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Thread: UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

  1. #1
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    UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

    So, Recoil has been one of my favourite cards that I've wanted to toy around with in Legacy like forever... in the right shell, with a lot of discard, it could be a sweet Instant Speed Vindicate (that also happens to hit Marit Lages and stuff ). Also if they are not hellbent, you just Recoil their Tarmogoyf EOT and if they discard the land they kept in hand, you just untap and Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize their Goyf.


    I toyed around a bit with Recoil Pox in the Treasure Cruise area but then that got banned and I kind of put it away. Now with Legacy being a bit stale and me needing another kick I've put my mind to it again, and I came up with 2 shells that it could possibly work in. I figured I might as well post my thoughts here so maybe the community can help develop this idea if more people are interested in it.


    Shell 1) Pox always seemed like the ultimate shell for this: it has a hard time dealing with stuff like a Jace, this could deal with that & other opponent's superior topdecks, while also giving it the option to play Brainstorm itself (I herd it's a good card...) and maybe even 1 Jace itself. Snapcaster (and/or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy) seems like a fine addition too to give it more late game versatility.

    Shell 2) Only thought of this just now: Deadguy Ale likes to play Vindicates from time to time. And it also loses to your opponents' topdecks more often than not, due to not having Ponder/Brainstorm. Additionally Stoneforge seems kinda 'meh' in this world of Kolaghan's Commands, so why not replace white with blue alltogether.



    I made 2 random lists, haven't had time to test them yet. They're probably still very bad; just two *very basic* piles of cards that I thought could fit the archetypes.

    Recoil Pox

    22 Lands
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    1 Island
    2 Mishra's Factory
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    2 Verdant Catacombs

    4 Creatures
    2 Baleful Strix
    2 Snapcaster Mage

    31 Other spells
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Collective Brutality
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Damnation
    1 Diabolic Edict
    2 Fatal Push
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    1 Innocent Blood
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Recoil
    2 Search for Azcanta
    1 Sinkhole
    2 Smallpox
    4 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Waste Not

    3 Planeswalkers
    3 Liliana of the Veil

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Baleful Strix
    2 Vendilion Clique
    2 Engineered Explosives
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Hydroblast
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope



    Deadguy Recoil

    21 Lands
    1 Bayou
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    1 Island
    2 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Swamp
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland

    12 Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    1 Death's Shadow
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    23 Other spells
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Collective Brutality
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Recoil
    3 Thoughtseize

    4 Planeswalkers
    3 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Diabolic Edict
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Hydroblast
    1 Illness in the Ranks
    1 Marsh Casualties
    1 Null Rod
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Waste Not
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope


    Although I guess if we're already playing Probe-Therapy for EOT Recoil value, we might as well just play Grixis Discard with Pyromancer already... sigh (I guess Rise//Fall and maybe even Burning Inquiry (prolly too janky) would make it different enough from regular Grixis Pyromancer to make it just interesting enough)


    So, if anyone likes this concept: discuss?

  2. #2

    Re: UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjaulnir View Post
    So, Recoil has been one of my favourite cards that I've wanted to toy around with in Legacy like forever... in the right shell, with a lot of discard, it could be a sweet Instant Speed Vindicate (that also happens to hit Marit Lages and stuff ). Also if they are not hellbent, you just Recoil their Tarmogoyf EOT and if they discard the land they kept in hand, you just untap and Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize their Goyf.


    I toyed around a bit with Recoil Pox in the Treasure Cruise area but then that got banned and I kind of put it away. Now with Legacy being a bit stale and me needing another kick I've put my mind to it again, and I came up with 2 shells that it could possibly work in. I figured I might as well post my thoughts here so maybe the community can help develop this idea if more people are interested in it.


    Shell 1) Pox always seemed like the ultimate shell for this: it has a hard time dealing with stuff like a Jace, this could deal with that & other opponent's superior topdecks, while also giving it the option to play Brainstorm itself (I herd it's a good card...) and maybe even 1 Jace itself. Snapcaster (and/or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy) seems like a fine addition too to give it more late game versatility.

    Shell 2) Only thought of this just now: Deadguy Ale likes to play Vindicates from time to time. And it also loses to your opponents' topdecks more often than not, due to not having Ponder/Brainstorm. Additionally Stoneforge seems kinda 'meh' in this world of Kolaghan's Commands, so why not replace white with blue alltogether.



    I made 2 random lists, haven't had time to test them yet. They're probably still very bad; just two *very basic* piles of cards that I thought could fit the archetypes.

    Recoil Pox

    22 Lands
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    1 Island
    2 Mishra's Factory
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    2 Verdant Catacombs

    4 Creatures
    2 Baleful Strix
    2 Snapcaster Mage

    31 Other spells
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Collective Brutality
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Damnation
    1 Diabolic Edict
    2 Fatal Push
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    1 Innocent Blood
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Recoil
    2 Search for Azcanta
    1 Sinkhole
    2 Smallpox
    4 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Waste Not

    3 Planeswalkers
    3 Liliana of the Veil

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Baleful Strix
    2 Vendilion Clique
    2 Engineered Explosives
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Hydroblast
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope



    Deadguy Recoil

    21 Lands
    1 Bayou
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    1 Island
    2 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Swamp
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland

    12 Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    1 Death's Shadow
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    23 Other spells
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Collective Brutality
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Recoil
    3 Thoughtseize

    4 Planeswalkers
    3 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Diabolic Edict
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Hydroblast
    1 Illness in the Ranks
    1 Marsh Casualties
    1 Null Rod
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Waste Not
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope


    Although I guess if we're already playing Probe-Therapy for EOT Recoil value, we might as well just play Grixis Discard with Pyromancer already... sigh (I guess Rise//Fall and maybe even Burning Inquiry (prolly too janky) would make it different enough from regular Grixis Pyromancer to make it just interesting enough)


    So, if anyone likes this concept: discuss?

    FWIW, I brewed a list very similar to the top one! If you are running blue-black pox, I think youre missing out on the opportunity to play either unearth or reabimate. I ran Unearth and you ROUTINELY get to:
    - cast smallpox, discard snapcaster, soon after cast unearth target snapcaster, target unearth, target Baleful strix.

    It actually opens up many CA and filtering routes for pox.
    -You can Brainstorm away the extra cards from extra strix triggers so you can dig deeper.
    - I ran JVP to filter through the deck because your GY is an extention of your hand.
    - we now have collective brutality, which I imagine must be decent.
    - I ran Crucible to occasionally develop wastelock
    - I think I ran 2 Recoil in the 75 (1 main, 1 side) but I think more room could be made getting rid of hymn and adding 1 or 2 Therapy and more recoil, if that's your jam.

    I like the idea of Recoil and I've seen it work via a friend who runs BUG Deed control lists with Liliana and Jace.

  3. #3
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    Re: UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

    Thx for replying


    I think originally a Strix / Unearth / Snap / ... idea had also been in my head but it was too long ago that I thought of it so I had completely forgotten about the Unearth package. I'll give that some more thought!

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    Re: UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

    Probe, Therapy, Recoil....Meddling Mage? A third color is obviously not ideal, but I would think Swords to Plowshares would be a fairly solid addition.
    Brainstorm Realist

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    Re: UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Probe, Therapy, Recoil....Meddling Mage? A third color is obviously not ideal, but I would think Swords to Plowshares would be a fairly solid addition.
    Yeah I did realise some days ago that cutting SFM from Deadguy Ale is probably very fine, but that losing STP as best removal spell is probably rougher on the deck... Maybe STP is the only reason Deadguy is still remotely playable lol. Fatal Push just doesn't cut it.
    Red for Bolt would do something similar in being a worse removal spell but also being a kill spell.

    Then again Recoil also 'kills' anything plow does but admittedly for more mana.

    But Meddling Mage, while not sure how good it is main deck, is actually quite hilarious with Recoil as well :-) Recoil their thing, if they don't discard the same card to try and replay it next turn you can just untap and Mage their Jace/Goyf/... lol!! :-) too bad I'm not really fond of Esper colored decks...

  6. #6

    Re: UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

    I'm somewhere around this:
    4 Baleful Strix
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Cabal Therapy
    2 Fatal Push
    1 Toxic Deluge
    4 Smallpox
    2 sinkhole

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Force of Will
    3 Daze

    3 Unearth
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy*
    1 Search for Azcanta
    3 Liliana of the Veil

    20 lands

  7. #7
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    Re: UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

    Yeah that's something I could see playing

    That looks like it could even use some 3ish Stifle for the Snapcaster / Sinkhole land destruction package - maybe too cute?



    I had a disappointing run with (mono-B) Pox yesterday so going back to the more proactive Deadguy Ale seemed an attractive idea all of a sudden.
    If going blue, that still leaves the problem of losing Stoneforge, in the sense that it provides ways to increase damage through Jitte and Bskull. Just Confi Snapcaster DRS beats seems a bit too slow giving your opponent ways to stabilise again.
    So I was wondering about more beaters...

    Bloodghast works well with Therapy and Liliana, the Last Hope -2 (milling it, returning another creature) but is only 2 Power
    Death's Shadow is unreliable and bad vs Plow
    Vampire Nighthawk is only 2 power but reasonable at both attacking and blocking?
    Tombstalker/Angler are just aweful if you want to play Confi

    Nyxatid maybe? It's potentially a 6/6 most of the time in a discard themed deck for only 3 mana. I thought it was 2 originally and that would have been the nuts...
    you'd have to sideboard it out in every Griselbrand matchup though



    The Rack could be another source of constant damage, that even works through board stalls or pressures PeeWees

  8. #8
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    Re: UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

    So I made a random list with the Rack idea, sideboard is still a mess as well as I have no idea what would be the bad matchups. At least Ensnaring Bridge here seems good (vs Eldrazi, SnT) as The Rack is able to win games without needing to attack ourselves.

    Also, maybe 4 DRS and 2 Snapcaster is better, but I just like Snappies for the reach they provide Maybe cutting the 4th Rack for the 4th DRS is also an option.
    Also still unsure about 2 Push + 1 Dismember or 3 Push. With Confi I didn't want to lose too much life off Dismember either (both for flipping it off Bob and paying Phyrexian mana with life). The main difference between the 2 cards would be vs Eldrazi/Chalice decks I guess; or Gurmag Angler, but I'd rather just Recoil that

    21 Lands
    1 Bayou
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    1 Island
    2 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Wasteland

    10 Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    3 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    26 Other spells
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Fatal Push
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    1 Raven's Crime
    4 Recoil
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    4 The Rack
    3 Thoughtseize

    3 Planeswalkers
    3 Liliana of the Veil

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Flusterstorm
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Toxic Deluge
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope

    edit: altho if this Legacy Shops/Ravager deck becomes a thing I could also see running a Null Rod in the side.

  9. #9
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    Re: UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

    Try Go for the Throat. It's a decent removal spell that is between Dismember and Fatal Push. Two mana is reasonable and it kills just about everything you want it to.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  10. #10

    Re: UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjaulnir View Post
    Yeah that's something I could see playing

    That looks like it could even use some 3ish Stifle for the Snapcaster / Sinkhole land destruction package - maybe too cute?



    I had a disappointing run with (mono-B) Pox yesterday so going back to the more proactive Deadguy Ale seemed an attractive idea all of a sudden.
    If going blue, that still leaves the problem of losing Stoneforge, in the sense that it provides ways to increase damage through Jitte and Bskull. Just Confi Snapcaster DRS beats seems a bit too slow giving your opponent ways to stabilise again.
    So I was wondering about more beaters...

    Bloodghast works well with Therapy and Liliana, the Last Hope -2 (milling it, returning another creature) but is only 2 Power
    Death's Shadow is unreliable and bad vs Plow
    Vampire Nighthawk is only 2 power but reasonable at both attacking and blocking?
    Tombstalker/Angler are just aweful if you want to play Confi

    Nyxatid maybe? It's potentially a 6/6 most of the time in a discard themed deck for only 3 mana. I thought it was 2 originally and that would have been the nuts...
    you'd have to sideboard it out in every Griselbrand matchup though



    The Rack could be another source of constant damage, that even works through board stalls or pressures PeeWees

    I agree with Stifle - that would be fun, but then again I am also irratuinally fond of land destruction.

    The criticism you bring up about Snapcaster and Strix beats being lackluster is spot on. When I played the previous iteration of this deck, I had issues closing out games. Maybe, Tombstalker?

    And with regards to wanting white in the deck, I sketched out this very rough list today :
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Monastery Mentor
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Baleful Strix
    3 Lingering Souls

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will

    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Unearth
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Smallpox

    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Tundra
    2 Scrubland
    1 Tropical
    1 Island
    1 Plains

    Sb
    2 Disenchant
    2 Zealous Persecution
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pithing Needle
    3 Meddling Mage
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Containment Priest

    And this list could very easily switch a few cards for Recoil. What do you think?

  11. #11
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    Re: UB Recoil (UB Recoil Pox, UBx Deadguy Recoil, ...?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjaulnir View Post
    21 Lands
    1 Bayou
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    1 Island
    2 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Wasteland

    10 Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    26 Other spells
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Fatal Push
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    1 Raven's Crime
    4 Recoil
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    3 The Rack
    3 Thoughtseize

    3 Planeswalkers
    3 Liliana of the Veil

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Flusterstorm
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Toxic Deluge
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    Didn't have time for Legacy in a while so yesterday was the first time I actually got to take this out for a spin (the above deck list).


    Played some preboard games vs DnT and Leovold Maverick ish? and probably won around half of them. Also 2 games vs RUG Lands but vs someone who had never touched the deck before.


    Some general thoughts:

    -4 Wasteland didn't feel great, as for stuff like Snapcaster-Recoil you want to have your mana developed. Like vs DnT getting Wasted after you waste their Port, and being left completely f'ed. +1 land should be a good idea too, not being as streamlined as the Ponder decks are. And maybe -1 Snapcaster as you often want to Snap CMC 2-3 spells so it's really a CMC 4.50 card and not CMC 3.50 like in many other decks in Legacy.
    -Raven's Crime was useless as I never had unused lands sitting around as per the above
    -Maindeck Relic (just put that in there to not auto lose to GY decks) felt VERY awkward with Snap and DRS, losing me a game and not doing much else in most other games anyway. Only vs RUG Lands, luckily having it in my opener both times, sealed the deal. So that should definitely go.
    -Maybe 1 sweeper like Deluge should be in the main.
    -The Rack was great vs these nonblue creature decks! Even without Hymn they often were down to 0-1 cards from turn 4 onwards. Like a very akward keep with all 3 Racks 3 land 1 Lili just ended up winning me the game without much.
    -Brainstorm was not as good in this deck as I remember it being from playing other blue decks before.
    -Recoil had its ups and downs: Recoiling (and later Snap-Recoiling) a Marit Lage is great - but Recoiling a Sylvan Library only to have them replay it the turn after, sucks. Should maybe have given them 1 draw step with it to EOT Recoil, untap and TS/Hymn it away. I won 1 of the 2 games where this was an option, but it's probably still a mistake the way I played it.

    Another thing that may be coincidence from such a small sample size: the 4 rounds vs Maverick ish with blue splash, I lost 2x on the play, won 2x on the draw. May be on to something? Cfr Modern 8 Rack that likes to be on the draw.



    Edit: probably trying something like this next week:

    22 Lands
    1 Bayou
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    1 Island
    3 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Swamp
    4 Underground Sea
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Wasteland

    10 Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    2 Snapcaster Mage


    25 Other spells
    3 Brainstorm
    1 Diabolic Edict
    3 Fatal Push
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    4 Recoil
    3 The Rack
    4 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge

    3 Planeswalkers
    3 Liliana of the Veil

    Sideboard (15)

    2 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Null Rod
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope

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