic. But if you cut them i would want to try out a Phyrexian Tower and maybe a Cabal Pit or 2, just for some main deck interaction.

    Sideboard would probably start like this i would think:
    4 Leyline
    4 Assassin's trophy
    as a base and then other options could be:
    2 Collective Brutality
    3 Thoughtseize / Hymn / Mindrake
    2 ?

    I've got a legacy 1k Coming up in a couple of weeks, probably give this a spin if i can get Hogaak's.

  9. #149
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    So i'm wondering if Red is worth it in here, or if just being straight GB is better.

    Shenanigans and Faithless looting are the best red has to offer, neonate is meh, Anger is a consideration but without entomb probably not great. Putrid imp while less strong than looting has a ton of other synergies to make up for it. You need green for enchantment hate anyway, and hard casting VVines while not something that will come up often is still a thing.

    My biggest question is if Rituals are worth it or not? Extra lands are good with Crawler and Bloodghast, but being explosive is valuable too.

    I think i'm going to start with this and go from there, and see if i need the added power of looting is needed or not and if rituals perform at all.


    4 Carrion Feeder
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Stitcher's Supplier
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis


    4 Altar of Dementia
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy


    4 Dark Rituals
    4 Bayou
    4 Swamp
    8 Fetches

    Not sure how fancy you can get with the mana base. I think with Rituals you want to keep it basic. But if you cut them i would want to try out a Phyrexian Tower and maybe a Cabal Pit or 2, just for some main deck interaction.

    Sideboard would probably start like this i would think:
    4 Leyline
    4 Assassin's trophy
    as a base and then other options could be:
    2 Collective Brutality
    3 Thoughtseize / Hymn / Mindrake
    2 ?

    I've got a legacy 1k Coming up in a couple of weeks, probably give this a spin if i can get Hogaak's.
    I think it's about as streamlined as you can get without splashing red. You're just cutting Looting for Therapies and Neonates for Pimps. I'm going to work towards getting this list together as well. I have much of the deck, but I'm missing Gravecrawlers, Alters, Hogaks, and Bridges.

    I don't think it will pay to become cute with the mana-base. The only utility land you might want is 1-2x Dakmor Salvage. It allows your low land count to still enable Bloodghasts. I think you can cut 1-2x Swamps to fit them in. I also wonder if we can cut the true dredge cards entirely; I think the current modern lists are still using 2x Stinkweed Imp.

    I'm looking forward to your feedback!
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  10. #150
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    My worry with the dredge cards is that without looting we really don't have a way to get maximum effect from them, we can only do it once per turn. My instincts are to just cut them entirely. I worry with Salvage that it a) doesn't dredge for a significant amount, and b) having a ETB Tapped land is going to really hamper the explosive draws. Having Salvage alongside Rituals seems to be at cross purposes in my mind, but it's all theoretical right now, so in practice it might work out better.

    I think i'll try one of each of the lands (salvage, cabal pit, tower) and just gold fish it a bunch of times and see if any of them get in the way or are clunky.

    Good luck buying the singles, they are sky high right now because of modern. I'd try testing before committing.

  11. #151
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Good advice. Dakmor salvage wouldn't be for dredging, just for enabling land drops even if you 'dredge' it with Stitcher. You only have 16 lands, which is pretty low for bloodghast. Having watched the modern deck in action, bloodghast is pretty important for paying the cost for Hogaak.
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  12. #152
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    So i've done some Goldfishing (the best quality of testing, lol) and i think Dark Rituals are very very explosive, and led to some turn ones with 11+ power in play. But i think it leaves us more open to disruption, i'm not worried about being fast, as this should be faster than most non combo things, i'm worried about consistency and how it performs in the face of disruption. So to that end i think Rituals don't really fit for now, unless the meta suddenly warrents explosive speed at the sake of consistency. The one big hit to cutting Ritual is it makes the sideboard Leylines very clunky, but that might be ok.

    I think the first 40 cards are pretty set in stone for now. It's the last 20 (the lands and a flex slot or two) where the tough decisions are.

    16-19 lands seems reasonable.
    There are a lot of options (as discussed before) for utility lands.
    We need a bunch of fetches for Ghast, and a decent amount of targets to fetch.
    I'm going to try a bunch of 1 of's and see which help and which hurt.

    I like the idea of one Undiscovered Paradise that Zombardment sometimes runs, as it helps Ghast be constantly fueled.

    The Dakmor Salvage i worry about ETB Tapped lands, cause we really can't stumble, but it might be fine, i really don't want more than one.

    I like the Cabal Pit as it's a free roll pretty much.

    I also think a one of Phyrexian Tower is pretty reasonable, it can help accelerate, and having an extra sac outlet for suppliers and bridges is pretty great. The colourless is pretty rough as we don't have any things to sink it into, so might not be worth it.

    Cavern of souls is also a possibility but i don't think our 1 casting cost zombies are getting countered very often, and it interferes with the sideboard.

    Urborg is a possibility to slow roll fetches for Ghast, but again all these longer game synergies aren't really that helpful when things are going according to plan, and opens us up to more disruption.

    I'm going to try this, and see how it goes
    4 Bayou
    2 Swamp
    8 Fetches
    1 Undiscovered Paradise
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Cabal Pit
    1 Dakmor Salvage

    2 Flex slots.

    But i fully expect to cut one or two of these, and maybe add another basic or fetch.

    I think for the flex slots i'm going to try out 2 crypt breakers. They have a million synergies, and can help with more grindy games where people try to slow us down. It might not contribute enough when things are going well, but should be pretty good when they aren't. I like it post board too, as it can play around grave hate pretty well. Having more discard outlets is very welcome too.
    Zombie Infestation is another possibility here.

  13. #153

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Im working on a Zombardment list with Hogaak at the moment. From my testings, dakmor salvage and shenanigans are nice, (chalice for 1 really hurts the deck!). Also 1 of undiscovered paradise ia really nice with ghasts.

    My build have 1 of Anger also, sometimes you just dont have altar to mill your opponent, but you can hit right away with the recent made zombies from bridges/feeders, making a 2turn clock or something... Maybe he is a fit here as well.

  14. #154
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    So after some more testing i think Faithless looting is necessary. It pains me to go to a 3 colour list again, but the requirements are really minor.

    With only Putrid Imp, i wasn't hitting enough self discard. Looting smooths things out, and also helps you with the low land count. Cryptbreaker wasn't really good enough for the main.

    Going to 3 colours means all the cute utility lands need to be cut, other than Undiscovered Paradise and possibly the Phyrexian tower.

    I've gone down to 17 lands and cut the 4th Altar and cryptbreakers for the 4 looting.

    I like the 1 of Anger idea, now with mountains, but i don't think there is room, and without entomb i don't think it will be reliable enough.

  15. #155
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss View Post
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  16. #156

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    So after some more testing i think Faithless looting is necessary. It pains me to go to a 3 colour list again, but the requirements are really minor.

    With only Putrid Imp, i wasn't hitting enough self discard. Looting smooths things out, and also helps you with the low land count. Cryptbreaker wasn't really good enough for the main.

    Going to 3 colours means all the cute utility lands need to be cut, other than Undiscovered Paradise and possibly the Phyrexian tower.

    I've gone down to 17 lands and cut the 4th Altar and cryptbreakers for the 4 looting.

    I like the 1 of Anger idea, now with mountains, but i don't think there is room, and without entomb i don't think it will be reliable enough.
    I'm trying something like this, its an adaptation of my bombardment list to play altar instead of it, and no vengevines:

    Main:
    4 Altar of Dementia
    1 Anger
    3 Badlands
    4 Bloodghast
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Carrion Feeder
    4 Entomb
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Gravecrawler
    2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    3 Marsh Flats
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Scrubland
    1 Shenanigans
    4 Stitcher's Supplier
    3 Swamp
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Undiscovered Paradise

    Sideboard:
    2 Engineered Explosives
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Silent Gravestone
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Wear // Tear

    - EE is great in my meta as there is lots of dnt/tribal stuff, and destroys chalices. The MB shenanigans is also for chalice, you can entomb for it (if they are on the play you are screwed btw)
    - Silent Gravestone+Leyline is great against graveyard decks, and also a form of protection from us. Gravestone is also excellent vs arcanist/snapcaster decks.
    - A little removal is necessary for those pesky Marit Lage and other annoying stuff.
    - Anger lets you be very aggressive even without altar, it puts a lot of pression over the opponent.

    I played a similar list earlier this week (just 1 hogaak and 3 bombardments/3 altars instead of 4 altars, and 18 lands, only lost match was due to flooding/mull to 5).

  17. #157
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Player USAZ managed to get a 5-0 in a legacy league with this:

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2019-06-22

    Creature (24)

    4 Bloodghast4 Carrion Feeder4 Gravecrawler4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis4 Insolent Neonate4 Stitcher's Supplier
    Sorcery (10)

    4 Cabal Therapy4 Faithless Looting2 Thoughtseize
    Artifact (4)

    4 Altar of Dementia
    Enchantment (4)

    4 Bridge from Below
    Land (18)

    3 Badlands2 Bayou4 Bloodstained Mire2 Polluted Delta3 Swamp2 Undiscovered Paradise2 Verdant Catacombs
    60 Cards
    Sideboard (15)

    3 Cryptbreaker 2 Goblin Bombardment2 Golgari Charm 4 Hymn to Tourach2 Surgical Extraction 2 Tormod's Crypt

    Looks pretty standard, though I donít know why you wouldnít want putrid imps.

    I went a disappointing 2-3 yesterday. That being said, 2 of my losses were in 3 games, and the deck felt good, I had some run bads and some mulls to oblivion. Iíd for sure run the deck again with some changes.

    Hereís a quick and dirty run down:
    R1 Eldrazi Stompy: He lands a Chalice turn 1 after winning the die roll. I probably would have killed him on turn 2 if I was on the play.
    Game two on the play he doesnít have chalice, and I win on turn 4 ish.
    Game Three he lands a first turn chalice and I had mulled looking for answers (he had leylines as well) so I couldnít really keep a hand without answers. He drops a bunch of eldraziís and runs me over quickly.

    R2 Miracles: We have a back and fourth battle but he has a lot of interaction and once I run out of gas he has a Narset to lock out the lootings in my yard and sticks a mentor to put me away.
    Game 2 he force of wills my first 2 plays but never gets the card advantage back and I run him over.
    Game 3 went long, I dumped a bunch of cards in my graveyard but almost none of them were relevant, just all the cards that donít do anything, except for a Hogaak. I try to attack his hand but he has a surgical a snapcaster and a STP. If I had hit a bridge I would have been fine, but a Hogaak doesnít really do anything against a hand like that. He puts me away after I stall out.

    R3 Esper Stone Blade: I rip apart his hand and Iím able to run him over before he can find his footing.
    Game 2 I donít know what sort of hate he has, but I have lots of discard again, and he canít really stop my creatures.

    R4 Eldrazi Stompy again.
    Game one he wins the die roll which is everything in this match up, he has a double mimic draw and kills me on turn 3.
    Game two I get some stuff going but he has lethal on board and I have to go for it, he has a Faerie Macabre to shut it all down.

    R5 D&T Iím able to run him over and he doesnít have enough interaction to stop it. Having a Jitte Equipped isnít really enough to stop 8/8 tramplers.
    Game 2 I put a VVine and Hogaak in play on turn 2. He still almost stabilizes with a Mirran Crusader and a batterskull. But I rip a timely Assassinís Trophy to stop him before it gets out of control.

    Some notes and observations on the deck.
    Not being able to block with most of your creatures can really hurt.
    Bloodghast was pretty underwhelming all told. Not sure it adds enough, I might trim down on these a bit.
    Putrid Imp was great.
    Assassinís trophy out of the board was the best catch all. It takes care of whatever hate they might have, Be it leyline or Containment priest.
    This deck is pretty hard to play and sequence, I didnít have close to enough reps to play well and that totally hurt me. Iíll need to test and practice a lot before I take it for a spin again.

    @john I like the list you posted, itís a less explosive but more resilient build. Iíll have to try it out. Though I really like vengevines and just bashing people. Entomb is powerful and big draw though.

  18. #158
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I'm trying to put together a coherent list to test with Buried Alive again, mostly because there is another turn 1 payoff card with Rotting Regisaur. I think it would end up having at least 2 Hogaaks and some number of actual dredgers, probably 1 of each Putrid Imp and Golgari-Grave Troll (to play around Surgical Extraction.) I think t1 Buried alive and getting 3 engine pieces rolling could be very good. Regisaur is slower as a discard outlet, but is more powerful than Insolent Neonate. It's a long shot, but Imma try.
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  19. #159
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    The deck wants to actually draw into some cards, which is why I think Faithless and Neonate are pretty key. Being able to draw the Altar in particular is big game; you can't mill it. That said, having more consistent discard outlets (PImp, CTherapy) compared to the Modern version seems quite nice as the Modern version is often stuck with Bridges and Vengevines in hand unable to do anything with them. It's always tricky to pick what to cut though; ideally you at least want 4 Bridges/Hogaaks/Altars as those are the key enablers. Hogaak is also quite nice vs. non-Leyline grave hate, but of course they're a bit rough to land vs. Leyline in particular.

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