Hi guys!
So, I've been brewing around with this nice deck I've made up. It's pretty much the modern death's shadow seck adapted to legacy. Note that this is not a budget build, I'm seriously thinking that this deck is if not strictly better than at least better positioned than any delver deck currently played in legacy.
Without further ado: Here is my（delverless）list:
//creatures (15):
4 Street Wraith
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Death's Shadow
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Tombstalker
//lands (15):
4 pollute delta
2 verdant catacombs
2 misty rainforest
1 swamp
1 island
1 tropical island
1 underground sea
1 bayou
1 watery grave
1 overgrown tomb
//enchantments (2):
2 sylvan library
//spells (28):
4 force of will
4 stubborn denial
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
//sideboard (15):
2 surgical extraction
2 pithing needle
2 flusterstorm
2 counterspell
2 fatal push
2 diabolic edict
1 golgari charm
2 toxic deluge
list changes over time:
- no more wastelands since they don't do much for my strategy besides randomly mana screwing my opponent every 10th time or so. Since I'm not aggressively fighting deathrite shaman either wasteland is just a lost cause. I instead added 4 thoughtseizes for a more proactive approach and more impactful t1-plays.
- 4 delve-creatures are a bit too much, even with 16 cantrips. I switched the 2nd Tombstalker for a Tropical Island to help against Wasteland decks cutting me off green. No Breeding Pool instead of trop because 2 shocklands are already enough with how many lifeloss-cards I'm running. I basically only want to fetch shocks against control and combo.
- sb now has only 1 liliana, the last hope, but 2 counterspells to fight decks with hard-to-deal haymakers like jace, mentor etc. Moved the second library back to the maindeck.
- now all 4 decays maindeck instead of the 2-2 split. Moved deluges to the sideboard since they weren't quite as versatile. The wraths are still my first choice vs czech pile, elves and d＆t, but these decks are far less common than miracles and stompy decks on mtgo.
- cut the lawst lili from the sideboard since she's too expensive while doing too little. Now on berserk vs. decks that have a hard time removing death's shadow.
- cut the berserk for a golgari charm. That card is good against most of the stuff I want berserk for (strix, TNN, pyromancer), but not exclusively on my winning turn. Against these decks the regenerating is usually also quite important.
A bit to the deckbuilding itself:
I wanted to dodge blood moon, ghost quarter, veteran explorer, path to exile etc., so I play a basics of the most important colors. Blood Moon can still screw this deck, but I wouldn't call it a "good card" except on t1 or t2.
I have 20 cards for FoW which is lower than I personally like, but still ok, especially since you don't solely rely on that card as far as disruption is concerned. Against combo we go to 24 blue cards postboard and tend to keep probes in hand for fow. We have a way faster clock than delver though and I felt very comfortable in my matches so far, winning not only against ANT and TES but also against burn and BR reanimator.
No Delver: I know that this card would give us 4 more blue cards for FoW, but given our high density of nonflips and the fact that it doesn't interact well with stubborn denial. I cut it. DRS is just a better creature overall (life gain is very relevant when you're dodging death), the rest of the deck is tuned towards getting cards in the gy to power out delve-threats alongside death's shadow for optimal stubborn denials.
2 sylvan libraries: This might seem weird from a non-4c-loam deck and even more so from an aggressive one. By
having this additional angle of attack though we play to our strengths: We're playing an aggressive deck that has no dead draws like daze, spell pierce or stifle. We thus don't have to fear the lategame once our opponent's mana has fully developed.
The card against which library shines especially is swords to plowshares which kills all shadows at once and can let them strand in our hand. Unlike a card like Bitterblossom library adds utility without threatening to kill us.
The split between 2 [[Gurmag Angler]] and 1 [[Tombstalker]] isn't as random as it might seem: I cut the tombstalkers against some decks, especially combo. When having multiple delve creatures in hand it's nice to decide what to play. I almost went with 3 anglers, but given the fact that I can't really answer a TNN g1 and the fact that tombstalker blocks delver I decided for the split.
I found 3 delve-creatures to be the optimum in this deck because we're a tad more grindy than Grixis Delver and play at least 4 cantrips more.
The split between the shocks and duals is so you can fetch for shocks when playing vs. decks that don't attack you. On the other side you should try to make (dual and basic）land drops, advance the board and disrupt the opponent if when he's aghressive with creatures. This may vary depending on whether you e.g. have a death's shadow or a sylvan library in your starting hand.
How I came to this idea:
I had been really impressed by by stubborn denial in a Modern death's shadow video I've seen and was theorizing about its playability in legacy.
See, I want a spell snare for CMC1 for a long time now, especially since this could counter removal spells really nicely. Right now delver decks have the disadvantage that they can't counter 1-mana removal spells effectively once the opponent is at 3+ mana.
There was also an article in "This week in legacy" where some RUG Delver player played Hooting Mandrills and Tarmogoyfs alongside stubborn denials. I just decided to play an actually good color combination
The efficient blue counterspell has some other very nice applications, too:
The first on is that it's additional 4 hard-counters in combo-matchup once you have one of your fatties in play. Give that the fatty is very unlikely to leave play in those matchups that's pretty good.
Stubborn denial is also really nice against these last burn spells that kill you because you're on a low life total.
Another problem I've encountered when I played with Death's shadow a while back was that Jace is insanely good against BUG in general. Stubborn Denial helps here though the card is at its weakest in the all-removal matchups like Miracles. I found it to be great vs. czech pile though where has to rely on strixes for tje most part, most of tje time unable to deal with our monsters directly.
Most importantly though: This card is never dead. This whole deck in fact has pretty much no dead draws at all, there have been times where I've even hardcasted street wraith（a better TNN vs. some decks actually.）
So how does this game play out in comparison to other aggressive decks like delver? It's slightly slower at the start, especially the first 1.5 turns, but seems a lot more resilient. The overall speed is about the same, but much more explosive with average wins on t4 when undisrupted.
Oh, and with all this potential lifeloss this deck is complicaged as fuck to play, comparable to RUG delver （I think it's more powerful, too, but that might be subjective because this is my baby）.
Now: This deck is really new and I'm still finetuning. As I'm writing this post I don't have tournament wins to back this up, but feel free to give this deck a spin! This deck plays very unique and truly is a blast to play, in all my legacy days of tuning and brewing decks I haven't created a deck that has felt this powerful!
Old reports:
（15.12.17）
Here's a quick report on the version that still played 2 Lilianas md, 2 decays and 4 wastelands from a league where I went 4-1:
R1 I played against Belcher. I had the FoW in g1 and mulliganed to FoW in g2 (stubborn denial was gas, I had to waste my FoW on a xantid swarm).
R2 I played against Miracles. The preboard game was super-close even though my opponent mulled to 4 cards. It was still way closer than you might think since my opponent drew really well thanks to Miracle's consistency.
Postboard I had thougthseize into library into liliana . On his t3 my opponent just jammed a mentor and I had no answers though I dug with ponder and library.
I had to play a death's shadow and pass at 8 life. My opponent played 3 cantrips and attacked me with a 6/6 mentor and a 5/5 monk. I blocked with the 5/5 shadow and it survived because of how state-based actions work. I then went to 2 from mentor, libraried into deluge, plus'ed lily on mentor and deluged for 1 (leaving me at 1 life), wrathing his entire board while attacking for 11. My opponent topdecked a terminus, but I had the stubborn denial.
R3 I faced MonoR Sneak Attack. G1 My opponent played city of traitors into chalice of the void, praying I just lose since he had no follow-up lands. I had neither FoW nor decay, but played a bunch of cantrips, fetches and a street wraith into a t3 angler. My opponent lands a blood moon which in itself wouldn't have been a problem since I had my 2 basics. He plays seething song into through the breach though, putting in inferno titan and killing my angler. I succumb to a chandra, torch's defiance before I can find anything else I could play with my swamp and island.
G2 I force a chalice and thoughtseize a chalice since I didn't have decay. My opponent topdecks Trinisphere though and I lose quickly because I didn't draw a third land.
G3 I have a big Death's shadow, turns out that's pretty good against a deck with no creatures. and no direct burn.
R4 I face Miracles again. This time though I keep a reasonable opener with an uncastable death's shadow, only to brainstorm into 3 more death's shadow with no way to shuffle them back. FML! My opponent kills me over the next 10 turns in an annoying way only Miracles can do, showing me Counterbalance, search for Azcanta and Monastery Mentor. Whelp, g1 is shitty anyways, at least I know I need all 4 decays postboard.
G2 I have a reasonable opener with DRS and lily, but my opponent has a counterbalance and I have no decay. I finally lose with 36 cards left in my library after having drawn no decay or library to dig for it. Sad news, but it only enforces my believe that library and needle are super important in this matchup (with needle shutting off search for azcanta as well as jace, the mind sculptor.
R5 I played against manaless dredge, but my opponent is super inexperienced: Though he has multiple street wraiths in hand alongside his dredgers, he plays cycles those first in face of my deathrite shaman, drawing cards without replacing the draw-effect with dredging. I quickly win g1+2 by putting him in unwinnable positions with DRS.
Not the most meaningful matches in this league besides the miracles games. Those really depend on whether I have a library or not, I was glad I had 2 in the maindeck. The lilis were really mediocre in this matchup though: She could nor compete with Jace nor accumulate any actual advantage becauae I had no good creatires in the gy.
So, what are these deck's advantages and disadvantages?
I like it against everything except Miracles tbh and while I was quite upset to face that exact deck twice this league the games gave me hope that this matchup is reasonable. This deck might be better than therapy-grixis against miracles, but definitely worse than stifle-grixis.
Against all the other decks: Honestly, I still have no idea, but I somehow keep winning super-fast. Coming from Delver I'm still surprised how quick you can win with only a single creature. While it can be as fast as let's say infect or UR Delver though it's also very much able to grind.
It puts out insanely huge creatures back-to-back very early while the opponent plays his 1-3 power guys. Despite that the delver matchup isn't super hot g1, but gets way better once I have access to more removal postboard.
With Sylvan Library and access to wraths this aggro-deck provides an interesting angle of attack that's a bit unique. I really like this deck for now and would suggest you give it a try. I'll definitely play another league with it when I have time!
Last edited by Agrippa91; 01-01-2018 at 08:16 PM.
Cool idea! Curious about a few things:
- Do you find yourself cantrip-flooded at all? With 16 cantrips (including Street Wraiths), it seems like you could spin your wheels a lot.
- Did you miss Daze even a little bit? As sweet as Stubborn Denial is, I wonder if having access to the Deathrite tempo plays of "Daze your 1-drop, untap and Wasteland you" even some of the time is too high upside to pass up. Daze also allows you to lose more life by returning shocklands. Maybe not the full set of Daze, but some number alongside the Stubbz(?) Probably isn't room for it, and like you said, it's a poor topdeck.
- What about Thoughtseize maindeck? In lieu of a second turn 1 threat, Thoughtseize allows you to reduce your life total, plan your next few turns, and take their best card. Yeah, it stinks to topdeck them late, but it seems like it furthers your game plan a lot early.
- How was the 2 Watery Grave/0 Underground Sea configuration? Did you ever want to fetch for Sea and not Grave?
- I like the idea of Library in this deck 'cuz you can easily lose 8 life to crank out Death's Shadow.
- Have you gotten to play against Delver or Pile yet?
Thanks!
@theMonster:
1: Cantrip-flooding is indeed a thing when it's actual "cantrips" that draw blind cards and not blue selection spells. I find this deck mana-hungry enough though to almost never flood out. You can e.g. always overpay your delve threats if you can afford it. I'm generally also very conservative with my land drops, keeping access ones in hand similar to when I'm playing Delver. I guess you could also play your Street Wraiths, swampwalk seems good against let's say Nic-Fit (Explorer Ramp helps) or Czech Pile.
2: I don't think this deck wants Daze: It's a bit too reactive AND is situational. Force of Will is a necessary evil because of combo, but daze without stifle is something I generally don't like since it's bad against decks that can just fetch basics, often times making both these cards bad or dead. Since I normally have the biggest fish in the sea the things I want to counter are mostly removal spells which can easily be played around. This decks works more for its creatures than most, you don't want them to just die to a 1-for-1, at least not without a fight.
3: I don't think like thoughtseizes maindeck and think this is where most legacy death's shadow decks are going wrong: This isn't Modern where you can rip a hand apart and the opponent has to topdeck, this is Legacy where there's tons of cantrips and redundancy. Unlike in Modern where black discard spells are the go-to cards to stop combo in Legacy you need actual FoW (or hatebears) to have a shot, discard serves more of a support role.
In decks that play so much to the board and with their life totals I really don't want a card that interacts with the opponent's hand in what is at the end of the day negative tempo.
I don't need the information about the opponent's hand, gitaxian probe does that job much better without costing tempo and cantripping, making for better delve-fuel.
IF I would go that route I'd probably cut the 4 wastelands for 4 thoughtseizes, all the other cards (in this specific build at least) are almost uncuttable since the fuel delve and deny the opponent better than thoughtseize could. I really like the additional angle of attack the wastelands give me though as well as the fact that they keep me and my opponent where I want us: Low on mana.
Fun fact: While Wastelands were pretty bad against old miracles they're actually quite decent now due to [[Search for Azcanta]]. There's almost no deck right now where I wouldn't want wastelands.
With 4 DRS and 4 Ponder I have enough t1 plays already considering I have also 8 cyclers to draw into them.
Lastly thoughtseize can just be a dead draw lategame (same as daze). Probe I can cycle though, Street Wraith i can cast, shocklands can enter tapped, Library can serve as Mirri's Guile etc.
4. The reason why I have no Usea is because I can painlessly search for U and B basics. Bayou allows me to now also search for G with basics while giving me another B, the main color of this deck.
5. Yeah, I think library might add some consistency with the blind cantrips and the [[stubborn denial]]-fatty synergy. I'll keep the Liliana in the board now.
6. I sadly haven't played against any of these, but I had the fortune to play against Burn 3 times, going 2-1, 1-2 and now 2-0 with the latest build. This deck is just unbelievably swingy, your 1 and 2 mana fatties allow for some insane comebacks. The hydroblast is actually in the sb specifically against burn.
This deck is so streamlined and doesn't sideboard too much, even against burn I left in all 8 2-life cyclers to be able to play an early big guy with counter backup.
I didn't need any more sideboard cards in any match, so I picked a card that's super narrow, but an MVP. Burn is an iffy matchup depending a lot on whether their last burn spell resolves (hydroblast also helps against sneak/show where my storm hate is bad, TES where surgical is suboptimal and against t1 blood moon).
There are some weak points you'll probably want to address eventually:
-Your big payoff creatures are all colored, non-tramplers which is going to make your deck incredibly weak against DnT and any Strix deck (this is where I actually like Last Hope in the main). You probably still need Berserk, even if your 5/5 can fly.
-In the face of any dedicated yard hate (RiP/Leyline), your deck doesn't really do anything unless it can both find & protect a Shadow (and we're assuming this Shadow could actually attack) - there's currently no plan in the SB to get off the GY train, nor is there a way to change how you win.
-You have basic Island, in an 18 land w/ Wasteland deck, and a full playset of Decay. All your wincons are black...so you really can't keep a hand with just basic Island, unless you have exactly Ponder and can reasonably count on it to resolve. Without the context of a local meta, color requirements like these (particularly when running a Decay playset) are going to create more color-screw, and especially mulligan-based, losses because one of your 14 colored lands can't cast DRS. The cost/benefit analysis of that basic Island really only changes if the local meta is expected to have inbred over-representation of non-Chalice Moons (having basic Island doesn't fix a Chalice problem), B2B, and/or non-GQ heavy Lands.
-As a subset of the last point, Street Wraith is why you can't play Delver and that exacerbates the whole basic Island problem. I doubt anyone has actual statistical analysis on legacy Death's Shadow, but I would be quite surprised if a playset of Street Wraith increased win percentage over the same deck except with Wraith swapped for Thoughtseize. Now a Shadow deck doesn't have to run 4x DRS/Delver/Shadow, but most do; the theory of your manabase seems like it still wants this 'established' set of threats. Stubborn Denial makes analyzing the rest of the manabase difficult from a theoretical standpoint; without Daze it's hard to say how many shocklands are optimal, but if we're going to say your 3 shock amount is ideal, I think Island becomes Breeding Pool and one Watery Grave becomes a Underground Sea (and Misty to black fetch #8, barring something like sb basic Island).
Going fast in legacy [with decks that can't win on the spot] matters a good deal less than playing correctly. This becomes more important against do-nothing decks, where you probably need a better plan than Probe you and still play threat into inevitable kill spell...into repeat the kill spell with SCM. When you choose Wraith over Thoughtseize, you're cutting yourself off of play patterns that can win a game and you're also losing 4 slots of cards that could have kept you from playing blind. Thoughtseize is quite a bit different here than modern; it's counterspell 9 through 12...and it generates velocity. Even the most disruptive Delver decks cap out at 10 maindeck counters [RUG Delver], or they're leaning on sometimes dubious/sometimes great Cabal Therapy to go past slot #8. Modern doesn't play real disruption; it's all discard, and that means their cards can't have additive effects b/c they can't ever count on having a hand (it is for the most part uninteractive/linear combos or heaps of value/discard/kill spell). You can actually do real damage to gameplans in legacy with discard while discovering the best lines to exploit the weakness you just created (namely through what becomes particularly crippling followup countermagic).
Stubborn Denial is Spell Pierce on steroids, but you still have to care about the board. If you're running Stubb, you're really out there to stick it to combo (again, this works really well following up a Thoughtseize), but you are going to lose games to some dumb 2-drop blocker that Daze would have killed on the stack. It's great that you can protect your threat from a fair deck's hand, but you now need Decay to push damage through...so you're tapped too low, playing into mana denial, and now you probably can't cast Stubb??? So however imperfect you find Thoughtseize to be, having it plus Decay likely leads to a more favorable boardstate to executing your gameplan. Cut down on Decay for Berserk and you solve a wider variety of problems, sometimes you just one-shot people as well. If you're set on the Wraith and it's blind velocity, you'll probably get a lot more mileage out of high variance offensive mode Berserk; this can force opponents to 'have it' very early on, and Stubborn will be at its best in those spots.
As far as the board goes, I think that's where Decay #3 and 4 are definitely supposed to reside. You probably also need a better plan vs DnT there, unless you're just willing to admit that's not a m/u you're going to win; Mirran Crusader is really hard to beat when you spend down life total. Dread of Night/Massacre/Toxic would probably have to total 4 sb slots to begin feeling good about that matchup. No matter what RiP is gonna hurt your deck, and I still think Leyline is just game over.
@Fox:
Berserk is a consideration. It can win games on the spot, but I'm not sure whether these are games I'd just win anyways because I have something big out. And the blowout potential from trampling over a strix only to die to a push is definitely there. Maybe as a 1-of, I'll think about it.
About gy-hate: I have 4 decays, I don't think RIP is a problem (and honestly: Who is playing RIP nowadays?). Even against Leyline I only have 4 dead cards (my 4 5/5s) since my DRS can still feed off the opponent's gy. That's decent enough for me, at least on paper. I have yet to encounter 4c-loam or Eldrazi.
I'll try out the basic lands for now though as a delver player I can see your points. Still, I haven't been color-screwed so far and I think the 2 basics are just really good against a variety of decks for the reasons I mentioned above. And I actually can keep an Island hand even without ponder, I just need brainstorm and let's say at least one of my 8 2-life cycler. I'll consider switching the island for the breeding pool though since now I'm playing 6 green cards instead of 4.
Still, Il can cast DRS more reliably than Grixis Delver :p
I've been really impressed by Street Wraith and I haven't even cast it against czechpile yet xD
It does exactly what I want with my fatties: It grows Death's Shadow and fuels my gy for delve with minimal cost. The fact that it cantrips as well as costing 2 life makes it way more suitable than thoughtseize which, as I mentioned, is just dead lategame while Street Wraith is actually a creature.
You can't really compare thoughtseize with Wraith and claim the Wraith does nothing because it's cycling meaning it's actually another card while helping the strategy. Thoughtseize is also just a 1-for-1, that's the same as if I'd cycle into another fatty or removal or cantrip or stubborn denial.
Now I'm really not a big fan of either Thoughtseize OR Daze (without stifle) against Baleful Strix, both cards are pretty bad in general, at least in my experience of playing plenty of delver decks with both of these cards.
I'm now on Library maindeck instead of Lily so I can go over decks that try to 1-for-1 me early on. Lily is nice, but Library (similar to street wraith) just fuels my 8 threats much better. Preboard I'll probably just force Baleful Strixes whenever possible because these decks don't play good counters to FoW. Postboard Lily and Deluge should solve the problem neatly.
Against D&T: I think that with 2 Needles, 2 pushs, 2 Lilys, 2 thoughtseizes and 2 Toxic Deluges I have more than enough great sideboard cards against that deck (I'll side out my 8 counterspells and 2 probes). The basic lands should also help in this matchup.
* * *
In the end though this is all theorycrafting. I'll hopefully be able to run this deck in another league tomorrow and put my theories to the test. Questions like "Do I have too many delve threats", "is decay enough removal or would I rather have berserk to power through", "do 8 blind cantrips add too much variance", "Do the 2 basics add more advantage than disadvantage" or "is 2 libraries enough preboard to power through control" can only be answered by playing tons and tons of matches with this deck which is what I plan to do these next days.
Thanks a lot for the input, Fox. This might've come off as "no, you're wrong! Stop insulting my deck!", but I'm very happy about the constructive feedback.
I'll keep berserk and breeding pool in mind and maybe test these cards out one of these days.
Last edited by Agrippa91; 12-15-2017 at 01:50 PM.
So with Street Wraith, it's not that it's doing nothing; more that it just keeps doing the same thing. You gain speed, but you aren't able to compete on a different axis and you're also more likely to be going down that path blind. To win a game you're going to have to deploy creatures into removal, and then into more removal postboard. This more what I mean when I say your deck being like a train you can't get off; it doesn't matter how fast you're going if the trip ends in a loss. The way you win while playing into opponents' removal plans is exploiting the window when they can't recover from a ferocious Stubb - this is where Decay is quite a bit weaker than Berserk, it's a card that can't really provoke an opponent into picking a fight with Stubb. The 1 mana counter target non-creature is really strong by itself, but your deck with Wraith and no Berserk is probably missing the ability to notice the windows where Stubb actually just wins games. The play patterns change with Thoughtseize where Berserk is more likely to see effective use as removal and a game can be more easily navigated to a point where ferocious creature is made into The Abyss, with that transformation protected and maintained by Stubb.
I've played a good amount of Stubb in legacy, and to me it's the focus on cards which create the preferred scenarios that really make Stubb excel. As you play keep track of your mana, because I would suspect that the two mana required by Decay [and the fetching journey you went on to get that mana] is hurting your ability to execute a plan (things like cantrip, deploy threat, or Berserk) and back it up with the impunity Stubb can provide.
I was playing Sultai Death's Shadow for a while. I started on Josh Utter-Leyton's UB list. The list focused on a more Canadian Threshold style of play, but I found it overly weak to DRS decks. So, if you can't beat them, join them, and started adding green cards to it. The last version I ran at my LGS's weekly was something like
// Land 18
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
1 underground sea
1 Breeding Pool
3 Wasteland
4 watery grave
// Creatures 14
2 gurmag angler
4 Death's shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
// Spells 28
4 Brainstorm
3 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
// Sideboard 15
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Dread of Night
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Torach
1 Flusterstorm
Lists similar to this went 2-2 and 3-1 at my LGS's biweekly legacy event. I was going to try something similar to BUG Delver,
// Land 18
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
1 underground sea
1 Breeding Pool
3 Wasteland
4 watery grave
// Creatures 14
2 Tombstalker
4 Death's shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
// Spells 28
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
// Sideboard 15
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Dread of Night
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
4 Hymn to Torach
1 Flusterstorm
Some comments:
- I found Street Wraith pretty underwhelming in JUL's original UB list, and cutting it for DRS was one of the first things I did. I switched in Thoughtseize to keep up the lifeloss/disruption and to keep the spell density for delver high. I think keeping delver in the list on the margin might be better than trying to rely on getting both tombstalker and angler in play somehow. Since the graveyard is already stretched so thin, I might even prefer something like Hooting Mandrill's in one the spots to add more evasion/cut back on how much delve is needed.
- I would like to fit in a 1-of Liliana, the Last Hope, but there aren't many Baleful Strix's played locally, and at 3cmc it's at the upper end of the decks usual curve. I guess that's not entirely right with Deathrite Shaman, but I was having problems with True-Name Nemesis's, and felt fearful of trying to put another 3 drop in the deck between the main deck and board.
- Without any experience, I'm still hesitant about Stubborn Denial. It's early on worse than a spell snare, but I guess gets conditionally better later on. I could probably be swayed to its side, but it definitely only works with more high toughness creatures to Ferocious is active. However, particularly against Swords to Plowshares decks, being able to daze back watery graves has been useful at keeping the next Death's Shadow relevant.
- This is definitely a different take on applications of death's shadow in legacy, good job!
@ComplexSystems:
Thanks for sharing your lists. I think though that the traditional delver plan with aberration and the other typical blue cards is just better with bolts and without Death's Shadow. Trying too hard to be like delver might just be the wrong approach when brewing with Death's shadow, it's a very unique card that really requires a lot of building around, you can't just slam it in a delver deck and hope it gets there as a pseudo-tarmogoyf while leaving you at 5 life. .
I want to go the road I've taken with stubborn denial (trying to dodge that last fatal bolt) and see whether this card is viable. If it isn't I'll go back to grixis delver myself.
Now, I think I know which card I need to break the earlier discussed boardstalls, thanks @Fox for the inspiration and the suggestion: It isn't berserk though since this leaves me open to 2-for-1s and still kills my guy, it's Toxic Deluge! Due to the high toughness of my creatures I'm in the unique position to be able to play this card maindeck: It can either serve as a -1/-1 effect that doesn't effect my creatures at all, but gets rid or Pyromancer, Mom, TNN etc. Or it's a major wrath similar to Shardless BUG, not caring about my shamans as long as I have the only creature(s) surviving this onslaught.
I'll switch the 2 deluges from the sideboard with 2 of the decays in the main (thanks @Fox again) and look where this is going. Having access to this card in the main as well as Sylvan library really gives me hopes for this deck: It might do some very strange things, but the cards I get to play with are just very efficient and powerful even by themselves.
This again leaves me with only 4 green cards in the maindeck which means I'll remain with my basics for now. This is really a UB deck, splashing green only slightly.
@Fox
It's true: Street Wraith further cements my gameplan and adds redundancy. I don't view this as a bad thing though, Death's Shadow, Tombstalker and Gurmag Angler are cards you really need to build your deck around to be good and I want them as consistent as possible. I hope that with 2 deluges (and 2 libraries plus enough cantrips to find them) I'll be able to make this consistency work against fair decks as early as game one.
The fact that I not only have Lili as a grind tech in the board but also Sylvan Library in the main (which really excels against decks who stp my dudes) really gives me high hopes that I'll be able to defeat decks like Miracles who try to 1-for-1 me while needing way more lands than I do.
Oh man, I screwed up really, really badly today. I went 2-3 in the league, but made some major blunders in almost every game I lost. Being at the verge of death, playing with your life (quite literally) makes this deck super unforgiving. I'd compare it to Canadian Threshold difficulty-wise.
Still sharing it here because there's some lessons learned at least:
The first match I won were against UR Delver (2-0). These games were kinda close, but I have giant beatsticks and they don't disrupt my mana, meaning I just get to cast everything I want. They were otp g1, but didn't have a creature besides stormchaser mage which I outraced with Death's Shadow with stubborn denial backup.
On their last turn they fire their lavamancer at me while blocking my death's shadow, not realizing that this grows my other death's shadow to lethal size.
I boarded out my FoWs, libraries and a wasteland bringing in 2 decays, 1 push, 2 flusterstorms and 1 hydroblast. G2 I kill all their stuff and disrupt them, DRS was the real MPV here providing mana and gaining just enough life to be comfortable (I'd say the ideal amount of life you want to be at is between 5 and 8 depending on the matchup).
These tempo decks really struggle against death's shadow when they're trying to chip away damage because at some point my death's shadows are just bigger than anything they have. Normally these decks would then go over to burn you out, but stubborn denial and drs do a good job preventing this.
The other match I won was against High Tide (2-0). One game was close, but I drew into stubborn denial from time spiral and got another FoW from my cycled street wraith. Having 8 hard-counters preboard was really good. Now High Tide isn't necessarily the most competitive combo deck, but with candelabras which are affordable online it's not super bad either. Sadly for them they have no way of punishing me for going super low on life to power out my threats.
I boarded out 2 deluges, 2 tombstalkers and 4 wastelands for flusterstorms, thoughtseizes, pithing needles and surgicals.
The first game I lost and the most annoying for me was against Deep Reanimator: I lost g1 beause they had the double reanimation spell before I could untap with DRS, dodging my FoW (forcing the ritual would've done nothing because they had 1 mana open for reanimate anyways). They get an iona, name black and I have nothing I can do.
G2 I win quite convincingly, wrathing away a grave titan on my final turn to push through with death's shadows.
G3 we trade back and forth. I find a drs, but it quickly succumbs to collective brutality. The opponent has a griselbrand in the gy, but with double island, 2 stubborn denials and 1 flusterstorm I feel relatively safe. I just need to get a big creature.
The opponent has the stage-depths combo out and a pithing needle on wasteland, but I have 2 pithing needles on stage and hexmage, so that's fine.
My opponent plays a Gurmag Angler, but I have a deluge ready. Being at 13 I'm like "let me deluge for 10 so that when I draw a death's shadow it's a 2-turn clock (my opponent was still at 20)! I'll have 3 life for my force of will that I just drew and a fetchland, that should be enough".
Whelp, my opponent topdecks a thoughtseize, takes my FoW and I'm forced to play the usea untapped so I can hold up denial+flusterstorm. Unfortunately this leaves me at 1 life and the FoW I draw next looks quite stupid.
My opponent simply plays hardcasts a Grave Titan with Urborg and I look mighty silly with 4 counterspells in hand (2 stubborn denial, 1 flusterstorm, 1 FoW).
In this matchup I boarded in 2 needles, 2 thoughtseizes, 2 flusterstorms and 2 surgicals, taking out 2 decays, 2 libraries and my 4 delve creatures.
This was certainly wrong since it left me with 4 street wraiths, but no delve creatures. I should've probably boarded out 2 decays, 2 tombstalkers and 4 wraiths instead. Library seems quite decent, my reanimator matches tend to go quite long postboard.
The second match I screwed up against Eldrazi stompy: I lost g1 to a Chalice I couldn't answer (such is life).
In g2 I sided out my 4 stubborn denials, bringing in 2 decays and 2 pushes. This left me with only 16 blue cards which is probably why I should've cut FoW alltogether and gone for 2 thoughtseizes 2 needles.
Anyways, in g2 I'm down to 7 life, but have a tombstalker and a death's shadow (6/6) with an angler in hand that I barely can't cast. My opponent has TKS, Smasher, factory and mutavault alongside a few other lands. I then draw a fetchland which means I could power out my angler. I just need to attack with Tombstalker, hold back my angler and shadow for blocking his 9 power and I'm fine, going to 2 life from manlands should he decide to attack.
Well, I'm almost doing that, but then brainfart and think "wait a minute, he has to block my death's shadow because I can fetch for lethal. It's the same when I attack as when I block, might as well force the action, right?".
I then realized that it does indeed make a difference: I could've blocked the reality smasher with the shadow, when I attack he just chumps with a mutavault and I lose on the backswing with only an angler against TKS, Smasher and factory which hit me for 6 exactly (because I had to fetch to play angler this is lethal).
Tears fill my eyes as I realize that I really don't deserve to play this deck, I'm just too stupid for combat math.
Now the only loss that was "legit" and not because I screwed up unproportionally was against RUG Delver. I don't really think this is a super bad matchup, I didn't really draw my delve threats and shadows in time though and my opponent wins two games with mongooses.
I boarded out 4 FoWs and 2 libraries for 2 decays, 2 pushes and 2 flusterstorms (he played with tarmogoyfs). I know that some people like FoW against RUG, but I honestly shouldn't have to force their creatures: I have 8 removal spells and a bunch of creatures that sort of "counter" theirs. I'd rather have the stubborn denials for his potential bolts and submerges/dismembers as well as stifles I need to counter.
Not 100% sure about this matchup, it definitely is one of the harder ones simply because of stifle, daze and wasteland as well as RUG wanting to get rid of DRS at all cost. Unlike UR Delver I also can't just kill all their creatures, I died in g2 with 2 decays in my hand.
Oh yeah, now I actually DO remember now screwing up in g2: I played a death's shadow while on 13 life with a street wraith in hand.
Needless to say I was pretty tilted. Next time I do a big screw-up like the one against reanimator I definitely won't continue playing league matches immediately afterwards
Again: This deck is definitely not easy to play due to the fact that you're never on a super comfortable life total brings a lot of tension in fair matchups.
Fetching is even more difficult than with normal manabases and you constantly have to make choices of how you want to dodge death who's looming above you. It's not like Grixis Delver where you sometimes you just slam your stuff and win comfortably at 16 life.
Played a few matches afterwards in the practice room to relax and defeated Elves (2 maindeck wraths ftw!) and deadguy ale (library + stp on death's shadow ftw!) both 2-0.
Against RUG Delver, the FoW postboard question has more to do with what you can do on one mana that they have to react to, given that you run 18 lands. What you'll find is that the only one drop you really have that matters is DRS and Push; then (often past the point where it'd make a difference) you add Shadow to that list. The rest of your one-drop spells are good, but they don't really require a response. From their perspective they just grind through Push, and preferentially kill DRS with Bolt. Every game is different, but if they are free to go Delver, pass -> you resolve DRS -> Bolt DRS, hold up Stifle or Wasteland you, and potentially still have Daze online. Pretty quickly you now need to have Decay mana rather than play the Wasteland subgame, and this does not end well for you; with each hit you're losing the ability to use Probe/Wraith/Toxic/Shock and to a lesser extent Wasteland as a land drop. Indirectly eating into the equity of these cards is a pretty effective way to undermine how your deck wants to operate, which gives RUG Delver the benefit of time as their topdecks keep getting better while yours go the opposite way; your guys might be bigger, but it's like trying to come from behind with Phyrexian Processor. Running FoW postboard at least gives you a better chance in the opening turns to provoke RUG into picking up a land either in response to DRS or to protect the Bolt targeting it, and you're going to find more time to either put the mana together for a larger plan than they have or send Wasteland activations right back at them (both approaches increase the value of Stubborn, the latter approach helping out non-ferocious). As a side note, I also don't think you ever want to front-load life loss onto a 3cmc Deluge vs RUG and not have FoW to up the odds of resolving it.
Without rethinking the 1cmc plan structural plan of your deck, I don't think you're supposed to win all that often vs a competent RUG pilot who knows to kill DRS on the field whenever possible. If I'm boarding your list vs RUG I like all Fluster and Push coming in regardless of draw/play. On the play I don't mind Library since it's basically a discard spell with upside if they don't have the countermagic to discard. On the draw I'd bring in Thoughtseize since it's another 1-drop they kind of have to counter (Library coming out). The four cuts I'd make for Fluster and Push are probably -1 delve threat, -3 Wraith (though you could also do -1 Stubborn). I don't think I'd go up to 4 Decay (don't ever want to see it in an opening hand), but I'd probably bring in one from the board and cut a Deluge.
UR Delver is probably a decent matchup for you since they run out of gas and aren't great at beating 5/5 walls (unless they're on Soul-Scar Mage build). High Tide isn't anywhere near common enough to talk that much about. Grisel'Lands is also a bit uncommon, but I would generally not ever overpay with Deluge just in case I was to topdeck a Shadow; you had 13 life, hand FoW in hand, know they play Grave Titans...and you run multiple Deluge (5+6+1 = 12 life). Your topdecks aren't really getting any better b/c you happened to overpay life; even paying 5 life on Deluge with that hand, you'd have no problem getting a topdeck'd Shadow to 8/8 Grisel-killin' size. This is also a great way to lose a game to any Reanimator deck: cycle Street Wraith, die to it when they cast Reanimate. Against Eldrazi, I don't think there is a ton of interesting decisions for either player; they have Chalice, you have Decay. That said, they probably didn't realize that they should be bringing in Leyline.
If you want to make any decisions based off of this league, you might consider a single Reanimate in the board. It's nice as a 5th copy of DRS vs RUG, and against the rest (excluding High Tide) you've got kill spells and they have creature targets. One last thought against Grisel'Lands: bring in Last Hope; these are slower games, it's a real clock, and it kills Hexmage (would rather have them killing her than thawing a Depths).
@Fox: Thanks for the suggestions, especially when it comes to the RUG matchup. I've come to the conclusion that it'd be just naive of me to expect toxic deluge to resolve against all their dazes, spell pierces and flusterstorms. And honestly I don't need that card, any of my big creatures is far cheaper and does the same job.
I think I'd leave in 2 FoW against the goyf-version, but I'd go up to 4 against the mandrills version since my removal is very mediocre there.
Not sure about reanimate as a singleton, it doesn't really do too much in any matchup since my creatures all have a really high cmc while Death's shadow rarely dies. It seems a pretty bad card against opposing DRS. I've come to the conclusion that I don't really want to fight or kill opposing DRS from delver decks since stuff like pyromancer or delver are far bigger threats. This might sound weird considering DRS is the best creature in legacy, but given the fact that I have drs on my own while having an insanely fast clock once I have a fatty down I think that's the right approach. At least preboard, postboard I have access to a lot more removal.
The only point where I strongly disagree with you is Liliana against Deep reanimator: Not only does this card cost 3 mana and force me to tap out/activate DRS. It also answer only a single card from them and only if they play it out without a Depths. What about ritual into Grave Titan? Reanimated Griselbrand? Angler? Thespian's Stage? My other cards like deluge or pithing needle at least deal with more cards and more scenarios than one.
And yeah, that Deluge for 10 vs. Deep Reanimator was beyond stupid, I agree on that.
Tested with a friend against Burn, lands and Grixis Delver today.
- The Grixis matchup, similar to RUG, is pretty bad preboard though it definitely becomes better postboard (still unfavorable overall though I'd say).
I'll board in deluges since I can just do them for 1 and it's not a super big loss if they don't resolve besides the mana investment.
- Burn is actually again surprisingly good (I'd say about 60%). Similar to UR Delver they get me down rather fast, but once I have big creatures out and counterspells for their last burn spells it's game over for them. Having 1-mana hardcounter again really helps here. Going all-in on a single turn doesn't really do it either since once I have fatties the 4 stubborn denials are insanely good at keeping me at a reasonable life total.
This method of "waiting to drop to 12 or lower, then drop the big fatties and counter the last defense" went to such an extreme that I didn't FoW a t1 goblin guide though I had no removal in hand. I was more concerned about an Eidolon, also as soon as I had a low life total the FoW helped me turning back the game with my fatties.
- Lands is... surprisingly decent honestly. This is really where the wastelands shine, I don't think I could win without those preboard. The fact that I can counter a crop-rotation in response to a waste on maze for a single blue is also very nice. The Sylvan Library and the basics really helped getting enough lands and wastelands out for no real cost.
Postboard needle and surgicals were MVPs as usual. We're still too close to a delver deck to make this a really favorable match, but I'd go so far as to say I wouldn't mind getting paired against lands.
Last edited by Agrippa91; 12-17-2017 at 08:38 PM.
Small update for those interested: Wastelands in my build just aren't really good I've found out. Sure they help against marit lage decks, but against DRS or even control they just don't do much besides the (very) occasional "ha, gotcha!". Since I don't really play softcounters I might as well play something else.
So right now I'm trying out 4 thoughtseizes instead. To make sure I'm still able to play my 3-drops I play a 15th land. Not sure whether that should be a Breeding Pool or an additional fetch right now.
What bothers me most is that I just cannot seem to defeat a Jace. So I hope that the thoughtseizes help in this regard, I think they're also nice against snapcaster, especially when I have DRS out.
I'm trying out 2 [[Counterspell]s in the sideboard for now to combat Miracles in addition to the second library and the 2 Pithing Needles for Jace and Search for Azcanta. I must say that I'm not impressed by Liliana against Miracles. Sadly I didn't get the chance to play against Czech Pile online right now though I've played around 40 matches with this deck (only 10 in leagues though). I guess I still need that lady to slog through Baleful Strixes.
Miracles isn't really a deck you're going to beat without a large deviation from your game plan. The best things you can do are already in your deck: Library x2 and Surgical (targeting StP). Beyond that it really devolves into uninteractive strategies your deck can't use (Boseju, Cavern/Vial, Chalice, etc). The frustrating part about U/W control is that the best strategies to beat them (mill, LD, and game actions) are comprehensive strategies and don't win games of legacy against the field. The way your games are going to go is DRS -> StP the DRS -> doesn't matter what your next guy is b/c SCM flashback StP. Meanwhile all your countermagic has to target bait spells like SCM/StP/Mentor/JTMS/CB/Azcanta/Terminus (fighting their white cards with your blue ones is doubly awful), and at no point have they really had to expend their countermagic on what your deck is proactively trying to accomplish.
If you really want to beat them without going completely off the rails, you're still talking about 4 Wastelands main and then 4 Sinkhole in the board - they actually have to throw countermagic at spells like these, and if you go the extra mile and dump SCM recursion on top of Sinkhole you're really going to win. This isn't really a serious suggestion, but it does illustrate the problems with trying to find an axis upon which to fight U/W (and even the Sinkhole/SCM stuff is probably questionable against U/W Blade). The frustration with the do-nothing strategy is as old as magic itself, and you can even look to the 93/94 format to see the historical responses to miracles (aka 'The Deck') - many of the actual cards for combating do-nothing are outdated, but the philosophy behind those cards remains the same. The issue remains unchanged: sitting across from do-nothing on the creature plan is ever the same massive disadvantage. In case you actually do want to look into Old School, or you play, your Death's Shadow deck is called Juzam Stompy (that formal name might be wrong, but just look for big djinns/efreet + Berserk).
The reason Last Hope is brought in vs them is that they still have to address it while almost all of their sideboard (red blasts, Flusters, Surgicals, Moon/B2B, Wear //Tear) is useless. You're still disadvantaged b/c it dies to proactive white cards (Mentor/Entreat/Gideon), but since you already had to commit answers to those cards anyways, you may as well try to win the lottery and dodge Council's Judgement or Engineered Explosives while going for the ult. Although you can't really take advantage of it, there is always an incentive to put must-answer cards on a cmc miracles would try to use to shut down the strategies they can't beat b/c of their use of EE. You clearly don't have enough lands to pull it off, but if you could support a card like Nephalia Drownyard you would be very interested in miracles having to blow up their own Moon/B2B with EE to address your Last Hope as it would unlock your mill wincon.
In a roundabout way the point I'm getting to is that your SB choices really have to come together to really screw over miracles in an additive way, and for that reason Pithing Needle is actually just bad. The card is "good" but you're now losing to EE and really losing to Wear // Tear (Library represents one of your best ways to steal a game); you're also still not dealing with the main problem - this doesn't force them to burn countermagic, and it doesn't help you keep countermagic in hand. The theory [not entirely realistic] would be:
If we're on the Last Hope plan, we want this one drop to be Dread of Night so Lilly +1 kills everything short of Entreat and animated Gideon (notice how if they animate, they have to fight Dismember on the stack), and we no longer lose two cards to W//T. Dread of Night isn't a great solution, and with Gideon emblem we're bringing in as many copies as we have; fortunately your DnT matchup is so bad that you actually have an excuse to run up to 3 of these in the board. None of this is "good" and we're not getting closer to winning conventionally, but at least now they aren't winning with white cards - and that's your real wincon: killing their blue cards with your blue cards + your black cards (discard). With that plan and this idea of Surgical your StP, we now have the ability to make every DRS a credible threat and you just follow up with Shadow/delve threat + Stubborn Denial after they deal with the DRS. You haven't dealt with JTMS, but you executed a plan to have the right color cards in hand to kill him on the stack (or in the hand if he's sitting there while they try to pick a spot). The tricky part in all of this is that the game has actually devolved into a kind of stupid subgame of Stubborn vs Terminus and which player is ostensibly better at card appraisal, though variance is still a large factor. You win the game if you are able to generally get away with keeping Stubborn in hand, letting Terminus resolve, and not getting punished during the window where ferocious is offline. The alternate way to win that subgame is knocking out Terminus with ferocious Stubborn in a tempo play that buys a window where conventional attack damage can close out the game - this is not the preferred method b/c of the liability of delve threats (2-3 are taken out postboard); i.e. it doesn't matter if you Stubb their Terminus if they resolve JTMS in that same turn and bounce said delve threat.
The Wasteland/Sinkhole +/- SCM theory would be more favorable to Pithing Needle's inclusion:
You have the ability to knock out all the Volcs and the basic Mountain (should they run one), but you're primarily interested in killing anything that taps for white mana. The point here is black cards deal with all the white ones, or they draw out the blue spells (this is where the focus can shift to an attack on red sources). Once the opponent is left on blue cards, nothing they can do really matters because their battlefield quality is so far below yours - and this is assuming they even have the manabase left over to try and compete on this last axis. With this gameplan they are forced to expose vital resources to cast W//T for full value targeting Needle + Sylvan, and you're already denying them the ability to reach an amount of mana to threaten SCM recursion or JTMS (certainly challenged to a point where red blast backup is a pipe dream). The additive damage of Needle comes from Thoughtseize and especially Probe in the early game, and this is amplified if your fetches are Verdant & Mire: with this much mana denial from Sinkhole/Wasteland, you're free to open games tossing around Needles on fetchlands. Once they realize that you're able to cut off their mana to this extent, those blue spells might even have to be pointed towards Needle. If everything goes right, they never get to JTMS mana (or it's totally unprotected on the stack); if everything goes wrong, you can Needle JTMS.
Your current use of Needle vs miracles merely puts a pause on what is already a disaster scenario that you are decisively losing. Needle, while good, really has to challenge cards that allow someone to accrue advantage such that they win the game. Cards like JTMS and Azcanta don't get decks like miracles into a game; their deck makes you stumble, only once you have stumbled is it that JTMS/Azcanta can say you're never getting back in. Previously Needle was actually good vs miracles because you knocked out SDT, the card that accrued the value.
So again, this is the frustration of miracles/do-nothing magic. No one has the sideboard slots to engage in that nonsense and still compete vs other decks playing proactive magic. Even then, most of these decks left over in proactive legacy have devolved to zero-synergy value [which you can't disrupt] as their answer to the threat of do-nothing. The cards that miracles must counter like Sinkholes or randomly jamming Counterbalance offer little assistance vs a wide enough remainder of aggro and combo.
Very well wrapped up.Originally Posted by Fox
Thank you for this high quality content.
1) However, I disagree about the Mill's strategy (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14658&d=288040&f=LE)
-> (link to a french thread: http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=14508)
Obviously, this doesn't mean anything but that was just for the "show". I still remain certain that there are paths/ways unexplored in Legacy and that too much people is just netdecking...
Leave no stone unturned IMHO !
2) And if I may offer another attack's angle, here is a Death's Shadow list on which I am working since a long time with promising results (finished 1st on 22 players, two weeks ago):
->(Thread in French but you could use google translate to get a "feeling" :http://www.legacy-france.org/index.p...c=13440&st=360)
Win 2/0 vs UB Réa
Win 2/1 vs 4c Control
Win 2/1 vs D&T (sans splash)
Win 2/0 vs Burn
Win 2/0 vs Eldrazi aggro
Jund Suicide by Ralf
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Blood Crypt
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Death's Shadow
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lotus Petal
4 Sylvan Library
4 Tarfire
1 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Thoughtseize
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Collective Brutality
3 Hymn to Tourach
Sideboard:
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
1 Reanimate
2 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
1 Rakdos Charm
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
@Fox: Thanks for that post, it matches a lot of my experience. Mainly that you have to switch plans for your deck to be able to compete against Miracles.
Here's how I plan to do it for now:
- First I cut all my stubborn denials. They pretty much always have the answer for my creatures and denial becomes a dead card most of the time.
- Then I bring in a second library. This way I don't have to fight over their stp-snapcaster-stp because it gains me life, allowing me to draw extra cards off it.
- So how do I win the lategame? Well, first of all I play and need less lands, so I have a small natural advantage there. The needles, thoughtseizes, Toxid Deluges, decays, (actual) counterspells and FoWs (which you can hardcast later when in topdeck mode) make it so that nor Mentor nor Jace nor Search for Azcanta nor Entreat nor Counterbalance, Soothsaying or Blood Moon win them the game.
Does this plan sound stupid or what? Funny enough I won both games against Esper Mentor and Miracles today this way. Now it was in the practice room so I won't interpret too much into my wins, but the deck just felt really good to play. Like I realized how the cards in my deck actually did something once I kicked out the stubborn denials in this matchup! Being able to strip away their haymakers and pyroblasts with thoughtseize really helps getting to the later stages of the game. Sure you might have to 2-for-1 yourself occasionally to prevent an unexpected haymaker, but overall that's more than fine.
Again I've been really impressed with thoughtseize, it serves me really well in most matchups and I don't board it out nearly as often as Wasteland.
@Ralf:
That's a sweet list you're playing. The Traverse the Uvenwald definitely seems pretty good, but you might want a singleton Nimble Mongoose to search out against Miracles since all the other cards just get STPed. Imagining Miracles putting it back to the bottom only for you to search it out again and again gives me wet dreams
Personally I'd definitely play 4 STUs because the deck seems to be built around that card, but that could be wrong in Legacy. Maybe cut a death's shadow because it seems to be a bit more situational in your deck?
I like the ability to tutor up a removal (lavamancer) and a berserk (rampager) that's not dead even if you draw it and have no creature out.
How about Faerie Macabre postboard against combo? Tutorable gy-hate seems great!
The only thing I don't like is the maindeck golgari charm, I feel like it's a bit too situational vs. some decks. I guess it's nice because it regenerates and that's why you prefer it over Toxic Deluge which would be my choice?
With the hymns and K-commands you definitely have a grindier gameplan than me, on the other side the lotus petal seems to conflict with it. Let's say you play the library off a petal and it resolves: You're now down 2 cards and would have to pay 8 life just to come even. And pray that you're not going to see anymore libraries off that first one since those equal dead cards.
If you really want that other card type why not just play Mishra's Bubbles?
I sadly can't try out a Jund variant because I don't own goyfs and lilys, to be honest though I prefer blue anyways
Oh you misunderstand, mill is the absolutely most effective way to kill U/W do-nothing. The viability vs the rest of the field is questionable (things like Reanimator, dredge, R/G Lands, shuffle Eldrazi, hostile turbo Anglers seem likely to backfire); but the real point I was making is that attacking miracles effectively with mill/game actions/LD generally takes a lot of slots. For a mill win, the most efficient 1-card combo is the Drownyard, but you would need UB Standstill amounts and types of lands to support it. When you're using non-recursive cards to mill, you need the critical mass to force miracles to interact with them at which point we're probably not playing Death's Shadow and Stubborn Denial anymore.1) However, I disagree about the Mill's strategy (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14658&d=288040&f=LE)
Jund Shadow stuff misunderstands what Shadow really is. If you play enough good cards in legacy you can win games, but that list is only ever going to be as good as Jund (though I'd guess Grove/P-fire is vastly more reliable) - and that's fine, but you're misusing Death's Shadow if you're trying to run Jund Colors in legacy. Shadow requires deliberate card selection and sequencing, which makes it disruptable, and that's why it's always going to need to be U/B core to protect, distract, and disrupt. There's really not a ton of play to turbo-Library, lose 8 life, Death's Shadow the jund deck - definitely has the cards to win games, but it can only solve problems one way and hope discard buys enough time. Just like Jund you're asking to accrue losses to SnT and PiF...that deck jams and can only jam, lacking the cards and colors to ask questions which alter an opponent's play patterns. I could go point by point on that Jund Shadow deck, but the conclusion is that you eventually reach is that it's less-winning Czech Pile (or whatever the best 'good stuff' deck is near those colors). In all fairness U/Bx Shadow can also be described as deliberately worse Delver, but it's worth experimenting here because Shadow allows us to use staples (Probe, Library, Thoughtseize) differently *and* augment them with 'unplayable' cards which become playable because the context has been changed. In the Jund list, the only card that stands out is Ghor-Clan Rampager - while it's cool that it's uncounterable, it's more expensive than Berserk and can't double as removal & life-loss engine...that deck isn't using cards differently because of Shadow, it's just being used as an excuse to run a playset of Libraries backed up by some Lotus Petals. The mill deck you posted is a great example of innovation, but the Jund list is more of an example of what you can get away with in legacy and still win games - not playing the best 'good stuff' deck falls more into the realm of a good meta call based on predicted turnout.
Edit: @Agrippa91 Esper Mentor is the deck I usually describe as either the worst tier 2 deck or the best tier 3 deck, I think your list is quite a bit more competitive, so don't read too much into the value of being favored there.Miracles is a bit more tricky to analyze b/c special attention needs to be paid attention to the degree to which their build is playing into your deck (mainly are they giving your non-blue spells like Decay and Deluge targets, and the length of time these cards sit in hand doing nothing). Glad to see you're running Thoughtseize now, it should operate like hard counterspell 5-8. I'm surprised by your findings on Stubborn Denial though, I would have predicted that it levels the playing field vs miracles' red blast count post-board; are they just playing things into Decay that non-ferocious Stubborn wouldn't have stopped?
@Fox:
1) Mill
Without polluting the initial post, the mill deck was, at the time, thoroughly tested against the field, and believe me or not (internet statement as we all know):
- RG Lands is pretty even/slightly favored. Mill is the way to kill them.
- Reanimator is even/slightly favored due to the tempo nature of the deck.
- Dredge was not tested...doesn't represent enough % of the meta
- Eldrazi aggro is unfavored.
- Heavy Anglers version is unfavored, slightly unfavored/even against light Anglers version.
The only card you don't want to mill is Emrakul as it wipes out all your game plans.
The list needs "revamping" as meta of feb 2017 is no more.
2) Jund Shadow
I beg to differ.
Even if this deck can be seen as a death's shadow ones, it is not completely true.
It is a jund aggro deck aka "good stuff" heavily geared to the lower ground and maybe one of the best tarmo deck outta there.
The amount of active cards is very high and sylvan library is not just there to draw 3 cards a turn and call it a day; depending on your initial seven, you can play it "turbo" or mid rangy (wisely using card selection/draw and DRS for life activation).
9th on a 50 players tournaments
1st on a 22 player after a small MD and a deeper sideboard revamping
This could be luck or this could be something else.
Post board you get 3 pyroblast 2 surgical + 1 or 2 flex spots to complement your initial disruption (4 TS 3 Tourach 1 Collective 3 liliana).
This is not always enough but test samples and sanctioned events pull their weight in.
Obviously as a non blue deck, you'll die to T0 and T1 combo decks, but those openings do not stand against proper mathematical esperance.
The "raw" power of this deck is impressive and the various game plans/out it offers are numerous.
Unfortunately, going any further discussing about it, without testing it, is not very constructive IMHO.
There are internet statements, paper theory/analysis and real games.
10 games pre and postboard might give you a better taste of what I am talking about and without a doubt a far more constructive discussion.
However I'll admit that, as easy it seems to play, the decision branches are various given the deck you are facing and can lead to a loss.
@ Agrippa:
I'm coming from a heavy 4 Traverse build.
The first one was usually used to "get a basic" and got replaced by a 3rd lotus petal to better grow goyf and get delirium faster. Not to mention T1 Sylvan Library.
But you are right in a sense that this last MD change is still under testing.
Golgari charm is, as you mentioned, usually used for its regeneration ability. But its true purpose was mainly to turn the tides against D&T & tokens & Strixes as the meta is over saturated with those strategies, right now. You can call it a MD meta slot.
Enjoy your test with UB Death as it is a nice deck to play just a little to much glass canon to my taste.
If you want a more streamlined list here is one that you should try:
4 Death's Shadow
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith
2 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
Side:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Snuff Out
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Massacre
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bayou
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
@Fox: Thing is that: I usually land a "big guy" around t3, so this is not like infect where I can go under them. Sure I'll force the issue when I see that Miracle's hand is weak or clunky, but generally I need disruption for Jace and Mentor since these cards are far more game-winning than a 5-5.
The "protect the queen" strategy is usually not tuned towards my creatures, but towards my libraries and liliana. This way when my opponent 1-for-1's them I can get value out of the trade by getting back a countered creature or spending the life as a ressource to draw cards.
@Ralf: The list you suggested is more like a budget bug delver list. I built this deck explicitely to utilize the power of [[stubborn denial]] which has been great so far against every deck besides Miracles. Coming from a stifled past I also never liked wasteland and daze without stifles, they struggle hard against basic lands and become good-as-dead cards. If you go down the wasteland-daze route I think delver is definitely the way to go, I cut my wastelands and went for something different, trying to take advantage of the fact that we don't care about lifeloss with library, have maindeck sweepers in deluge and dump more in the gy than everything besides gy-decks by playing 4 delve-threats. I think that's a better strategy than trying to copy an existing strategy poorly, in this case delver.
Yes there are differences, but the cards in your list do not function differently because Shadow is in the mix. I read the cards, they do exactly what they say...however, there is a very loose idea that having Shadow in the deck makes it possible to play 4x Library in legacy, and that the pilot is has greater incentive to pay more life with them.
Let's pretend for a moment that Char is a playable card in your Jund Shadow - this card doesn't really say "deal 4, take 2" anymore. Suddenly you've got this burn spell that potentially is a combat trick, you could even dome yourself to make it a permanent Become Immense for your Shadow if that ever became an optimal play. So for example a 1/1 Shadow can trade with a Grisel due to Char, while a 2/2 Shadow just kills it and stays in play (assuming you're willing to take 6).
Nothing in your list gains additional meaning because of Shadow's inclusion, so your list is really more about a metagame call where a fair deck designed to abuse Library occupies a favorable position to make a deep run. If you want to win tournaments as the only metric, you must have concluded that your approach to Hymn/K-Comm good stuff deck with Goyf/quad-Library gets more wins with value cards [used conventionally] than the Snapcaster/cantrips/countermagic/JTMS of Czech Pile.
My analysis has nothing to do with which one of these is the better good stuff deck; they're both the same thing for the purpose of this thread - decks that don't read cards differently because of Death's Shadow. Your list certainly has a ton of graveyard vulnerability between DRS/Goyf/Lavamancer/Traverse, but it also has more play to it because of that vulnerability; when you add the Library playset, Shadow clearly benefits from all that has transpired and it is impervious to yard hate...but it's really only been selected as [hopefully] the best way to not get punished for everything your deck just did.
Your list uses Shadow like a band-aid for the Library engine, while U/B core Shadow does everything for Shadow in the same way that Infect does everything for Invigorate. The point of decks like Infect and Stubborn Denial/Shadow is to generally keep Delver's good matchups intact but gain a combo aspect which allows us to ask more difficult questions precisely b/c the tools are unconventional. These decks incorporate blue precisely because they are glass cannons, but the reward is you don't necessarily auto-lose b/c some opponent took zero risk in legacy and skill-lessly untapped after resolving Scumforge Mystic. If you play enough Delver, you get tired of your proactive plan not being good enough to stop some garbage value creature and being required to produce the exact answer card you needed or lose without any recovery mechanism.
@Agrippa91 In a longer game, it becomes optimal to let them have their removal spell following a policy of replace over protect your creatures. Versus a deck like miracles, the thing I like most about Stubborn is the imperfect information you present to the opponent where they never really know whether or not you care enough to protect a ferocious threat paired with the requirement to remove ferocious from the board before potentially getting into a stack fight vs Stubborn - this plan though is highly contingent on pulling off Surgical on StP; if you don't do this, it goes poorly quickly. I still do think that post-board it really depends on which & how many targets they play for Decay/Toxic before you settle on whether or not the Stubborns move to the board.
@Fox: There's definitely room for fine-tuning depending on what I see. I think I like the deluge regardless because every list has either mentor or entreat. You're right about the decays though, that card is really only good against search for azcanta and counterbalance. Since this seems to be the new "stock list" for now after a long time of Miracle players running around like ants on a hill trying different strategies that's what I'm refering to for now.
Against lists that play more from their hand I'd keep some stubborn denials instead of some decays.
I'm really not sure about the value of a surgical-on-stp-plan. Not only do they still have terminus (which is far worse since it removes multiple creatures and doesn't gain life), Miracles still has lots of cards to win proactively, namely Jace, Mentor, a Snapcaster when we're on low life or whatever other haymaker they choose to play.
Last edited by Agrippa91; 12-20-2017 at 12:53 AM.
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