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Thread: Hollow One Controls the Courts

  1. #41

    Re: Grixis Hollow One

    Hello all,
    I have been tinkering with a Grixis Hollow One list lately, but have only been able to play test it against 4 C Pile. In 8 (un-side boarded games) Games I split 4-4 against it. The main reason for my losses was Deathrite shaman and Baleful strix. Both of these cards need answers, or they will remove your threats, and take away your advantage. The deck operates as a hybrid Hollow one / Dredge deck, as I utilize my graveyard for Prized Amalgam, Bloodghasts, Flamewake Phoenix, and Cabal Therapy, then also to fuel big delve creatures. It can be very explosive, and also somewhat resilient with the recursion creatures, and cabal therapy package. I play Lotus Petal over Mox diamond because you are running a shortened mana base already.
    For Mox diamond to be effective you would need be running at least 20 lands in the main deck. Lotus petal does a fine job of accelerating the mana and fueling the GY at the same time. I am by no means a great deck builder, so any input you all can give would be appreciated.

    An example hand to have a solid turn 1 on the play would be:
    Lotus Petal, Faithless Looting, Hollow one, Tasigur, Street wraith, Anger, Fetchland
    Always lead with lotus petal for faithless looting (or careful study) before you play a land in case you hit a bloodghast. Assume you hit a Bloodghast and a land off of the looting (discard your anger, and bloodghast)
    cycle street wraith (assume you draw a Gitaxian Probe), Play your probe; draw off probe (assume you draw a careful study), then play your fetch (return bloodghast), search for a badlands. At this point you can cast your Tasigur, and Hollow one then swing for 10 turn 1.

    Spells: (18)
    4 - Faithless Looting
    4 - Careful Study
    4 - Gitaxian Probe
    3 - Forked Bolt
    3 - Cabal Therapy

    Artifacts: (4)
    4 - Lotus Petal

    Creatures: (23)
    4 - Street Wraith
    2 - Gurmag Angler
    2 - Tasigur
    4 - Hollow One
    3 - Flamewake Phoenix
    4 - Bloodghast
    2 - Prized Amalgam
    2 - Anger

    Lands: (15)
    4 - Polluted Delta
    4 - Bloodstained Mire
    2 - Underground Sea
    3 - Volcanic Island
    2 - Badlands

    SB: (15)
    1 - Cabal therapy
    2 - Silent Gravestone
    2 - Pyroblast
    1 - REB
    2 - Diabolic Edict
    2 - Abrade
    2 - flusterstorm
    1 - surgical extraction
    2 - vapor snag

  2. #42
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    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    I like this list. It feels like it has enough advantages to not be a strictly worse Dredge-deck while still maintaining aspects of what makes Dredge scary. I think "terror with graveyard but a credible threat without" is what you should aim for; you'll see a lot of Leylines G2 and 3. I definitely think the discard package should be a bit bigger though; I'd like some number of Collective Brutality (also doubles as removal for DR but fairly pricy) or Thoughtseize (seems better than Inquisition in 99% of the cases), using 7-8 slots. Also, have you found any trouble with the reduced discard package? Lack of Burning Inquiries reduces the number of explosive T1s you can have requiring two cards instead of one, though there's much to be said over controlling your draws. Having all the engine spells cause card disadvantage in the strict sense of the word feels a bit annoying though, which is the advantage of Goblin Lore and Control of the Court; random but CA neutral. Modern testers consistently report those cards to be performing above expectation so perhaps there's something to the random build of the deck.

    EDIT: Though Tasigur seems almost strictly worse than Angler. In a world of Reality Smashers, Tarmogoyfs, Anglers and company 4/5 is so much worse than 5/5 and a deck with 15 lands and little lategame isn't particularly interested in Tasigur's ability. I'd probably just run more engine cards in those slots instead though.

  3. #43

    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    I like this list. It feels like it has enough advantages to not be a strictly worse Dredge-deck while still maintaining aspects of what makes Dredge scary. I think "terror with graveyard but a credible threat without" is what you should aim for; you'll see a lot of Leylines G2 and 3. I definitely think the discard package should be a bit bigger though; I'd like some number of Collective Brutality (also doubles as removal for DR but fairly pricy) or Thoughtseize (seems better than Inquisition in 99% of the cases), using 7-8 slots. Also, have you found any trouble with the reduced discard package? Lack of Burning Inquiries reduces the number of explosive T1s you can have requiring two cards instead of one, though there's much to be said over controlling your draws. Having all the engine spells cause card disadvantage in the strict sense of the word feels a bit annoying though, which is the advantage of Goblin Lore and Control of the Court; random but CA neutral. Modern testers consistently report those cards to be performing above expectation so perhaps there's something to the random build of the deck.

    EDIT: Though Tasigur seems almost strictly worse than Angler. In a world of Reality Smashers, Tarmogoyfs, Anglers and company 4/5 is so much worse than 5/5 and a deck with 15 lands and little lategame isn't particularly interested in Tasigur's ability. I'd probably just run more engine cards in those slots instead though.

    I feel like you are correct where it could use more of a discard package. I also see your point, but also my friend's point about Tasigur. He stated that Karakas is huge while playing him since he's legendary. I wanted to take away the randomness from the modern version, and more or less control what I am discarding with this build. I really have not had any trouble yet where I have had hollow ones in my hand and was unable to cast him. I would think that taking out both tasigur's, and adding a 3rd gurmag, and a 4th Cabal Therpay may be beneficial. Perhaps I could go down to 1 Anger, and some number of Forked bolt for better removal? I also think that maybe Daze would be an option, as it would potentially allow me an alternative way to play lands for bloodghast triggers.

  4. #44

    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    I don't really like Lotus Petal in this deck - I don't think it can handle the card disadvantage and the upside of getting a bloodghast in play when your opponent is at 20 seems minimal at best.

    I've played this deck a lot in modern and let me tell you- discarding 2 is a world of a difference from discarding 3. I understand people wanting to get away from burning inquiry as its card disadvantage and other random discard but I honestly don't see how the deck functions without a critical mass of discard 3+ spells. Also churning through cards is very important.

    I think the core of the deck revolves around the following cards

    4 faithless looting (IMO not replaceable by careful study. If you want to run grixis thats fine. But being able to flash it back is extremely important to give your deck card velocity)
    4 Goblin Lore
    4 street wraith
    4 hollow one
    4 delve dudes
    6-8 bloodghast / phoenix / other value creature to discard (I'm struggling on a number for the recurring creatures, but obviously a critical mass is important)
    4 Cabal Therapy

    If I were to convert the deck to legacy the first card I would put in would be 4 cabal therapies. Obviously you would want to include gitaxian probe after that, but I'm not actually sure the deck wants that, as its not discarding cards. It may be too good not to play, though.

    I think the following cards are powerful enough to be considered for a legacy shell-

    Undiscovered Paradise

    Attunement
    Breakthrough (Mana intensive)
    Careful Study
    Magus of the Bazaar (in conjunction with fast mana or Anger)
    Read the Runes
    Tolarian Winds

    Anger
    Control the Court (lol buyout)
    Firestorm

    Dack Fayden

    Ashen Ghoul
    Chain Smog
    Tortured Existence (Mana intensive)
    Entomb (decent utility with Anger, cabal therapy, and your other value graveyard dudes)

  5. #45
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    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    I really like the idea of this deck. I'd be tempted to do something like the below:

    2 Anger
    3 Badlands
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Careful Study
    4 Faithless Looting
    2 Flamewake Phoenix
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Gurmag Angler
    4 Hollow One
    3 Lightning Bolt
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island

    A friend pointed out that DRS is a beating and isn't a fan of the 2/2 split with Anger and Pheonix. Test hands have proved a little clunky so far, but I'd appreciate your thoughts.
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  6. #46

    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeedave View Post
    I really like the idea of this deck. I'd be tempted to do something like the below:

    2 Anger
    3 Badlands
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Careful Study
    4 Faithless Looting
    2 Flamewake Phoenix
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Gurmag Angler
    4 Hollow One
    3 Lightning Bolt
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island

    A friend pointed out that DRS is a beating and isn't a fan of the 2/2 split with Anger and Pheonix. Test hands have proved a little clunky so far, but I'd appreciate your thoughts.
    My current list is below. I still really like lotus petal in this build. There are games where I had 2 hollow ones in hand, cycled 2 street wraith's, played a land, and lotus petal and was able to cast both hollow ones turn one. Other games just using lotus petal to help dig for bloodghast and prized amalgam to put into the Graveyard before playing a land is huge. It also allows you to cast 2 looting spells turn 1.
    Correct sequencing is crucial for this deck. You will also want to make sure you prioritize casting cabal therapy turn 1 if you have probe (unless you have an absolutely explosive hand).
    Save your bolts for DRS. They should be your primary targets for bolt and / or therapy. I will also be testing with some number of Firestorms in the main and side.

    Spells: (20)
    4 - Faithless Looting
    4 - Careful Study
    4 - Gitaxian Probe
    4 - Lightning Bolt
    4 - Cabal Therapy

    Artifacts: (4)
    4 - Lotus Petal

    Creatures: (21)
    4 - Street Wraith
    3 - Gurmag Angler
    4 - Hollow One
    3 - Flamewake Phoenix
    4 - Bloodghast
    3 - Prized Amalgam

    Lands: (15)
    4 - Polluted Delta
    4 - Bloodstained Mire
    2 - Underground Sea
    3 - Volcanic Island
    2 - Badlands

    SB: (15)
    2 - Silent Gravestone
    2 - Pyroblast
    1 - REB
    2 - Diabolic Edict
    2 - Abrade
    2 - flusterstorm
    2 - surgical extraction
    2 - Invasive Surgery

  7. #47

    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    If you're worried about bloodghast triggers, why not just play fetches and undiscovered paradise? Could even play some number of dakmor salvages. I just don't see why this deck would want the card disadvantage of Lotus Petal and remain convinced the deck cannot handle it in addition to all the looting effects.

  8. #48

    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    If you're worried about bloodghast triggers, why not just play fetches and undiscovered paradise? Could even play some number of dakmor salvages. I just don't see why this deck would want the card disadvantage of Lotus Petal and remain convinced the deck cannot handle it in addition to all the looting effects.
    This deck plays 8 fetchlands already. I was contemplating a 9th though... Undiscovered would be okay, but I think fetches and duals are just better. I am not "worried" about the bloodghast triggers. I have no problem getting them out now. The reason is to speed the clock up 1 turn. This deck needs to be fast and pound the opponent with an overwhelming number of power on the board, so it can have lethal on turn 3 or 4. In order to do that turn 1 bloodghast with either a 2nd bloodghast, or an amalgam will help with the pressure. That goes without saying that you can also hit a hollow one, and potentially have 9-10 power on the board turn one. You have no idea how many cards you can chew through on turn one until you sleeve up this deck and try it. There are games where I can play a hollow one or 2, and an angler on turn 1, because it is not uncommon to see about 12 -15 cards on turn 1 through all of your filtering.

    The lotus petals serve multiple functions.
    1. Fast mana to accelerate your turn 1 discard effects
    2. Fuels the graveyard for angler
    3. helps support additional mana when needed for the already short mana base.

  9. #49
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    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    Almost forgot about this deck...

    I think turbo hollow one decks are extremely well positioned right now. Anyone tried anything? I just 3-2'd a league with a GR version. Vengevine is supercharged now that DRS is gone. But combo ate my lunch.

  10. #50

    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    How is Vengevine "turbo-charged" right now? With DRS gone, Surgical Extraction is going to get bolstered in more sideboards because the incidental graveyard hate that could be leveraged is now gone.

    And with Reanimator poised to return, so will other forms of hate out of sideboards.

  11. #51
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    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    How is Vengevine "turbo-charged" right now? With DRS gone, Surgical Extraction is going to get bolstered in more sideboards because the incidental graveyard hate that can be used is gone.

    And with Reanimator poised to return, so will other forms of hate out of sideboards.
    It's great in game 1, and in game 2 all the GY hate comes in that does nothing vs. 3 hollow ones on turn 1



    I do think that if they figure out to counter/surgical Faithless Looting we're in trouble, so have to go back to the U splash for redundancy with Faithless Looting. You also get ways to counter their hate cards.

  12. #52
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    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    Just run silent gravestones. Also shuts off snapcasters.
    -rob

  13. #53

    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    What's your latest list, if you don't mind me asking?

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    It's great in game 1, and in game 2 all the GY hate comes in that does nothing vs. 3 hollow ones on turn 1



    I do think that if they figure out to counter/surgical Faithless Looting we're in trouble, so have to go back to the U splash for redundancy with Faithless Looting. You also get ways to counter their hate cards.

  14. #54
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    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    Now that this thread is semi-active today, I'll throw my thoughts on this type of deck into the ring. I was working on a Grixis based list for about 2 months until the DRS ban. I haven't done much since as I'm busy toying around with GW maverick immediately post ban.

    Here's my latest list:

    4 Flameblade Adept
    4 Bloodghast
    1 Prized Amalgam
    1 Anger
    1 Wonder
    4 Hollow One
    4 Gurmag Angler

    2 Dack Fayden

    4 Burning Inquiry
    3 Careful Study
    2 Entomb
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Tolarian Winds

    3 Arid Mesa
    2 Badlands
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Cephalid Coliseum
    1 Island
    1 Mountain
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island

    SIDEBOARD

    4 Thoughtsieze
    2 Abrade
    2 Price of Progress
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Silent Gravestone
    3 Bitterblossom

    I wanted to go with non-random discard, and the core idea of the deck is to leverage Tolarian Winds to max value. So ideal sequence would be T1 Adept, into T2 Tolarian for 4 or 5...swing for unblockable 5 or 6 dmg and drop a Hollow One 2nd main. Tolarian also makes a T3 Angler pretty easy to do. Anger/Wonder are to break board stalls with the 2 entomb tutor package, and the Amalgam is another tutor target for extra value before getting a bloodghast out of the yard.

    Non-random was the goal, but I ended up settling on using Burning Inquiry despite this because the pseudo removal on them proved to be more than worth the chance of losing a playable angler/HO.

    Sideboard will need work in a post DRS world. My immediate thoughts are that it should be able to play through a surgical, etc, so no longer a need for the Gravestones. Price of Progress was a test on extra reach for the kill, but probably not what's most needed anymore. Given the deck easily makes Goyf 4/5 or higher by T3, more ways to deal with that are needed...probably Big Game Hunters are where I'll start. I'm also going to have to look for a few more good options that aren't GY dependent. Other madness creatures, or such that will help give some game under a RIP, etc. Also, haven't played against much combo, so not sure if the 4 thoughtsieze would be enough...maybe more against combo.

    Anyway, just thought I'd share. Any thoughts/questions are welcome!

  15. #55
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    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    Quote Originally Posted by maxtopig View Post
    What's your latest list, if you don't mind me asking?
    Same as post 22 but with blood moon, edge of autumn and nostalgic dreams instead of firestorm and sudden shock. The moon plan isn't as good anymore though now that Grixis is on the outs so that's getting cut. Will probably go back to RUG.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Just run silent gravestones. Also shuts off snapcasters.
    Very true, and I don't think I'll be doing the loam thing so this could work.

    Will force me to run Tormod's Crypt as my own grave hate but I think that's fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by deragun View Post
    Here's my latest list:
    looks cool. I know I should probably play black in the deck but Vengevine is so satisfying. Maybe a BUG version with VV, bloodghast and Amalgam could work. You lose the Flameblade plan but there's always Drake Haven. Or Wharf Infiltrator!

  16. #56

    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    so anyway

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  17. #57

    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    I always want to put cards like Library of Leng and Call to the Netherworld in decks with bulk self-discard effects.

  18. #58
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    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    looks cool. I know I should probably play black in the deck but Vengevine is so satisfying. Maybe a BUG version with VV, bloodghast and Amalgam could work. You lose the Flameblade plan but there's always Drake Haven. Or Wharf Infiltrator!
    I only play paper, and don't have vengevines, so I never deeply considered the green side of this archetype. However, wouldn't a BUG version with Bloodghast and Amalgam be a lot of hard to actually cast creatures that would make VV much harder to pull off? I always assumed a workable VV version would require fewer other 'return to battlefield' creatures on top of Basking Rootwalla to have enough options for VV.

    I'll have to keep Drake Haven in mind though. I generally was trying to make the deck fully function off of only 2 lands, but ended up trying out Dack anyway. That seems like another very interesting 3 drop for my version, but it would be a bit slow as I'd almost never be able to drop it AND get a token off it same turn.


    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    I always want to put cards like Library of Leng and Call to the Netherworld in decks with bulk self-discard effects.
    Never really considered Library before, that could be interesting...but seems like a maxed out random discard version would benefit most from that. Call was in my original builds, but just didn't seem to do enough. Anglers are only real target, otherwise you'd have to start running Tasigurs for more targets but that much delve really cancels Coliseum's utility and Coliseum is a much needed giant growth for Adept to push through lethal. Calling back a bloodghast, while ok in pure CA terms, just didn't work out well in my testing.

  19. #59

    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    Quote Originally Posted by deragun View Post
    ...
    Never really considered Library before, that could be interesting...but seems like a maxed out random discard version would benefit most from that. Call was in my original builds, but just didn't seem to do enough. Anglers are only real target, otherwise you'd have to start running Tasigurs for more targets but that much delve really cancels Coliseum's utility and Coliseum is a much needed giant growth for Adept to push through lethal. Calling back a bloodghast, while ok in pure CA terms, just didn't work out well in my testing.
    I'm not sure either idea is particularly good in practice.

    Library can also do work with full hand discard like Tolarian Winds. That said, I imagine that most of the time Noxious Revival would to the same thing, but better, most of the time.

    To make Call to the Netherworld make sense you want 12+ black creatures that you're happy to return, but Street Wraith and Gurmag Angler only gets you to 8.

  20. #60
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    Re: Hollow One Controls the Courts

    just spitballing here, are there advantages to playing this over a simple reanimator or dredge? If the goal is to capitalize on delve cards you are going through an awful lot of trouble to just get an angler into play for cheap and its not a game breaking card. If the deck had a way to combat combo decks it might just be nice as a recursive midrange deck but its really lacking here.
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