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Thread: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    What Aggro_Zombies said.

    I can't believe I'm the oldest member posting in this thread. Really feeling old now, like a relic from a different time.

  2. #22
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    The same things that killed Vintage are slowly but surely killing Legacy. Specifically, ever-increasing costs combined with an essentially solved meta.

    The only thing that will breathe new life into the format at this point is either a change in the reserved list policy or the banning of certain meta-defining cards (e.g., Brainstorm and/or DRS.)

    I don't want this to turn into a B/R discussion about specific cards so let's avoid that here, but basically the meta needs to shake up for anyone that ever cared about the format to want to keep playing it into the future.

  3. #23

    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilla View Post
    The same things that killed Vintage are slowly but surely killing Legacy. Specifically, ever-increasing costs combined with an essentially solved meta.

    The only thing that will breathe new life into the format at this point is either a change in the reserved list policy or the banning of certain meta-defining cards (e.g., Brainstorm and/or DRS.)

    I don't want this to turn into a B/R discussion about specific cards so let's avoid that here, but basically the meta needs to shake up for anyone that ever cared about the format to want to keep playing it into the future.
    Agree with the first point, which is the reserved list aka dual lands problem.

    Disagree with the second point. Old Miracles had a 4-year run, 2013~2016, before it got the axe. Top actually got on the radar on 2015~2016. The meta is always going to be stale, or stable, depending on how one looks at it. Some think the current dynamic of Legacy is just fine.

    In contrast, with team constructed pro-tour, GPs, and SCG's team constructed events, and the typical Legacy GPs, Legacy the format is actually getting more visibility than before. Hence, the format might be getting more exposure, how about the site? Maybe a marketing campaign is the real answer. How many standard players or newcomers of Magic are aware of this site?

  4. #24

    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    I agree with Zilla, his avatar gif basically sums up my feelings in regards to a solved meta, why I stopped being active (aside from the work firewall changing and blocking this site.)

    On the 1st page, it was made mention that there is little to no room for rogue decks (true home brews, not new decks in infancy). I miss being able to jam with jank, net decking isn't as much fun. Just searching SCG (cause gatherer is bollocks) for card types at a certain cc, color, with blank keywor is much more entertaining than copy+paste+pay. /rant

  5. #25
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    For me, the solved meta is the main issue. Legacy isn't really exciting right now. It's the same DRS/Brainstorm slugfest over and over again. Bans are one way to handle it, but it wouldn't solve that issue in the long run (balance is a different topic).

    A few new cards to shake up the meta or even enable a new deck would be nice.

  6. #26
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    I honestly don't think anything can fix it. The main reason I stated on the last page (rogue decks can't compete anymore) is mostly because of efficiency now. There's no point in going Survival of the Fittest into Sneak Attack into Bogardan Hellkite anymore (yeah, I'm proud of that deck), because any rogue deck doing anything similar to that should just be trying to play Griselbrand or Emrakul. It's not just how the Brainstorm/Deathrite efficiency meta has become overpowering, it's also about how the linear decks have homogenized into these things that just instakill.

    Old Legacy had big threats that were still scary, but gave you turns to come up with an answer. Any powerful card now is "counter me right now or you die," or at most "you have literally one turn to answer me." You used to have to grind out games with incremental advantages, now you have the answer or you don't. Remember when Werebear was a scary threat?

    You can't ban a single thing anymore to bring back the open field that it was back in the 200x's, creatures kill too fast, bomb cards are too explosive, and there's just no reason to play 99% of the old cards that don't see play anymore, because one thing or another has just completely supplanted it.

    I only come here out of habit and to say something in the Modern thread every once in a while.

  7. #27
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Honestly, the most pessimistic statements seem to be coming from the people who play very little Legacy now. If you think the meta is solved, it's possible you're not engaged enough with the format to be noticing the evolution. Earlier in this thread, I posted links to a lot of recent Legacy articles, and nobody seemed interested in using them to launch other points of discussion.

    You can be unhappy with the format for any number of personal reasons, such as preferring a lower overall power level, but saying the meta is solved is just false.

    Let's look back at recent breakout decks that weren't considered decks before this year: Ravager Shops, Big Eldrazi, Nyx Fit, Reanimator Depths. Ruby Storm hasn't broken through yet, but it has some promise. It's considered a known deck now. If we go back a bit farther, we hit BR Reanimator and Turbo Depths, too, which shook things up. Those decks came to life or were advanced via the New and Developmental Decks forum. Nyx Fit grew out of the Nic Fit thread in Established, and the Established Decks forum is enormous. People have so many deck options right from the start, and there are plenty of other possibilities still to be explored.

    Locally, Aluren, RIP/Helm Control, Miracle of Science, UWr Stoneblade, Enchantress, Death's Shadow, The Cure, and Tezzerator have proved themselves to be real decks. If you think it's not possible to brew anymore, you're wrong. The format's power level has increased, which makes it less forgiving to jank, but you can still try new things and tune your creations to achieve better finishes.

    Hollywood/Michael Keller is a good example of someone who's always tinkering. He's had good finishes with Manaless Dredge, Dredge, Thought Lash (I think?), and Painter, and if you read his tournament reports and contributions to deck development threads, he's always adapting, digging out old cards and finding new tech.

    Hanni is another longtime Sourcer who had a big finish recently with a deck he adapted. His Deathblade build for Eternal Weekend shifted significantly from common Deathblade lists, incorporating Monastery Mentor, Cabal Therapy, and main-deck Spell Pierce.

    I understand that some people have kids now, but if you don't make time for Legacy, then that's a personal choice; that's not a failing of the format.

  8. #28

    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Well said ESG, well said.

  9. #29
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    Honestly, the most pessimistic statements seem to be coming from the people who play very little Legacy now. If you think the meta is solved, it's possible you're not engaged enough with the format to be noticing the evolution. Earlier in this thread, I posted links to a lot of recent Legacy articles, and nobody seemed interested in using them to launch other points of discussion.

    You can be unhappy with the format for any number of personal reasons, such as preferring a lower overall power level, but saying the meta is solved is just false.

    Let's look back at recent breakout decks that weren't considered decks before this year: Ravager Shops, Big Eldrazi, Nyx Fit, Reanimator Depths. Ruby Storm hasn't broken through yet, but it has some promise. It's considered a known deck now. If we go back a bit farther, we hit BR Reanimator and Turbo Depths, too, which shook things up. Those decks came to life or were advanced via the New and Developmental Decks forum. Nyx Fit grew out of the Nic Fit thread in Established, and the Established Decks forum is enormous. People have so many deck options right from the start, and there are plenty of other possibilities still to be explored.

    Locally, Aluren, RIP/Helm Control, Miracle of Science, UWr Stoneblade, Enchantress, Death's Shadow, The Cure, and Tezzerator have proved themselves to be real decks. If you think it's not possible to brew anymore, you're wrong. The format's power level has increased, which makes it less forgiving to jank, but you can still try new things and tune your creations to achieve better finishes.

    Hollywood/Michael Keller is a good example of someone who's always tinkering. He's had good finishes with Manaless Dredge, Dredge, Thought Lash (I think?), and Painter, and if you read his tournament reports and contributions to deck development threads, he's always adapting, digging out old cards and finding new tech.

    Hanni is another longtime Sourcer who had a big finish recently with a deck he adapted. His Deathblade build for Eternal Weekend shifted significantly from common Deathblade lists, incorporating Monastery Mentor, Cabal Therapy, and main-deck Spell Pierce.

    I understand that some people have kids now, but if you don't make time for Legacy, then that's a personal choice; that's not a failing of the format.
    Must be nice to have a local scene.

  10. #30

    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    If you think it's not possible to brew anymore, you're wrong.
    I also wonder sometimes if this feeling comes as much from becoming more experienced as it does with the format itself changing. Many of the posters here have played Legacy for long enough that the perceived loss of openness in the format could just as easily be their increasing unwillingness to play questionable decks - it might've felt like there were more available decks early on, when they were less able to evaluate viability. I'm not saying the format hasn't also become more streamlined, but I do think there are a lot more viable decks in Legacy than there are in many other formats, and the gameplay is more interesting to boot.

  11. #31

    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    For me, the solved meta is the main issue. Legacy isn't really exciting right now. It's the same DRS/Brainstorm slugfest over and over again. Bans are one way to handle it, but it wouldn't solve that issue in the long run (balance is a different topic).

    A few new cards to shake up the meta or even enable a new deck would be nice.
    eldrazi winter was not that long ago. LOL at the solved meta.

    New stuff makes new decks all the time. Old decks get new tools

  12. #32

    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    Honestly, the most pessimistic statements seem to be coming from the people who play very little Legacy now. If you think the meta is solved, it's possible you're not engaged enough with the format to be noticing the evolution. Earlier in this thread, I posted links to a lot of recent Legacy articles, and nobody seemed interested in using them to launch other points of discussion.

    You can be unhappy with the format for any number of personal reasons, such as preferring a lower overall power level, but saying the meta is solved is just false.

    Let's look back at recent breakout decks that weren't considered decks before this year: Ravager Shops, Big Eldrazi, Nyx Fit, Reanimator Depths. Ruby Storm hasn't broken through yet, but it has some promise. It's considered a known deck now. If we go back a bit farther, we hit BR Reanimator and Turbo Depths, too, which shook things up. Those decks came to life or were advanced via the New and Developmental Decks forum. Nyx Fit grew out of the Nic Fit thread in Established, and the Established Decks forum is enormous. People have so many deck options right from the start, and there are plenty of other possibilities still to be explored.

    Locally, Aluren, RIP/Helm Control, Miracle of Science, UWr Stoneblade, Enchantress, Death's Shadow, The Cure, and Tezzerator have proved themselves to be real decks. If you think it's not possible to brew anymore, you're wrong. The format's power level has increased, which makes it less forgiving to jank, but you can still try new things and tune your creations to achieve better finishes.

    Hollywood/Michael Keller is a good example of someone who's always tinkering. He's had good finishes with Manaless Dredge, Dredge, Thought Lash (I think?), and Painter, and if you read his tournament reports and contributions to deck development threads, he's always adapting, digging out old cards and finding new tech.

    Hanni is another longtime Sourcer who had a big finish recently with a deck he adapted. His Deathblade build for Eternal Weekend shifted significantly from common Deathblade lists, incorporating Monastery Mentor, Cabal Therapy, and main-deck Spell Pierce.

    I understand that some people have kids now, but if you don't make time for Legacy, then that's a personal choice; that's not a failing of the format.
    I agree rather whole hearted with this.

    It's possible lack of local tournaments have people jaded. I'm lucky enough to be in Chicago area where we have 5+ weeklies and other big events in the mdiwest.

  13. #33
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    I personally have a healthy 15-20 man weekly I can attend, a larger monthly, and a big quarterly and that's not to mention traveling a bit for many other events. Legacy is just not in an interesting place right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  14. #34
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Curious here as I've been playing legacy for quite a long time. What decks were present when the format was "interesting"?
    -rob

  15. #35
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Generally [insert player] found the format 'fun' and 'interesting' when [insert player]'s pet deck was doing well.

  16. #36

    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    I think you all lost interest for magic in general (which is understandable after such a long time) rather than in legacy specifically.

  17. #37

    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Curious here as I've been playing legacy for quite a long time. What decks were present when the format was "interesting"?
    I've only been playing for a few years at most now (Legacy). Probably more like 2.

    Meta has had pretty big shifts once to twice per year. I actually don't understand when people call it stale. I would LIKE it to be stale.

    I might actually git gud if deck's weren't getting new tools, and new decks didn't keep popping up.

  18. #38
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Curious here as I've been playing legacy for quite a long time. What decks were present when the format was "interesting"?
    For me personally, I enjoyed Legacy the most when people where complaining that Goblin Lackey was overpowered. I miss having truelly aggressive decks like Goblin and Zoo running around. Even Fish has nosedived. While I love Lands I miss the days before the race to the bottom had yet to take over and a 5 mana 2/2 that made 3 tokens was a true powerhouse.

    I guess my answer is thus, Legacy was best just before the Goyf showed us what creatures where to become.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Generally Dice found the format 'fun' and 'interesting' when Goblins was doing well.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  19. #39
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I guess my answer is thus, Legacy was best just before the Goyf showed us what creatures where to become.
    man do I hope you're among the regulars who visit my decks page as I think you'd really enjoy the nostalgia
    Last edited by Teluin; 01-16-2018 at 11:43 PM.
    For those interested in the latest Ancient decks (and the format in general) visit: http://ancientmtgdecks.blogspot.ca/

  20. #40
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    Re: Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

    I have only played Legacy since 2011, but yeah. Goyf seems like it was basically the beginning, and we are far past the point now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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