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Thread: GB Vengevine

  1. #41
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    NOTE: I understand this may require a second thread, but I want to post musings here to point out some interesting synergies that are being missed by being straight BG

    I think it may be more interested to use BUG; mostly because:
    * Shardless agent allows you to guarantee Vengevine recursion (or nearly guarantee, depending on build;) If building around this synergy it may be hyper-reliable in the mid-game. It's noteworthy that the Buried Alive and Vengevine can't be hit by shardless, which seems like a plus.

    * Cavern Harpy (and if there are any other cards like it) can cast by themselves multiple times. Some of the supporting cards for Harpy in Aluren also allow you to bounce dudes back. This self-bounce seems like a natural way to get a 2-4 mana trigger for Vine

    * Combining with the (now deprecated?) BUG Aluren deck may allow a two-sided win con. Insta-gib via fast aluren combo, or secondary win con of Mid-range aggro.


    I know this isn't quite related to what you're doing; but the synergies of Shardless and Cavern Harpy seem too neat not to point out. It also addresses most issues brought up about bad MUs: Aluren combo can go off T3 easily if not interacted with; meaning you can race combo and out-value Miracles/Fair decks. This also opens up running FoW, which obviously helps slow opposing combo; making those bad MUs have that much more potential.

    If I come up with a list that seems reasonable maybe I'll start a thread and then cross reference it here for anyone interested.

    EDIT: It could also be considered as a sideboard plan to swap between a graveyard combo vs aluren combo
    Shardless Agent seems pretty good at playing the value plan, although the only matchup where you would need more value would be Miracles... the recursion engines in this deck would make Grixis Control a good matchup already without needing Shardless Agent.

    Cavern Harpy is cool, but way too slow. Paying UUBB to recur Vengevines doesn't really make any sense. The point is to cast 0 mana Basking Rootwalla's and Hollow One's to trigger them, or two 1cc creatures at worst.

    I see where you are trying to go with this, by essentially trying to hybridize it with BUG Aluren, but they are two very different decks. This deck can goldfish on turn 2 already, so it doesn't need to add Aluren for a combo kill... the deck is already an aggro/combo deck.

    Maybe transforming into Aluren postboard would be a good idea instead of trying to fight against graveyard hate, but I'm not sure there's enough space in the sideboard to do that.
    Last edited by Hanni; 02-12-2019 at 03:52 PM.
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  2. #42
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    if the plan is all in on game ones, but still being functional after board unlike dredge, i wonder if exploring [card]Tolarian Winds[/cards] might be a different deck/strategy. You'd probably have to go with street wraiths and maybe even memnites to support vengevines, but it would really turn on hollow ones. My fear with going with an all in strategy is at what point is it just a worse all in deck than Oops or belcher or dredge, but the board and playing fair doesn't really get those post board games back because you have too many essential pieces. Not sure.
    The all-in plan isn't really comparable to something like Oops or Belcher, though. Getting a turn 1 Putrid Imp countered doesn't fizzle the deck like Force of Will does to Belcher. Once a discard outlet resolves, the only thing fizzling the deck is graveyard hate or Terminus. Even if the opponent keeps discard outlets from resolving, the deck can still cast most of its creatures and play a generic beatdown game. The deck could even run Cavern of Souls if the meta was that heavy on countermagic.

    This deck is more like a graveyard-based affinity deck than something like Belcher or Oops. This deck isn't a glass cannon. Dredge is the all-in version, which is more broken in game one, but folds harder to graveyard hate postboard.

    This deck is all-in on aggro, but it can certainly survive against graveyard hate postboard. Surgical Extraction is the most commonly played hate, which isn't even that powerful against us. If our turn 1 involves playing a Tireless Tribe, discarding a Vengevine, a Prized Amalgam, a Bloodghast, and putting a Hollow One into play... Surgical on Vengevine is only a speed bump. We still have a Tireless Tribe and Hollow One in play, and next turn we get a Bloodghast and Prized Amalgam... and that's not counting whatever we can do with two mana. All I'm trying to say is, this deck doesn't fold to Surgical, and can certainly have answers to deal with other forms of hate if needed.

    Hardcasting Bloodghast's, Amalgam's, and Vengevine's isn't the greatest thing to be doing, but there will certainly be games where this plan will still get the job done. Plus the deck has two solid non-graveyard dependent threats with Lotleth Troll and Hollow One.

    I'm not saying that this deck is the next big thing, tier 1, blah blah blah, I'm simply saying that I think this deck has legs. It does some things worse than other similar options, but it also does some things better. If nothing else, this seems like an absolutely fun concept to brew with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  3. #43
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I'm not saying that this deck is the next big thing, tier 1, blah blah blah, I'm simply saying that I think this deck has legs. It does some things worse than other similar options, but it also does some things better. If nothing else, this seems like an absolutely fun concept to brew with.
    +1

    I completely agree. The allure of cool cards...
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  4. #44
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I really like Tireless Tribe for speeding up the explosive Hollow One starts.

    With the 8 1cc discard outlets instead of the Buried Alive plan (less consistent), I agree mana dorks aren't needed. That was a remnant from my old build that was closer to a fair deck (without the explosiveness of Hollow One). Maybe Elvish Spirit Guide or Chancellor of the Tangle, otherwise nothing.

    I'm starting testing with this:


    //Creatures: 33
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    2 Gravecrawler
    3 Lotleth Troll
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One

    //Spells: 9
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Cabal Therapy
    3 Abrupt Decay

    //Lands: 18
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Marsh Flats
    3 Windswept Heath
    3 Bayou
    1 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    1 Forest
    1 Swamp
    1 Undiscovered Paradise

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Faerie Macabre
    3 Silent Gravestone
    3 Big Game Hunter
    3 Carrion Feeder
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Maelstrom Pulse


    -11 discard outlets, 8 active on turn 1 (+Therapies on yourself)
    -18 creatures that want to be discarded
    -11 fat threats
    -20 free critters


    Sideboard is a work in progress.

    Faerie Macabre - grave hate that also enables Hollow One, pitches to Troll, and can be hardcast

    Big Game Hunter - madness creature that kills Emrakul / Griselbrand / etc off Show and Tell or instant-speed discard outlet

    Carrion Feeder - vs white decks. Protects your team from Terminus and StP, hoses Jitte counters and Batterskull lifegain, alternate threat that profits when other things die and combos with the weaker recursive dorks to grow

    Silent Gravestone - Protect you from Surgical. This build is now too invested in the grave plan to SB into a fair deck, so protection is a thing.


    I put Gravecrawlers to have more fodder and more 1ccs to trigger Vengevine, but the zombie count is low and another 2/1 that can't block is pretty bad. It maybe just be better to have something else in that slot like:
    - 1cc utility: Carrion Feeder / Slitherhead / Mother of Runes / Sylvan Safekeeper / Fume Spitter / Veteran Explorer
    - Card advantage: Asylum Visitor / Stinkweed Imp / Squee, Goblin Nabob / Sylvan Library / Land Tax (lol discard fodder but slow)
    - Mana accel: Chancellor of the Tangle (adds mana, then can be discarded for value)
    - Protection: Chancellor of the Annex (protects you, then can be discarded for value)
    - Spells: Swords to Plowshares, Lotus Petal

    I really want to play this deck just to troll people with Big Game Hunter.
    Last edited by FTW; 02-12-2019 at 08:58 PM.

  5. #45
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I really like Tireless Tribe for speeding up the explosive Hollow One starts.

    With the 8 1cc discard outlets instead of the Buried Alive plan (less consistent), I agree mana dorks aren't needed. That was a remnant from my old build that was closer to a fair deck (without the explosiveness of Hollow One). Maybe Elvish Spirit Guide or Chancellor of the Tangle, otherwise nothing.

    I'm starting testing with this:


    //Creatures: 33
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    2 Gravecrawler
    3 Lotleth Troll
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One

    //Spells: 9
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Cabal Therapy
    3 Abrupt Decay

    //Lands: 18
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Marsh Flats
    3 Windswept Heath
    3 Bayou
    1 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    1 Forest
    1 Swamp
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Faerie Macabre
    3 Silent Gravestone
    3 Big Game Hunter
    3 Carrion Feeder
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Maelstrom Pulse


    -11 discard outlets, 8 active on turn 1 (+Therapies on yourself)
    -18 creatures that want to be discarded
    -11 fat threats
    -20 free critters


    Sideboard is a work in progress.

    Faerie Macabre - grave hate that also enables Hollow One, pitches to Troll, and can be hardcast

    Big Game Hunter - madness creature that kills Emrakul / Griselbrand / etc off Show and Tell or instant-speed discard outlet

    Carrion Feeder - vs white decks. Protects your team from Terminus and StP, hoses Jitte counters and Batterskull lifegain, alternate threat that profits when other things die and combos with the weaker recursive dorks to grow

    Silent Gravestone - Protect you from Surgical. This build is now too invested in the grave plan to SB into a fair deck, so protection is a thing.


    I put Gravecrawlers to have more fodder and more 1ccs to trigger Vengevine, but the zombie count is low and another 2/1 that can't block is pretty bad. It maybe just be better to have something else in that slot like:
    - 1cc utility: Carrion Feeder / Slitherhead / Mother of Runes / Sylvan Safekeeper / Fume Spitter / Veteran Explorer
    - Card advantage: Asylum Visitor / Stinkweed Imp / Squee, Goblin Nabob / Sylvan Library / Land Tax (lol discard fodder but slow)
    - Mana accel: Chancellor of the Tangle (adds mana, then can be discarded for value)
    - Protection: Chancellor of the Annex (protects you, then can be discarded for value)
    - Spells: Swords to Plowshares, Lotus Petal

    I really want to play this deck just to troll people with Big Game Hunter.
    I think if you end up playing with either of the Chancellors than some sort of Reanimate variant could be very good. Discarding for value is ok, but I think will water the deck down. Even something like Dread Return or Exhume could be very good if that's the route you take.
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  6. #46
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    After looking at the mana costs of my 4c list, I retweaked the manabase a bit.

    Lands (16)
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Marsh Flats
    2 Bayou
    1 Scrubland
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Savannah
    1 Swamp
    2 Undiscovered Paradise

    That changes to color source balance to 15 black, 13 green, 12 white, 11 blue.

    Of course, the actual color sources go up once Lotus Petal is factored in, too.

    I definitely think the 2nd Undiscovered Paradise is where I want to be at in the 4c list. It not only improves the manabase by providing mana of any color, it also makes Bloodghast significantly better. I don't think I want more than 2 though; they are pretty bad in multiples.
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  7. #47
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I'm not saying that this deck is the next big thing, tier 1, blah blah blah, I'm simply saying that I think this deck has legs. It does some things worse than other similar options, but it also does some things better. If nothing else, this seems like an absolutely fun concept to brew with.
    Agreed all around. Yeah totally fun space to brew in, like the OP says i've had versions of something like this off and on for almost a decade now :)

    The real "problem" is there are just soooo many directions to go in, and infinite cards to test.


    Also with your 4 colour list it might be worth exploring a 5 colour mana base. The damage it inflicts on you will probably be irrelevant in most matches and it would prevent a lot of bottle necks in the face of wasteland. The downside is the amount of triggers you get for bloodghast, but it might be worth considering.

  8. #48
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    Agreed all around. Yeah totally fun space to brew in, like the OP says i've had versions of something like this off and on for almost a decade now :)

    The real "problem" is there are just soooo many directions to go in, and infinite cards to test.


    Also with your 4 colour list it might be worth exploring a 5 colour mana base. The damage it inflicts on you will probably be irrelevant in most matches and it would prevent a lot of bottle necks in the face of wasteland. The downside is the amount of triggers you get for bloodghast, but it might be worth considering.
    I'm not sure it's necessary to do that, though. The thing with the 4c list is that I'm rarely interested in hardcasting Prized Amalgam's, so the blue splash is as tiny as it gets, and the white splash is literally for 4 cards. I'm rarely hardcasting Rootwalla's, and pumping them is of minor relevance... Vengevine's are almost never getting hardcasted, and so the green splash is mainly just for 4 cards too.

    Between Undiscovered Paradise and Lotus Petal providing mana of any color already, it seems fine sticking to the fetch/dual configuration. If I were to experience mana issues in testing, I would reconsider, but I don't believe that will be the case.

    With that said, if I decided to try out Faithless Looting or Flamewake Phoenix, I would certainly do a rainbow manabase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  9. #49

    Re: GB Vengevine

    I downloaded modo and realized all the cards I need for this are extremely cheap except the fetches. Work in progress definitely, but I'm thinking something like this. Was tempted to try and find room for reanimate but don't want to be too committed to the gy. Would rather be able to side out buried/venge for natural order or something.


    3 assault formation
    3 glimpse of nature
    4 cabal therapy
    4 buried alive

    4 tireless tribe
    4 ornithopter
    4 phyrexian walker
    4 vengevine
    1 gaddock teeg
    1 lotleth troll
    1 doran, the explorer
    1 eternal witness
    1 greenbelt rampager
    1 sylvan safekeeper
    2 green sun's zenith

    4 dark ritual
    2 culling the weak
    4 bayou
    4 marsh flats
    4 verdant catacombs
    2 scrubland
    2 swamp
    2 gaea's cradle
    1 forest
    1 dryad arbor

    SB:
    4 natural order or pattern of rebirth
    2 protean hulk
    2 dark confidant
    1 assault formation
    3 thoughtseize
    3 abrupt decay
    Last edited by kinda; 02-13-2019 at 12:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  10. #50
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    I downloaded modo and realized all the cards I need for this are extremely cheap except the fetches. Work in progress definitely, but I'm thinking something like this. Was tempted to try and find room for reanimate but don't want to be too committed to the gy. Would rather be able to side out buried/venge for natural order or something.


    3 assault formation
    3 glimpse of nature
    4 cabal therapy
    4 buried alive

    4 tireless tribe
    4 ornithopter
    4 phyrexian walker
    4 vengevine
    2 dark confidant
    1 gaddock teeg
    1 lotleth troll
    1 doran, the explorer
    3 green sun's zenith

    4 dark ritual
    2 culling the weak
    4 bayou
    4 marsh flats
    4 verdant catacombs
    2 scrubland
    2 swamp
    2 gaea's cradle
    1 forest
    1 dryad arbor

    SB:
    4 natural order
    2 protean hulk
    1 fauna shaman
    1 sylvan safekeeper
    1 assault formation
    3 thoughtseize
    3 abrupt decay
    I don't really understand what this list is trying to do?

    You don't have enough cheap/free creatures to cast to make effective use of Glimpse, there's a bunch of rituals + Cradle but the only cards worth accelerating into are Buried Alive and GSZ, there's space dedicated to making walls/high toughness creatures good but the only good one have for that is Phyrexian Walker... the list is all over the place.

    I'm not trying to be rude, but... was this a troll attempt? If not, I apologize, but my criticisms of your list still stands; it's a pile of jank.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  11. #51

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I don't really understand what this list is trying to do?

    You don't have enough cheap/free creatures to cast to make effective use of Glimpse, there's a bunch of rituals + Cradle but the only cards worth accelerating into are Buried Alive and GSZ, there's space dedicated to making walls/high toughness creatures good but the only good one have for that is Phyrexian Walker... the list is all over the place.

    I'm not trying to be rude, but... was this a troll attempt? If not, I apologize, but my criticisms of your list still stands; it's a pile of jank.
    It definitely might be the wrong direction but think you're missing a couple interesting interactions:

    tireless tribe/ornithopter/phyrexian walker work with doran and assault formation
    dark ritual/culling plus buried plus 2 0 drops gets you vengevines turn 1 and one drops open up turn two scenarios. greenbelt rampager was suggested which is tempting
    Drawing 2 or three cards with glimpse is the goal, still think that merits inclusion but haven't tested glimpse as they are expensive in paper
    The natural orders in the board probably need to be patterns unless I change the creature base, the dark rits/cradles help to ramp here. Protean hulk plus 0 drops and doran/sylvan safekeeper/teeg is strong

    I'll test, and see how it goes. The list is admittedly things I would like to do more than objectively good choices.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  12. #52
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    It definitely might be the wrong direction but think you're missing a couple interesting interactions:

    tireless tribe/ornithopter/phyrexian walker work with doran and assault formation
    dark ritual/culling plus buried plus 2 0 drops gets you vengevines turn 1 and one drops open up turn two scenarios. greenbelt rampager was suggested which is tempting
    Drawing 2 or three cards with glimpse is the goal, still think that merits inclusion but haven't tested glimpse as they are expensive in paper
    The natural orders in the board probably need to be patterns unless I change the creature base, the dark rits/cradles help to ramp here. Protean hulk plus 0 drops and doran/sylvan safekeeper/teeg is strong

    I'll test, and see how it goes. The list is admittedly things I would like to do more than objectively good choices.
    I hadn't considered Tireless Tribe with Assault Formation, so that's my mistake, but making Ornithopter a 2/2 is super low impact.

    I'm not saying the deck doesn't have some lines that can go broken, but the deck lacks coherencey and consistency. There are way too many separate game plans and mini combos going on; there's going to be a ton of akward hands where nothing lines up.

    I don't mean to stifle innovation or persuade you against brewing by any means, I just wasn't sure if you were serious or not.
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  13. #53

    Re: GB Vengevine

    I think you're right that it is too inconsistent, might go with a prison version. The abyss is $2 online. Not sure if I want chalice or dark ritual.


    4 Sword of Fire and Ice
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Buried Alive
    4 Vengevine
    4 Ornithopter
    4 Phyrexian Walker
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    3 Spellskite
    2 vault skirge
    3 Assault Formation
    3 The Abyss
    4 Bayou
    4 Marsh Flats
    2 Swamp
    1 Forest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Gaea's Cradle
    4 Ancient Tomb
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  14. #54
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Pimp already becomes a 2/2 flyer once threshold is achieved, which I think will happen fairly often (especially with 8+ fetches, Lotus Petals, and just generally filling the graveyard with dudes.) It is conditional on the graveyard, but it already has super synergy with the deck. Ornithopter offers nothing beyond a free creature. The other comparison is Rootwalla, which for a common is nothing short of busted with Pimp/Troll/Vengevine.

    It's got a ton of really cool interactions; I think Glimpse is actually worse than Beck // Call. It costs another mana but it triggers when Vengevines enter the battlefield.
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  15. #55
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    @kinda

    I think you really need to make your own thread. Your lists don't really make any sense and have no real relevance to the topic at hand other than having a tiny bit of over lap card wise.

  16. #56

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    @kinda

    I think you really need to make your own thread. Your lists don't really make any sense and have no real relevance to the topic at hand other than having a tiny bit of over lap card wise.
    Vengevine has 1 legacy result in 2018 on mtgtop8 and 0 in 2019. Maybe it's possible the best shell for the card is not trying to create an updated version of UG madness? I think the phoenix deck has shown that buried alive is decently strong. After that though with vengevine, unlike phoenix where cantrips are clearly strong, there really aren't any restrictions beyond needing creatures in the deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  17. #57
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Vengevine has 1 legacy result in 2018 on mtgtop8 and 0 in 2019. Maybe it's possible the best shell for the card is not trying to create an updated version of UG madness? I think the phoenix deck has shown that buried alive is decently strong. After that though with vengevine, unlike phoenix where cantrips are clearly strong, there really aren't any restrictions beyond needing creatures in the deck.
    Pheonix being a better Buried Alive deck doesn't make Vengevine inherently or strictly worse. It does mean that making Vengevine viable will likely require a different approach, however.

    The power here lies in the decks ability to drop it's entire hand on the board within the first few turns, and is extremely threat dense to offer resiliency with the backup plan.

    Pheonix is a fun brew, for sure, but it comes with its own set of strengths and weaknesses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  18. #58
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Vengevine has 1 legacy result in 2018 on mtgtop8 and 0 in 2019. Maybe it's possible the best shell for the card is not trying to create an updated version of UG madness? I think the phoenix deck has shown that buried alive is decently strong. After that though with vengevine, unlike phoenix where cantrips are clearly strong, there really aren't any restrictions beyond needing creatures in the deck.
    Buried Alive is good in the Phoenix deck because it not only tutors for the creatures but is part of the combo. Dark Ritual + Buried Alive is 2/3 of the requirement for Phoenix to come back. It isn't a t1 deck, but that's ok, it can Thoughtseize or t1 Delver (not sure what it plays currently) and t2 play 2nd land, Dark Ritual, Buried Alive, Ponder = 9 attack power t2. Very likely lethal by turn 3.

    The card that makes Vengevine potentially playable in 2019 is Hollow One. Without Hollow one, and to a smaller extent Collective Brutality, this deck wouldn't even interest me.
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  19. #59
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Also wanted to mention that I made a few more tweaks to my 4c list.

    I've dropped down to 14 lands, cutting down to 6 fetches, 1 Bayou, and 0 Underground Sea, with 4 Undiscovered Paradise.

    Long story short is that this deck doesn't need very much mana to work, outside of wanting land drops to trigger Bloodghast's. Sometimes, all the deck needs is a single mana to go off. Consider a hand of Undiscovered Paradise, Tireless Tribe, Vengevine, Prized Amalgam x2, Bloodghast, Hollow One. That's an opener that basically dumps its entire hand onto the board turn 1 (well, Bloodghast won't hit the board until turn 2, but yeah). A hand like that is not uncommon.

    This deck wants land drops for Bloodghast, but definitely does not want to flood on mana sources. Two mana is pretty much the top of the curve, for either Lotleth Troll, or casting two 1cc creatures in a turn to enable Vengevine recursion.

    Going up to 4 Undiscovered Paradise is a huge improvement for triggering and retriggering Bloodghast, especially with the lower land count.

    With the two available spaces, I can fit the 2 Carrion Feeder's back into my list. These guys feel very important to the engine, IMO. Not only do they improve Swords to Plowshares matchups, they're also pretty important for helping to recur Vengevine's and Prized Amalgam's in the midgame by sac'ing Gravecrawler's, or even Bloodghast's (this only works for Prized Amalgam, obviously). Upping my 1cc creature count, zombie count, and adding another backup threat are all pretty solid points, too.

    Here's my current list:

    B/G/w/u Fiendish Nature

    Lands (14)
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Marsh Flats
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland
    1 Savannah
    1 Swamp
    4 Undiscovered Paradise

    Creatures (38)
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Lotleth Troll
    2 Carrion Feeder
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One

    Spells (8)
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Lotus Petal


    EDIT: I'm not 100% sold on the Savannah... I might decide to turn that into a Bayou or Underground Sea.

    I also haven't decided how to construct the sideboard yet, which could also influence the construction of the manabase.
    Last edited by Hanni; 02-14-2019 at 03:45 PM.
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  20. #60
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Vengevine has 1 legacy result in 2018 on mtgtop8 and 0 in 2019. Maybe it's possible the best shell for the card is not trying to create an updated version of UG madness? I think the phoenix deck has shown that buried alive is decently strong. After that though with vengevine, unlike phoenix where cantrips are clearly strong, there really aren't any restrictions beyond needing creatures in the deck.

    Sure there is no accepted agreed upon list or anything and this is new.

    HOWEVER spamming a list with Sword of Fire and Ice, Chalice, The Abyss, and Assault formation, WITH NO EXPLANATION, is not only rude but it's completely nonsensical. Like it is the very definition of off topic unrelated spam and i don't think any mod would have a problem deleting it and giving a warning.

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