Page 4 of 16 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 304

Thread: GB Vengevine [Hogaak Placeholder Thread]

  1. #61
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,818

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Buried Alive is good in the Phoenix deck because it not only tutors for the creatures but is part of the combo. Dark Ritual + Buried Alive is 2/3 of the requirement for Phoenix to come back. It isn't a t1 deck, but that's ok, it can Thoughtseize or t1 Delver (not sure what it plays currently) and t2 play 2nd land, Dark Ritual, Buried Alive, Ponder = 9 attack power t2. Very likely lethal by turn 3.

    The card that makes Vengevine potentially playable in 2019 is Hollow One. Without Hollow one, and to a smaller extent Collective Brutality, this deck wouldn't even interest me.
    I agree. Hollow One is absolutely the reason why Vengevine may finally be Legacy viable again, and is certainly what drew my interest in. I mean, sure, the deck could have ran Memnite instead as additional free creatures alongside Basking Rootwalla, but there's a massive difference between 0 mana 1/1's and 0 mana 4/4's.

    Prized Amalgam is also a pretty cool addition. They're not as good as actual Vengevines, but they increase the body count of creatures that you can dump in the yard and get back for free. It only takes one other recursive creature to bring them back, and 3/3 is still a solid size.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  2. #62
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,776

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Here's my current list:

    B/G/w/u Fiendish Nature

    Lands (14)
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Marsh Flats
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland
    1 Savannah
    1 Swamp
    4 Undiscovered Paradise

    Creatures (38)
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Lotleth Troll
    2 Carrion Feeder
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One

    Spells (8)
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Lotus Petal


    EDIT: I'm not 100% sold on the Savannah... I might decide to turn that into a Bayou or Underground Sea.

    I also haven't decided how to construct the sideboard yet, which could also influence the construction of the manabase.
    I like the direction you're going. By cutting down on mana sources you can cram in all the relevant creatures and be more explosive on turn 1s. I thought multiple Undiscovered Paradise would be too many and too awkward with lands bouncing back to hand, but they also fix your mana on turn 1 very well.

    Maybe +1 Carrion Feeder -1 Gravecrawler. Feeder is really good in a lot of cases even without Gravecrawler. It combos with Bloodghast/Amalgam recursion too, grows off stuff dying, and saves you from Terminus/StP. OTOH Gravecrawler is the slowest and least threatening of the creatures you want to pitch.

    For the sideboard, seriously consider a couple copies of Big Game Hunter. I'm not just trolling. With one of your 12 discard outlets on board, this card is a 1 mana instant that kills Emrakul, Griselbrand, Gurmag Angler, Tombstalker, Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf, Sire of Insanity, Tidespout Tyrant, Iona, Elesh Norn, Chancellor of the Annex... It's your best card to bring it against SneakShow, Reanimator, and Eldrazi. It also kills any midrange guy that could profitably block Vengevine and Hollow One.

    Some number of Faerie Macabre is probably good: BR Reanimator, Phoenix decks, Loam, even for Grixis Control and Storm.

    You need some outs to Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage. Maybe Nature's Claim or Fragmentize. They also deal with stuff like Pithing Needle, Relic, Crypt, Ensnaring Bridge...

    Surgical and Faerie Macabre don't necessarily hurt you that much since you have so many different threats. You could bring in some Silent Gravestone, but you might be better off just having another creature in the opener instead and trying to brute force your way through it. Needs testing.

    You need outs to turn 1 Chalice of the Void on the play. Really badly. Abrupt Decay is tough on so few mana sources, but you don't have many other options.

    Turn 1 Blood Moon on the play wrecks you, but I think you're better off praying to dodge Red Stompy than trying to board against them. Chalice / Moon / Trinisphere + sideboard hate is just death.

  3. #63
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    You need outs to turn 1 Chalice of the Void on the play. Really badly. Abrupt Decay is tough on so few mana sources, but you don't have many other options.

    Turn 1 Blood Moon on the play wrecks you, but I think you're better off praying to dodge Red Stompy than trying to board against them. Chalice / Moon / Trinisphere + sideboard hate is just death.
    With such an all-in strategy it could be completely correct to just sideboard a couple extra lands, just taking out a couple of redundant/lower power level cards (Bloodghast seems like the obvious choice.) Sideboarding with such a linear strategy will always be a chore but giving yourself a few extra percentage points by stabilizing mana seems like a reasonable way to spend 2 sideboard slots. I think the correct answers to Blood Moon or Chalice are obviously Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation. Wear // Tear is also decent. Blood Moon is the bigger issue than Chalice I think. I see the uphill battle, so praying to avoid Red Stompy and therefore conceding the low win percentage (on the draw) is understandable as well. Winning the die roll is pretty important, practice them dice!

    I'm glad you're doing this Hanni because it will set a boundary for how fast/explosive/glass cannon the deck can be. That sets a benchmark for how to tweak in the other direction for stability (Faithless Looting and/or maindeck removal.)
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  4. #64
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,776

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I think the correct answers to Blood Moon or Chalice are obviously Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation. Blood Moon is the bigger issue than Chalice I think.
    Both are very dangerous on the play, before you've cast a discard outlet.

    How do you pay the mana cost for Ray of Revelation with Blood Moon out in the aggressive list? Notice the manabase of 1 basic (Swamp). Even if you board in more lands, they're probably not basic Plains. With Blood Moon on the play, you won't even have a discard outlet yet, so you need 1W for Ray: Lotus Petal + land (Mountain) + Ray or you scoop. Even when you go first and stick a discard outlet, generating either 1W or G through Moon needs a spare Petal.

    Chalice stops you from sticking a discard outlet. It also counters Cabal Therapy, Basking Rootwalla, Carrion Feeder, Gravecrawler and most of the cheap SB answers you'd want to run. You're stuck relying on Lotleth Troll or hardcasting the slow guys in a land-light deck. Chalice is easier to kill (e.g. Ancient Grudge), but it still Time Walks you at least 2 turns until you can get the mana to kill it, then you can stick a PImp the next turn. When you go first, you can discard Grudge to PImp and then cast it for 1 mana easily, but you may not even need to kill it if you have PImp.

    I see the uphill battle, so praying to avoid Red Stompy and therefore conceding the low win percentage (on the draw) is understandable as well.
    It's a small percentage of the meta. Trying to break the lock when they go first is such an uphill battle (you need to board in 2cc answers to both Chalice and Blood Moon and extra lands and then draw them with Lotus Petals), it's not worth wasting the SB slots. Every deck has some abysmal matchups. Hope to never face them or win the die roll.

    If you ignore Moon, Abrupt Decay is a more versatile 2cc answer than Ancient Grudge and can come in for more matchups. For non-Chalice decks, 1cc answers seem better.

  5. #65
    Member
    pettdan's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts

    704

    Re: GB Vengevine

    You could sideboard two-ish Ash Barrens to help with extra lands and finding basics through Blood Moon. They even combo with Hollow One.

  6. #66
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,818

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I like the direction you're going. By cutting down on mana sources you can cram in all the relevant creatures and be more explosive on turn 1s. I thought multiple Undiscovered Paradise would be too many and too awkward with lands bouncing back to hand, but they also fix your mana on turn 1 very well.

    Maybe +1 Carrion Feeder -1 Gravecrawler. Feeder is really good in a lot of cases even without Gravecrawler. It combos with Bloodghast/Amalgam recursion too, grows off stuff dying, and saves you from Terminus/StP. OTOH Gravecrawler is the slowest and least threatening of the creatures you want to pitch.

    For the sideboard, seriously consider a couple copies of Big Game Hunter. I'm not just trolling. With one of your 12 discard outlets on board, this card is a 1 mana instant that kills Emrakul, Griselbrand, Gurmag Angler, Tombstalker, Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf, Sire of Insanity, Tidespout Tyrant, Iona, Elesh Norn, Chancellor of the Annex... It's your best card to bring it against SneakShow, Reanimator, and Eldrazi. It also kills any midrange guy that could profitably block Vengevine and Hollow One.

    Some number of Faerie Macabre is probably good: BR Reanimator, Phoenix decks, Loam, even for Grixis Control and Storm.

    You need some outs to Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage. Maybe Nature's Claim or Fragmentize. They also deal with stuff like Pithing Needle, Relic, Crypt, Ensnaring Bridge...

    Surgical and Faerie Macabre don't necessarily hurt you that much since you have so many different threats. You could bring in some Silent Gravestone, but you might be better off just having another creature in the opener instead and trying to brute force your way through it. Needs testing.

    You need outs to turn 1 Chalice of the Void on the play. Really badly. Abrupt Decay is tough on so few mana sources, but you don't have many other options.

    Turn 1 Blood Moon on the play wrecks you, but I think you're better off praying to dodge Red Stompy than trying to board against them. Chalice / Moon / Trinisphere + sideboard hate is just death.
    I thought multiple Undiscovered Paradise would be akward too, but it's not actually that bad. The deck doesn't really need to commit too many lands to board anyway. Outside of Feeder/Crawler and Rootwalla pumps, the deck doesn't really need mana every turn. Undiscovered Paradise is just so good with Bloodghast that it's worth running the playset.

    Maybe a 3/3 split of Feeder/Crawler would be better than the way I have it now, I'm not sure. Don't forget that Cabal Therapy can also sac Bloodghast midgame to recur Amalgam's, and Vengevine is recurrable by simply casting two topdecked one drops.

    I agree with most of what you are suggesting for the sideboard. I haven't really gotten around to figuring it all out, though.

    There are some key things to consider:

    1) What are the bad matchups, and how are they fixed? If other combo decks are faster, then I probably need answers. White gives access to hatebears, black can provide more discard, there are other tools for more specific matchups like graveyard hate, creature removal, etc.

    2) How impacted is this deck by the sideboard cards of other decks, and how do we combat this? We might have a great matchup game one against something, but if their postboard plan (i.e graveyard hate) tilts the matchup, we need to be able to address this. Do we play a transformational plan (independent of the graveyard), or do we fight the hate with cards like Nature's Claim, Pithing Needle, Silent Gravestone, etc?

    These are questions I need to figure out the answers to before I formulate a sideboard plan.

    As far as Chalice of the Void is concerned, I actually like Cavern of Souls as an answer to it. Cavern of Souls seems like a fantastic card to bring in against most of the format (i.e decks with Force of Will). I wish I could run them maindeck, but I don't want to cut Lotus Petal for them. I suppose I could cut the Savannah and trim on more fetchlands, but that may impact my ability to cast Cabal Therapy and sideboard cards. I am considering it though... Force of Will is everywhere, and resolving a discard outlet is critical for this deck...

    As far as Blood Moon is concerned, I'm not worried about it. Basic Swamp + Lotus Petal is about as good as it's going to get for playing around it. I cannot afford to run any more basics. Nature's Claim is important for dealing with most forms of permanent-based graveyard hate, and can also deal with a Blood Moon, so that's how I plan to deal with it. If I have a Lotus Petal, it's possible that I can just ignore it... turn 1 Petal into Imp/Tribe, dump my hand onto the board seems perfectly serviceable.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  7. #67
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,818

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    You could sideboard two-ish Ash Barrens to help with extra lands and finding basics through Blood Moon. They even combo with Hollow One.
    This is very sweet tech for dealing with Blood Moon, but it's way too narrow I think. Dragon Stompy is a fringe deck as it is, they don't always get to go first, and they don't always have a turn 1 Blood Moon when they do.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  8. #68
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Both are very dangerous on the play, before you've cast a discard outlet.

    How do you pay the mana cost for Ray of Revelation with Blood Moon out in the aggressive list? Notice the manabase of 1 basic (Swamp). Even if you board in more lands, they're probably not basic Plains. With Blood Moon on the play, you won't even have a discard outlet yet, so you need 1W for Ray: Lotus Petal + land (Mountain) + Ray or you scoop. Even when you go first and stick a discard outlet, generating either 1W or G through Moon needs a spare Petal.

    Chalice stops you from sticking a discard outlet. It also counters Cabal Therapy, Basking Rootwalla, Carrion Feeder, Gravecrawler and most of the cheap SB answers you'd want to run. You're stuck relying on Lotleth Troll or hardcasting the slow guys in a land-light deck. Chalice is easier to kill (e.g. Ancient Grudge), but it still Time Walks you at least 2 turns until you can get the mana to kill it, then you can stick a PImp the next turn. When you go first, you can discard Grudge to PImp and then cast it for 1 mana easily, but you may not even need to kill it if you have PImp.



    It's a small percentage of the meta. Trying to break the lock when they go first is such an uphill battle (you need to board in 2cc answers to both Chalice and Blood Moon and extra lands and then draw them with Lotus Petals), it's not worth wasting the SB slots. Every deck has some abysmal matchups. Hope to never face them or win the die roll.

    If you ignore Moon, Abrupt Decay is a more versatile 2cc answer than Ancient Grudge and can come in for more matchups. For non-Chalice decks, 1cc answers seem better.
    I agree with all of this. Just discussion fodder. I think the Ash Barrens idea isn't terrible from pettdan.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  9. #69
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,818

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Actually, the more I think about Cavern of Souls, the more I really want to run them maindeck. If the deck can resolve a discard outlet, the rest of the combo is impossible to interact with outside of graveyard hate or Terminus. Spot removal on the discard outlet doesn't stop the discarding from happening, Vengevines trigger on cast, etc. Between Cavern of Souls and Lotleth Troll, Chalice for 1 is no longer a problem. Beating Force of Will and Daze game one is just so huge...
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  10. #70
    Member
    pettdan's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts

    704

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Playing one or two lands in the sideboard is quite narrow, and if one chooses to do that, then Ash Barrens is an option. I wasn't really discussing whether this should be done or not, but 14 maindeck lands does seem quite low. It won't be easy to hardcast anything when RiP or Leyline shows up. So playing lands in the sideboard helps vs wasteland, graveyard hate to some extent, as well as blood moon. Just something to consider. Cavern is nice, probably worth testing, but it also makes the mana base more fragile.

  11. #71
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,818

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Playing one or two lands in the sideboard is quite narrow, and if one chooses to do that, then Ash Barrens is an option. I wasn't really discussing whether this should be done or not, but 14 maindeck lands does seem quite low. It won't be easy to hardcast anything when RiP or Leyline shows up. So playing lands in the sideboard helps vs wasteland, graveyard hate to some extent, as well as blood moon. Just something to consider. Cavern is nice, probably worth testing, but it also makes the mana base more fragile.
    14 lands equates to a little less than 1/4 of the deck being lands, which still means you're likely going to see 1-2 during the first couple of turns, which is all you need. That's also not accounting for the Lotus Petals, which can certainly be used to cast sideboard cards.

    You are right that the manabase isn't setup to reliably hardcast Prized Amalgam's nor Vengevine's, but that's by design. Everything else can realistically be hardcast with a Leyline on the board, though. At any rate, I certainly don't want to board into more lands postboard to be able to hardcast Prized Amalgam or Vengevine through a RIP or Leyline... I'd rather board into Nature's Claim.

    I'm not worried about Wasteland or Blood Moon enough to want to board into more lands either. The idea behind me wanting Cavern of Souls in the board is more about beating Force of Will, Daze, and Chalice of the Void (and to a lesser extent, Counterbalance) than about upping the total land count... although I really think I need to fit them into the maindeck. They certainly make the manabase more fragile, and it's a legit concern about having less sources to cast sideboard cards with, but being able to ignore Force of Will seems huge, so I don't know.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  12. #72
    Member
    pettdan's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts

    704

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Ok, all points seem valid. So far I've only test drawn a few hands with an early version, but I was surprised by how inconsistent my starting hands were. Either all enablers or all graveyard creatures, also often light on mana. My initial guess is that I'll need to go for a cantrip shell to make it work, making it a very different deck. But that's just very early guessing.. Did anyone run a few test games yet?

  13. #73
    Is Cancer

    Join Date

    Jul 2014
    Posts

    1,146

    Re: GB Vengevine

    I think this deck may want to take a page from Manaless to get around Blood Moon and things and just have Phantasmagorian in the side or something. May work better with Entomb?

    EDIT: another idea is to run Crop Rotation as a way to find Undiscovered Paradise or Cavern of Souls when needed, reducing the number of copies needed (maybe 2 each?); this also improves your anti-gravehate or allows you a karakas, while also maybe giving you a mutavault for Gravecrawler?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  14. #74
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,818

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Ok, all points seem valid. So far I've only test drawn a few hands with an early version, but I was surprised by how inconsistent my starting hands were. Either all enablers or all graveyard creatures, also often light on mana. My initial guess is that I'll need to go for a cantrip shell to make it work, making it a very different deck. But that's just very early guessing.. Did anyone run a few test games yet?
    The deck is built with redundancy in the same way a deck like BR Reanimator is. Sometimes you may not draw the mix of what you need; that's what mulligans are for. In the same way Reanimator needs Faithless Looting, a fatty, and a reanimation spell, we need a discard outlet, creatures to discard, and a way to return them.

    Luckily, the requirements for returning our creatures are pretty easy to meet... Vengevine needs two creatures to be cast, Bloodghast needs us to play a land, and Gravecrawler wants us to have a zombie in play. The deck is built to have a sufficient amount of these things.

    Cantrips could help to improve consistency, but it comes at the cost of tempo loss. Compare UB Reanimator to BR Reanimator. I don't think this deck is powerful enough if you take away its speed. At that point, you probably need to also be running Thoughtseize, and then... you might as well just play Buried Alive and Arclight Phoenix.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  15. #75

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Anyone want to stream on twitch? I'm still skeptical that getting a single 4/3 haster with a madness style deck is the best direction, but I haven't tested that build. Would be happy to see it had some legs!
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  16. #76
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,776

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Actually, the more I think about Cavern of Souls, the more I really want to run them maindeck.
    I was also thinking about Caverns main, especially in the 4 color list. For your first play it's great fixing, it beats Stifle, and you don't have to worry about Chalice or FoW or Daze on your turn 1 discard outlet. It makes your turn 1 better, but your midgame worse (harder to play "fair"). Maybe the all-in deck doesn't care?

    Caverns naming Zombie casts Putrid Imp, Lotleth Troll, Carrion Feeder, Gravecrawler and even the blue for Prized Amalgam! Very useful. You won't even need any blue duals, because they're only to hardcast Amalgam.

    For Tireless Tribe you have to name something useless like Human. You'll still get your uncounterable outlet on turn 1, but then you have a useless land for the rest of the game. It could be awkward if your first set of creatures gets killed and then you topdeck uncastable PImp. Maybe that's too narrow to worry about.

    The big drawback is it's much harder to cast colored noncreature spells, namely Cabal Therapy and sideboard answers. Worst case with Therapy, you can pitch it to a discard outlet and cast it for Flashback, so maybe it's not a big deal as long as you stick that discard outlet.

    It's also harder to regenerate Lotleth Troll (4 lands produce colorless, 4 lands bounce to your hand), but again maybe that grindiness is less relevant if turn 1 is explosive enough.

    SB cards become trickier. Silent Gravestone (Surgical, Faerie Macabre, Scavenging Ooze) and Pithing Needle (Crypt, Relic) are colorless, so that's fine. Gravestone also hoses BR Reanimator and Grixis GY recursion, so it does double duty as gravehate. Big Game Hunter is a Human (works with Tireless Tribe)! Cards like Nature's Claim though become a lot harder to support with Caverns.

    Do we want Ingot Chewer and friends instead of Nature's Claim/Fragmentize? They're 1cc creatures for Vengevine, pitch to Lotleth Troll, dodge Chalice of the Void, and can be uncounterable with Caverns if the game depends on killing some combo piece backed by countermagic. That could shift us to a rainbow manabase (Mana Confluence or Ancient Ziggurat over fetches and duals).

    Ash Barrens seems bad. You need basics main and then Ash Barrens, too many bad lands. We could just play rainbow lands instead. This isn't Pauper Madness.

    Phantasmagorian seems bad. LED Dredge doesn't run it. Manaless runs it because they literally have 0 options that cost mana.

  17. #77
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,818

    Re: GB Vengevine

    I do like the idea of Ingot Chewer and Wispmare quite a bit, although that does tax more sideboard space and loses the versatility that Nature's Claim offers by being able to hit both artifacts and enchantments, so I don't know.

    Shifting to a rainbow manabase may make more sense if I'm already trying to run a playset of Undiscovered Paradise and Cavern of Souls, although I did appreciate the ability to fetch the basic Swamp when necessary, so again, I don't know.

    Certainly there is much food for thought.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  18. #78
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: GB Vengevine

    I got some spare time today so i sleaved up my straight Bg version. I tested Street Wraith and its absolute garbage, all the criticism of it has been confirmed. Lotus Petal was similarly bad. I had plenty of lands (still on 18) to play out the curve and the petals were only good turn 1, and only if i could maximize the impact. In the blind it was just too risky. I replaced the street wraiths with Stinkweed Imps and the Lotus petals with 2x Gurmag (very good) and 2x Therapy. After a few more games i realized as Hanni suggested that i needed more discard outlets, 10 just isn't enough. I loved that Brutality, even if countered, could enable Stinkweed or other synergies. On a whim when i ordered Trolls i got a set of Sickening Dreams. I added 2 of them as another unconditional discard outlet that whipes out small dudes and gives reach.

    I'm definitely landing in mid-range territory. It can be explosive but is more likely to want disruption first and then pick a turn where i can spam out 3-4 threats. Controlling the timing seems to help get around grave hate.

    Updated list, this is what i will take to the Sunday weekly:
    4x Pimp
    4x rootwalla
    4x bloodghast
    4x vengevine
    4x hollow one
    4x lotleth troll
    4x Stinkweed imp
    2x gurmag angler
    4x thoughtseize
    2x cabal therapy
    2x collective brutality
    2x sickening dreams
    2x abrupt decay
    4x verdant
    2x marsh flats
    2x windswept heath
    1x bayou
    2x blooming marsh
    4x swamp
    2x forest
    1x dakmor salvage

    Sideboard
    2x scooze
    2x sylvan library
    2x hymn
    2x diabolic edict
    4x faerie macabre
    1x Bitterblossom
    1x liliana, the last hope
    1x maelstrom pulse
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 02-15-2019 at 08:06 PM.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  19. #79

    Re: GB Vengevine

    I tried out some games with Hanni's list + a 5 color manabase:

    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Hollow One
    2 Carrion Feeder
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Lotleth Troll
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Vengevine
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Undiscovered Paradise
    2 City of Brass
    4 Mana Confluence
    4 Cavern of Souls

    Sideboard
    2 Big Game Hunter
    3 Wispmare
    2 Ingot Chewer
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Pithing Needle
    3 Collective Brutality

    I had a lot of fun with it! This deck is super hard to mulligan with because you have to weigh the odds of topdecking one of the cards you need to make your hand good. I had more success when I didn't just mulligan to a blazing-fast start--against some decks, Cabal therapy and some creatures is good enough. Unfortunately, some hands I felt obligated to keep had an early hollow one and not much else, and the hollow one just got swordsed and I lost.

    Lotus petal was amazing--it lets you get vines on turn 1 without rootwalla, put bloodghasts into play t1, enables t1 lotleth, and even just lets you hardcast amalgam. I really liked the 5color manabase, by the time I was getting wastelanded I had usually either lost already or had enough on board to win on its own. Cavern was awkward a couples times, and since I think I want assassin's trophy in the board, it gets worse. However, there are so few noncreature spells in the deck and resolving a t1 discard outlet is so important that I think they're necessary. Speaking of trophy, I feel like a more versatile card for the sideboard is better--it kills cards like young pyro (so annoying for this deck) as well as the chalice, rip, leyline, etc. that this deck is worried about. Trophy is worse than decay against counterbalance, and giving our opponents lands is relevant, but I think it's important to be able to kill leyline. Then again, this deck can sometimes pull out wins against graveyard hate via the hollow one plan

    Lotleth troll was good in some matchups, but I sided it out a lot for the brutalities, which are generally better vs. aggro and combo. Both are kinda slow and bad with hollow one, and they're bad enough in multiples that it's probably best to have a 2/2 or 3 troll/2 brutality split in the main. Bloodghast was the worst recurring creature in the deck, and often I didn't hand a land to get it back, so I think cutting one for a land makes some sense. This also makes it easier to cast assassin's trophy.

    Here's where I'm at now:

    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Hollow One
    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 Collective Brutality
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Mana Confluence
    2 Lotleth Troll
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Vengevine
    3 Bloodghast
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Undiscovered Paradise
    2 Carrion Feeder
    3 City of Brass

    Sideboard
    2 Big Game Hunter
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Collective Brutality
    4 Assassin's Trophy
    2 Wispmare

  20. #80

    Re: GB Vengevine

    Oh, and asylum visitor could be a great maindeck or sideboard card given how quickly we dump our hand. Only problem is it might not be enough to set up our combos again, especially the ones involving hollow one.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)