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Thread: GB Vengevine

  1. #181
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I want to try it, for 3 specific reasons:

    1 - It could allow for t1 Vengevines. Land, Lotus Petal, Putrid Imp, discard Vengevines, 2nd Imp, attack.
    2 - It allows me to play t1 Thoughtseize PLUS a cantrip or Imp
    3 - It feeds Angler really well

    If it doesn't do it's job, that could easily be where I drop in Stitcher's Supplier before cutting Daze.

    Edit: I would have to add lands, I'm only on 14 currently.
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  2. #182
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Tested against Sneak/Show and D&T, 5 games each pre-board. Dnt went 4-1, Sns I went 3-2 (got luck on the play once, no lands but double petal and Street Wraith.) I did really like Daze, but what really surprised me was how many games Vengevine just didn't matter. I have had games where I had a Street Wraith and 5/5 shadow t1 and just raced Sns after a t2 thoughtseize. So far Lotus Petal has enabled some incredible plays, including a t1 Gurmag.

    Pretty fun so far! Vengevines are discarded for value or shuffled away with Brainstorm. Hollow One's are a redraw after turn 2 or so and make sure I always have something to do with my mana. Its promising, and just as I posited Brainstorm has been nutty good at pulling it all together.
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  3. #183
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Interesting. It sounds like Petals are really helping to enable explosive openings.

    Without Cabal Therapy, is Bloodghast worse than Basking Rootwalla? I guess you don't have any green sources (yet), but Rootwalla can block, potentially get bigger, and helps trigger Vengevine.

    E.g. Turn 1
    PIMP -> discard Rootwalla, Vengevine, other card -> Madness Rootwalla. Vengevine returns. (Hollow One works too)

    Bloodghast is just value to discard, but it doesn't trigger Vengevine, it can't block, and it's slower to hardcast. Prized Amalgam is another potential recurring beatdown creature (that also pitches to FoW). It works well with Ghast but doesn't trigger Vengevine either.

    In my original BG Vengevine decks I always ran Gravecrawler, because it was such an easy way to get a double cast for 2 mana even in topdeck mode. Without easy ways to trigger Vengevine, I can see why it's underperforming and getting shuffled away more. Without green sources, you can't even hardcast them either.

    Finally another option is to just run Oko, Thief of Crowns. Because you can. Oko not only wrecks fair decks, but you can Elk your 2/1s and 1/1s into good threats. Or just trade a Bloodghast for their best creature, and still get Ghast back after it dies.

  4. #184
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Bloodghasts have haste usually by turn 3, which has provided lethal. So far it's good, and BB is easy to cast. Without green in the deck Rootwalla is really unfit.

    I basically need everything to be huge or free. I'm debating a 3rd Gurmag, its absurdly easy to cast turn 2. Vengevines are fine, they show up often enough, I just mean to say that hardcasting them isn't as profitable (so far) as just trading it for other cards. Giving Imp flying isn't irrelevant, either.

    I do really appreciate your comments about Therapy. Daze is ok so far, it allows me to just go for combos t1 with 'free' protection, but Therapy with Bloodghast (and Supplier if I get that in there) is just outstanding.

    Oko is a good idea, but 3 mana is still a lot. I feel like this deck can support blue or green, but not both reliably. Maybe Petals can help with that. Maybe just a Bayou would be smart for options out of the board like Oko, Veil of Summer, and to hardcast Vengevines with a Petal. I don't know how valuable Abrupt Decay is for what I'm doing, but it's another option.

    One card that has been pretty good as a 1-of is Coliseum. It really helps mid game Hollow Ones happen.

    Still curious about Wonder; it could potentially be good enough.
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Five games against Burn, 1-4. I might have to concede this matchup.

    Debating whether it would be better to just jam Faithless looting instead of Brainstorm. It certainly makes the Hollow One payoffs easier. If I do that, Daze has to go in favor of Therapy so I have more valuable discards.

    EDIT: I will try the above after 30 or so games with the Daze version. I need to see where the real holes are, not be misled by simple variance. I also need to re-evaluate a couple cards, namely:

    Prized Amalgam
    Hogaak, Risen Necropolis
    Hedron Crab

    Those cards could be crucial to getting agro wins. Amalgam is hard-castable in UB easily, gives another payoff with Bloodghast making it better. Hogaak is just the biggest creature that can come back from the graveyard. Crab is another card on-color that can turn fetchlands into pure gas with Vengevine/Bloodghast but doesn't do anything to support the Hollow One synergy.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 08-10-2020 at 11:03 AM.
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  6. #186
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    If you're going to go back to the older plan (discard outlets vs putting cards from the top of the library into the graveyard), why deviate from the shell I posted before?

    Tireless Tribe is critical to having the density of discard outlets to make the deck function, and being a 1cc creature is just as important for enabling the explosive turn 1 plays. It's much better than cards like Careful Study. Being a creature is so important for the all of the synergies with the rest of the deck. Being a repeatable discard outlet is also extremely important for discarding midgame topdecks that you want in the yard (or dead cards in hand to trigger a topdecked Hollow One). You also usually want to discard more than 2 cards in the opener, and you need to discard at least 3 to make Hollow One cost 0 mana. You're building the deck wrong if you aren't running Tireless Tribe.

    The addition of Once Upon a Time and the new mulligan rule dramatically improves the consistency and fixes most of the issues the deck had with occasionally losing to itself.

    5c Fiendish Nature

    Lands (14)
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Undiscovered Paradise
    4 Mana Confluence
    2 City of Brass

    Creatures (34)
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Putrid Imp
    2 Lotleth Troll
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Hollow One
    2 Gravecrawler
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Vengevine
    2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    Spells (12)
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Once Upon a Time
    4 Lotus Petal


    I used to run Carrion Feeder, but it was literally the weakest creature in the deck. It's great against Terminus, but unnecessary against Swords to Plowshares, and the tricks with Gravecrawler and Bloodghast are minor.

    Hogaak is a little slow in here without fetchlands, and cards like Stitcher's Supplier and Faithless Looting, but it can still come down fairly consistently by turn 3, and as early as turn 1 with the right draw. Getting cast from the graveyard can contribute to recurring both Vengevine and Prized Amalgam, too. The fact that it's another free and recurring threat contributes to the mass density. Not to mention 8/8 trampling ends games fast. It's basically this decks finisher if the initial rush is insufficient.

    Gravecrawler is still suspect due to being the next worst creature in the deck, due to costing mana and having a tiny body, but I feel that it pulls enough weight, especially with Cabal Therapy, to still be worthy of inclusion.

    I'm pretty sure the deck is capable of running Force of Vigor in the sideboard instead of Nature's Claim to deal with problems like Leyline of the Void and Blood Moon, which is a massive improvement.

    The deck was pretty sick before, and much better now with the new inclusions and new mulligan rule. It's pretty resilient to Force of Will and Chalice of the Void, and plays through graveyard hate much better than Dredge. It's definitely beastly against the midrange Oko decks that are rampant in the metagame right now.

    In regards to a comment earlier about why to play this deck instead of the standard Hogaak lists, would be the speed. While Hogaak can develop a more powerful board with multiples of Bloodghast, Vengevine, zombie tokens, and Hogaak, it takes a bit more setup and is slower to get going. Think S&T vs Reanimator. Where Hogaak consistently goes off turns 2-3 and kills turns 3-4, this deck consistently goes off turns 1-2 and kills turns 2-3. Sometimes, being faster has its advantages. Being able to get under the hate or kill a turn faster can be all the difference sometimes. Being different also makes it require slightly different disruption from the opponent to sufficiently attack it.
    Last edited by Hanni; 08-13-2020 at 01:24 PM.
    Sligh
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    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  7. #187
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I was trying to make something work that didn't fold to grave hate, which was where the Shadow/Daze plan came from.

    I'll probably pick up the cards to test this, I'm only 10 cards away from having this built.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  8. #188
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    This deck is fairly resilient to graveyard hate. It gets under the slower more effective hate like Rest in Peace and Containment Priest, has redundancy to reduce the impact of single target stuff like Surgical Extraction, and can still cast most of its threats through a Leyline of the Void (albeit at dramatically reduced efficiency). It also runs enough green cards to sideboard Force of Vigor, and has access to all 5 colors to open it up to vast array of other sideboard options too.

    I'm not sure that Daze does enough vs graveyard hate, especially without the other tempo tools like Wasteland, and Deaths Shadow is just a big vanilla creature. Swords to Plowshares is seeing enough play these days, and the deck is already somewhat soft to it, that I don't think that's the backup plan that I would want to be on. You can already cast Lotleth and discard some creatures (especially Basking Rootwalla) to cast Hollow One without regard to the graveyard, and you can regularly hardcast Gravecrawler and Bloodghast as well.

    Are people even playing significant sources of maindeck graveyard hate these days?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Good points. My thinking wasn't to fight grave hate, just convert into a Shadow deck post board. I had Thoughtseize and Street Wraith already... add shocklands and it's a passable Shadow deck post board.

    I do like your version though, I'm definitely going to build it.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  10. #190
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Faerie Macabre looks insane as graveyard hate in the sideboard. It can be grabbed with Once Upon a Time on turn 0 and then played if we are on the draw, dodges countermagic, can't be discarded by Collective Brutality or Duress, discards to Lotleth for pump, discounts the cost of Hollow One later on if our initial discard outlet gets dealt with, and does enough to stop most graveyard strategies for the turn or two that we would need.

    Collector Ouphe is pretty high up the curve, but seems solid against quite a few archetypes. I'm not sure yet on it, but creatures in general out of the sideboard are great with Once Upon a Time, and all of the other creature synergies we have. If we can cast it turn 1 off of a Lotus Petal, that seems like a pretty solid start against Storm and Karn matchups.

    Big Game Hunter is fantastic against Emrakul; less good against Grislebrand but still gets the 7/7 lifelink off the table. Sucks that it doesn't also deal with Marit Lage, but still probably worth consideration. Madness creatures in general are just sweet with the rest of our gameplan.

    I'm still thinking of other cards we might need based on matchups, as well as our plan vs opposing graveyard hate, but I think we want mostly 0cc and 1cc options in most cases, with creature options being the best when possible. Most likely to include some number of Veil of Summer since that card is just absolutely insane vs most of the format, although I'm not sure if that is something we would need.

    Some other creature options could include:

    Gaddock Teeg
    Carrion Feeder
    Mother of Runes
    Giver of Runes
    Qasali Pridemage
    Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    Tomik, Distinguished Advokist
    Phyrexian Revoker
    Big Game Hunter
    Nightshade Assassin
    Vengeful Pharaoh

    (I'll add more to this list later as I think of them)

    We probably need an answer for Infect, Elves, and Goblins, and I think Firestorm or Force of Despair are our best options, with Firestorm likely getting the nod. Sickening Dreams is okay, but the cost is prohibitive, and the same is true for Zealous Persecution, although they are certainly stronger than the other two. I think Plague Engineer is simply way too slow, unfortunately. I suppose Contagion is another option, but I'm not sure if it would be strong enough.
    Last edited by Hanni; 08-21-2020 at 09:51 AM.
    Sligh
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    /r Miracle Intuition
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    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  11. #191
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    With that in mind, here is a rough draft for a sideboard:

    4x Faerie Macabre
    3x Force of Vigor
    2x Veil of Summer
    3x Thoughtseize
    3x OPEN


    I'm not sure whether there is merit to Pyroblasts/conditional counters in the sideboard, but it looks like a solid 3 or more slots open to address the metagame. I'm not sure Veil of Summer should be at 2, that's the average for what most decks play, but it could be more. I think Therapy + Thoughtseize is very good against Sneak/Show, but maybe Surgical is just a necessity even with the Faerie Macabres. I could go either way based on testing.

    The tribal decks are coming back into popularity (Goblins, Elves, Humans, even some Merfolk) so I wonder if some sort of anti-tribal card is necessary in the sideboard, Darkblast coming to mind. I also think a Marit Lage answer is pretty important, it's probably the best combo deck ATM. Diabolic Edict does the job, and in some cases we can just race. If the Mox Diamond/Dark Confidant version becomes popular we are in good stead, but if the Turbo Version with Not of This World stays popular that's a tougher nut to crack. If storm establishes more of a presence more copies of Veil would be smart.

    I like our matchup against traditional Dredge, actually. Faerie Macabre is a free answer that can actually accelerate our game plan by enabling Hollow Ones. Our creatures are generally bigger as well, so that's a bonus. As you say, Once Upon a Time can be powerful at feeding Faerie's to combat them.

    Curious what you think the sideboard would shape up to be. I also remembered I don't have any Caverns, which could be problematic. They are pricey and fairly important I'd say.
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  12. #192
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I like the idea of exploring free options like Leyline of Sanctity as well, although I'm not sure that we would need that card specifically.

    There are also cards that play exceptionally well with our gameplan, like Wispmare and Ancient Grudge.

    Also, don't forget that we also need to worry about fighting other graveyard hate, so things like Silent Gravestone also have relevance. Even something like Swan Song could be a strong option. Pithing Needle can put in work too and deals with Marit Lage. Also, I like Seal of Removal better for Marit Lage than Diabolic Edict, because it is much easier for them to beat Edict and is better vs S&T, although maybe Karakas would be even better? There's also Path of Exile and Assassin's Trophy too.

    I'm also not even sure what I would want to cut from the maindeck for sideboard cards, which has a huge impact on how we build the sideboard too.
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    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  13. #193
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I think the first cards to go on the cutting block are Cabal Therapy (for more relevant interaction) and Once Upon a Time. Those cards super-charge the agro plan but don't enable it as good as Imp/Tribe. The other weak spots would be anything that is ultra graveyard dependant and can't be hardcast: Hogaak and Hollow One seem the weakest. While Hollow One doesn't need the graveyard, it also costs a whopping 5 mana and cause absurd card disadvantage if we utilize other cards to enable it. We just don't have any fat to discard like spare lands or dead spells.

    I like Ancient Grudge and Pithing Needle. We could also play a Crop Rotation/Karakas/Bojuka Bog sideboard plan, which is pretty compact. It's card disadvantage but it wouldn't be for the blue matchups anyways.
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  14. #194
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I don't think it's that simple. It really depends on the matchup. Cabal Therapy is extremely important for a number of matchups, and Once Upon a Time is also about more than just improving the aggro plan; it helps reduce mulligans by ensuring the opening hand has the correct combination of pieces and mana. It then digs for gas in later turns when we have no other use for the mana, and can dig for creature/land sideboard options. In fact, Once Upon of Time may make land options like Karakas more valuable than other non-creature non-land options. Maybe in a few matchups we could trim a copy or two, but cutting all of them is probably wrong.

    I'm also not sure that cutting Hollow One is where we want to be either, because we still want to dump our hand before graveyard hate comes online (and it's a threat that sticks even if the opponent responds with say a Surgical Extraction). Also, discarding Basking Rootwalla's go into exile before coming into play instead of the graveyard, so you can use them to reduce the cost of Hollow One without card disadvantage. I'd be much more interested in cutting Prized Amalgam first, since it depends on other creatures getting reanimated in order to trigger, and Gravecrawler because it is still the weakest threat in the deck.

    I'd also cut Lotleth Troll before Tireless Tribe or Putrid Imp if it's not a matchup where Troll is really good. I can dig cutting Hogaak though, since it's the hardest one to enable.

    It's also possible that instead of straight cutting specific things, we trim a copy or two from a few things.

    Beyond that, the maindeck is really tight, so we really have to evaluate each matchup and keep the sideboarding minimal for each one.
    Sligh
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    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  15. #195
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Great thoughts, you've obviously done your homework. I wasn't suggesting cutting the 1-mana enablers, no way.

    I like the plan of trimming across the board, making the plan a little less dense but not hamstringing the strategy entirely. I could see cutting 1 of each of Amalgam, Troll, and Hogaak for 3x sideboard tech (not Force of Vigor, in that case it may be correct to cut Hollow One, your thoughts are appreciated here.) I think sideboarding can only consist of 3-5 cards at most, the decknos just too tight. It's like boarding with manaless dredge, honestly
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I've tested a little bit, just against Death and Taxes so far. The deck has absurdly explosive starts in non-blue matchups, but not always. Sometimes I end up with lethal turn 2, sometimes it's just a Hollow One, Bloodghast, and Prized Amalgam which can be good but not neccesarily game-winning. Against D&T specifically, a single StP followed up by SFM > Batterskull just completely blanked the game plan. There is quite a bit of a 'glass cannon' feel to this deck. I may have just been too impulsive, wanting a fast start even if it was sub-par. It will take some time to figure out when to go for t1 shenanigans or to wait a turn or two to establish something more decisive.

    Once Upon a Time is incredibly good here, no doubt. It's the most powerful I've seen the card be in any of my testing in various decks (which is admittedly not very much.) What really softens the deck is it's lack of removal...something needs to be worked into the deck, either a Vengeful Pharaoh or Big Game Hunter, or even something as simple as Dismember or Fatal Push. The deck is super tight, so I don't know what to do here, maybe just keep it in the sideboard. Fatestitcher seems pretty decent actually, because it taps down a blocker, is easy to Unearth, and supports a swarm approach.

    I can't help but want to tweak it! Hogaak seems counter-productive, there just isn't enough dead fodder in the graveyard to feed him without compromising the other synergies. I don't want to exile Vengevines or Bloodghasts just to get an 8/8 Plow-ed. My initial thoughts are to up the Gravecrawler count or to add in something that could help supercharge the other threats. This could be where Pharoah/BGH gets added in. I wouldn't be opposed to something like Stinkweed Imp or even trying to find a way to massage the numbers for Chancellor of the Annex +1-2 Reanimates.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  17. #197
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    It's okay to be explosive on turn 1, even if it's not going to be enough to grind out the entire game. The deck topdecks into mostly gas that will continue to add to the board state, and many creatures lost in combat (or to non-exile or Terminus removal effects) keep coming back. It's generally a good idea to sandbag creatures in hand past the initial burst to allow you to assemble additional bursts in the midgame. Keeping excess Tireless Tribes, Putrid Imp's, and Basking Rootwalla's in hand is almost always the correct thing to do. Sandbagging threats that you cannot immediately recur like Vengevines and Amalgam's is also correct for a number of reasons. It can be sometimes be correct to sandbag Gravecrawler and Bloodghast as well.

    Some hands can demolish D&T with Cabal Therapy rips and a few quick bodies. Additionally, Lotleth and Hogaak are fairly good at smashing through ground stalls.

    Batterskull itself is certainly a nuisance, but easily handled postboard with Force of Vigor. This is another reason to sandbag Rootwalla's and such. You should be getting parity out of this card often due to the multitude of targets. Cabal Therapy is also really good at snagging equipment when they don't cast SFM off of a Vial.

    Postboard, you definitely want to bring in a mass removal effect, but keep in mind that you want to hit Containment Priest, possibly with a Mother of Runes on the board. Pithing Needle as a 1-of is also solid. Other options could include Carrion Feeder to grind through StP effects. Strength of Lunacy could be cool too, but is possibly too narrow; Mother of Runes is probably just better.

    The deck could pack maindeck removal, but it really has to be a synergistic creature or land. Big Game Hunter is narrow, and I don't think Vengeful Pharaoh deals with the sort of threats we want to be dealing with properly, but I'm not saying they couldn't be viable. Nightshade Assassin seems like the most generally playable one, although 2 mana is expensive and it means properly managing hand resources for the black card count. Still, if I was going to run maindeck removal, it would be Nightshade. Ruthless Sniper could also be sweet, but possibly too slow.

    I'm not convinced that the deck needs maindeck removal, but some sort of -x/-x sweep is definitely necessary. Elves, Goblins, and Infect are all going to be extremely difficult without it. Chord of Calling is a really interesting option for enabling hosers like Plague Engineer. Conclave Tribunal is also pretty cool. Mob could be okay, although Tribunal is likely better. I still would prefer creature-based options for single target removal effects though. I've searched for creature-based mass removal, but cannot find anything good enough for those at 2cc or less (Orzhov Pontiff is the best I could find but costs 3 mana, which is just not cheap enough to be playable).

    Hogaak isn't powered up by the Delve mechanic, but by the Convoke mechanic. If you can get one or two junk cards in the yard, you tap 5-6 creatures to power him out. By midgame, you might have several more junk cards in the yard, and possibly even more bodies on board, which makes him even easier to enable. He's mostly used as an over-the-top midgame creature (turns 2-4), to push through game states where you need a finisher, like against a Batterskull or a bunch of chump blockers. Obviously, if you're losing all of your onboard creatures, he can be difficult to cast, but you should always end up with enough resources unless you're opponent is using effects like multiple StP, Terminus, or graveyard hate.

    Chancellor of the Annex is a solid disruption piece, but I'm not sure I like Reanimate in here. Dread Return could also work, although I'm not sure if there are enough hands that can multi-recur threats to enable it consistently. Endless Obedience could possibly work too, but it's a lot harder to cast it for 0. However, I'm not sure I like the direction this plan would take the deck in, and I'm not sure it would even be worth it. You have to cut too much business away from the main engine to enable a far less consistent second engine. I think I'd rather run Dark Triumph if I wanted a harder punch with the initial burst, rather than trying to reanimate a fatty (cutting rainbow lands for a fetch/dual/Swamp config), but that's not something I want to do either.

    Stain the Mind is a really cool option as a sideboard card for combo matchups, or even against problem cards like Terminus. Anje's Ravager could be cool as a sideboard creature that gets brought in against matchups that require a grind, since he's graveyard independent as a threat and fuels an insane amount of resources everytime he attacks.

    There's not really much room to tweak the maindeck; Gravecrawler and Hogaak are the only two cards I could realistically see being cut, but I feel like they are both better than any other options available. The only maindeck cards I would consider would be removal (like Nightshade) or an engine card (like Ravager).

    The sideboard is the main area that I feel could use some work, tbh. I'm still far away from narrowing this down into a solid 15.
    Last edited by Hanni; 08-20-2020 at 05:23 PM.
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  18. #198
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    Great thoughts, I know most of my discussion is based on inexperience.

    I really like Chancellor, I want it to work, but I'm not sure it's worth it. What do you think about Chancellor sideboard for combo matchups? I also think Dread Return is likely the only good reanimate spell to include, if any. I like the 'free' disruption from Therapy and Chancellor against Storm and Sneak/Show, and even against Reanimator.

    What are you thinking for sweepers? Plague Engineer, Toxic Deluge, Zealous Persecution, and Golgari Charm come to mind.
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  19. #199
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    Re: GB Vengevine

    I really like what Chancellor does for Reanimator, but I just don't know if it does enough for us. The early game disrupt is great, don't get me wrong, but it just doesn't do enough for us otherwise. Yeah, we can discard it to pump Lotleth or reduce the cost of Hollow One, but we don't run the density of reanimation spells that Reanimator does, and it's going to clunk up the deck more than it is going to help, I think. Reanimation spells are pretty bad for us; most of our creatures reanimate themselves.

    Whether or not it's worth it as an opening hand disruption vs other disruption is questionable. It costing 0 mana is fantastic, but needing to reveal it from the opening hand is suspect. We also can't dig into it turn 0/1 with Once Upon a Time vs other creature/land options.

    Thalia seems pretty reasonable against Storm, as does Collector Ouphe. We already have Faerie Macabre vs Reanimator and Storm, and we can have Big Game Hunter/Karakas for Reanimator/S&T, along with Force of Vigor vs Omnitell.

    All I'm saying is that we have plenty of other options for dealing with combo decks, and we want as many of those options to play double duty in other matchups while synergizing with our deck construction as much as possible.

    I realize Annex hits other decks too, but it has to be in the opener to do anything, and is a dead draw if we draw into it. I won't cross it off the list without testing it, but I think there are better options.

    We probably need Wasteland/Ghost Quarter for Tabernacle (or Pithing Needle on Wasteland), so a Crop Rotation package could be possible, although I like the idea of Weathered Wayfarer or Elvish Reclaimer to dig for lands more, since they are creature based. I think Wayfarer gets the nod because it's a Nomad (same as Tireless Tribe for Cavern), and it's activated ability costs less. It's also card advantage vs parity, and it's unlikely for us to grow Reclaimer to 3/4 in most games. I'd consider Reclaimer more if I cut the rainbow lands for a 3 fetch/Bayou/Scrubland/Swamp manabase, but I think the rainbow lands are better overall. Wayfarer just works better with our much lower land count, in most cases, although it does make Bojuka Bog worse (sorcery speed).

    As far as sweepers go, they have to cost 2cc or less. 3cc is too expensive for this manabase, and too slow in most cases even if we could make our first three land drops without eating a Wasteland. Free is always best, but the free options mostly suck, and I don't think Firestorm is going to work (since we likely don't have much left in hand to discard when we are ready to cast it), so we're stuck choosing between the 2cc options.

    Double-costed spells like Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Marsh Casualties, and Devastating Dreams are a tough sell though, since they cannot be cast from Cavern of Souls, so I'm thinking Sickening Dreams or Chord of Calling + Pontiff or Engineer (or whatever 3cc+ creature) are our best options. Pyroclasm is also a thing; I don't like that it can't deal with Mom + Containment Priest, but Sickening Dreams can't either. There's also Electrickery, Volcanic Spray, or even Forked Bolt as other options. Ruthless Sniper could also be an option, despite being slow.

    Honestly though, whatever the choice, I think it needs to be able to deal with x/2's. I still haven't figured out what I want to do for the sweeper slot yet, unfortunately.

    I think I'm going to try Sickening Dreams first. I like that it can be direct damage later to close a game out in niche situations. I really wish there was a viable creature option though. Chord of Calling is something else I'll definitely be looking into. Pyroclasm is my other favorite option from what is available, if Sickening Dreams is too hard to enable. Honestly, a 1BB Sorcery with 1B Madness: All creatures get -2/-2 would be ideal, but unfortunately that doesn't exist; Biting Rain is 1 mana too expensive on both the base cost and the Madness cost. A 2cc creature (using whatever additional cost to make it so cheap) that ETB's to give everything -2/-2 would be even more ideal, but alas.

    EDIT: Fuck. After rereading Firestorm, it might actually be our best option. I thought it was 1 damage divided per card discarded, but it's 1 damage to each. Discarding 2 cards deals 2 damage to 2 targets each, discarding 3 deals 3 damage to 3 targets each. It still requires a fairly hefty discard investment to sweep, so I'm skeptical, but it only costs 1 mana and it's instant, which are both such a big deal. It can also hit the opponent, so it gives us the same reach as Sickening Dreams. I'll go back to trying Firestorm first. I think the key is to wait to explode with creatures until turn 2, where you can cast Firestorm and still cast two creatures (Rootwalla, Hollow One, or Lotus Petal) to trigger Vengevines. In that case, you could also Firestorm first and then play the second land to immediately trigger Bloodghast's too. I think I'm sold on Firestorm, to be honest.
    Last edited by Hanni; 08-20-2020 at 09:35 PM.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  20. #200

    Re: GB Vengevine

    I've been toying with idea of abusing recursiveness of creatures like gravecrawler and bloodghast (and vengevine) by using cards like fleshbag marauder, innocent blood and recurring nightmare.
    Maybe that is a different deck.

    EDIT: spelling

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