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Thread: [DECK]Death Cloud

  1. #1
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    [DECK]Death Cloud

    I thought there was a thread for Death Cloud in here already...apparently not! One of the ways I think the format will change with Bloodbraid Elf and Jace back in the format is to speed up with more aggressive decks. Aggressively setting up the board in the early turns sets the stage for something like Death Cloud to fuck the format sideways; block with STE, ramp into Damnation/Death Cloud. The Death Cloud ramp concept is good against both control and agro decks, with an obvious weakness for specific combo decks (storm, dredge off the top of my head.) Those seem to be manageable post board. I have always been on the fringes of Modern, so this deck is definitely one I will be tinkering with in the coming months. If it does well enough I might even take it to a March Modern tournament locally.

    Without a real primer set up yet I'll just post a starting list, one that could easily be adjusted depending on how the format shakes out.

    4x Sakura Tribe Elder
    4x Kitchen Finks
    1x Eternal Witness
    2x Thragtusk
    1x Grave Titan
    3x Thoughtseize
    3x Inquisition of Kozilek
    3x Garruk Wildspeaker
    3x Death Cloud
    2x Maelstrom Pulse
    2x Abrupt Decay
    3x Fatal Push
    2x Liliana of the Veil
    1x Damnation
    1x Harmonize

    2x Hissing Quagmire
    4x Treetop Village
    3x Urborg
    4x Verdant Catacombs
    2x Overgrown Tomb
    2x Blooming Marsh
    3x Forest
    3x Swamp
    2x Ghost Quarter

    Sideboard
    3x Scavenging Ooze
    2x Nihil Spellbomb
    2x Crime/Punishment
    3x Wrench Mind
    3x Fulminator Mage
    2x Creeping Corrosion


    Early interaction with Thoughtseize, Fatal Push, and Elders ramping. Mid-game of Kitchen Finks, Liliana, Pulses, Garruks, Damnation, Harmonize, and Thragtusk. Hay-makers with Death Cloud and Grave Titan.

    Early thoughts: might need more mana-ramping to make the deck more powerful, Life from the Loam may need to be available in some number, and ways to deal with PW's might need to be increased (Pithing Needle, Vampire Hexmage, etc.)

    The deck hasn't changed in years but I think some of the newer cards (Fatal Push, Hissing Quagmire, Blooming Marsh) could make a big enough impact to make it playable again. I may be missing some obscure tech also, but that will need some research. Not sure about Gaze of Granite just yet, and Reaper of the Wilds might be a shade too janky.

    Hoping for some comments and input, especially from damionblackgear!
    Brainstorm Realist

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  2. #2

    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    This was what I got into modern with years ago. However I think you'd be hard pressed to play this over something like BG Midrange for pure card advantage. Karn, and Scapeshift are better late game bombs than Grave Titan if you're wanting to go big, although the Death Cloud/Garruk combo is always great.

    I'm curious if Liliana the Last Hope would be better than Veil, able to rebuy STE/Eternal Witness/Swagtusk/Fulminator. The deck always felt lacking ramping up for a big Cloud to have it remanded or something lame. Her abilities don't interfere with holding up control cards, plus Liliana Ultimate after a Cloud is a death sentence. Last Hope doesn't really have as good ability to fight a control hand, but then she just wins the game with an ultimate anyway.

    I think one change would be Ghost Quarter to Field of Ruin, so you don't set yourself back with Ghost Quarter.

    You could potentially get into some weird new shit once you're looking at 6 drops instead of Titan, but it may still be the king at 6. Avoiding Fatal Push is nice with Path on the down swing.

    This seems like a natural deck for Collective Brutality as well - maybe 4x Thoughtseize, 2x Brutalities. Or drop Harmonize and a Pulse, keep 1cc discard at 6?
    Quote Originally Posted by Acclimation View Post
    I about died from laughter when I was watching my feature match and the commentators called Tinfins a difficult and challenging deck.

    I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Imagine the trauma of a man who has seen Mom into Crusader enough to mainboard three Cabal Pits.

  3. #3
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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    I agree with all of Claymore's comments:

    -You'd be better off playing BG midrange (or at least using its shell) than playing high cost bombs in Deathcloud
    -Liliana the Last Hope is better than Liliana of the Veil most of the time now, but especially in this deck (-2 after DC gets you back on the board faster, murdering tokens/Young Pyro/creature swarms by plusing is necessary if you want DC to actually kill everything).
    -Field of Ruin >> Ghost Quarter (you accept the losses of not being able to hit Eldrazi Temple/Tron before turn 3 because GQ is just not that great)
    -I'd say avoid all 6 drops
    -Collective Brutality is very good at being the flex removal/hand hate you need when you need it.

    So I played Death Cloud in a tournament a couple weeks ago and this was my list:

    3 Death Cloud
    3 Fatal Push
    3 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    2 Bitterblossom
    4 Thoughtseize
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Explore
    2 Primal Command
    1 Abrupt Decay
    2 Collective Brutality

    3 Azor's Gateway
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
    2 Courser of Kruphix
    4 Sakura-Tribe Elder

    3 Forest
    4 Swamp
    4 Overgrown Tomb
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Polluted Delta
    2 Hissing Quagmire
    2 Field of Ruin
    1 Twilight Mire

    I lost in 3 very close games to UWR control, that matchup is very hard if they ever get Search for Azcanta going. Bitterblossom singlehandedly won me the game I did win since other than that they just have a wall of counterspells and you'll never land anything big. I beat dredge since my sideboard had 13 things that replaced stuff like DC, Thoughtseize, Inquisition, etc. I then lost to Eldrazi in 3 games because I lost the die roll and they got turn 3 Reality Smasher both losses (on the play). This deck just can't handle some of the most broken things that Modern can throw out and relies on casting huge spells that you can't expect to land. Death Cloud doesn't stop broken decks at all (especially tron), and it can't land versus blue decks so you're left hoping that you'll get to late game against elves/affinity/midrange. I'm a huge fan of Primal Command for the big spell to land, grabbing E witness with it while bouncing a land of theirs on top can be busted, but Search for Azcanta does a good job of helping blue decks not get buried by it now.

    Too many non-blue decks run Lingering Souls/Faithless Looting so even if you do land the devastating DC that wipes all board and hand, being a slow BG deck means they could still just draw a land or two and win over the top.

    I'm as sad as everyone here, I have a foil miscut Death Cloud that I love showing off, but I think this is the worst time in the history of Modern to be playing this.

  4. #4
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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    I was coming at it from updating an older (Aug, 2017) list I saw on Salvation that I liked. (Link to thread post)

    2 Kitchen Finks
    2 Eternal Witness
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Grave Titan

    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Maelstrom Pulse
    2 Damnation
    1 Primal Command
    1 Dark Petition
    2 Deathcloud

    3 Abrupt Decay

    4 Utiopial Sprawl

    1 Liliana, The Last Hop
    3 Liliana of the Veil
    3 Garruk Wildspeaker
    1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Windswept Heath
    3 Overgrown Tomb
    4 Treetop Village
    3 Ghost Quarter
    2 Twilight Mire
    2 Swamp
    3 Forest

    Sideboard

    2 Collective Brutality
    2 Scavenging Ooze
    4 Fulminatior Mage
    1 Damnation
    2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
    4 Leyline of the Void


    This list has no Pushes and uses Utopia Sprawl in place of Tribe Elder but I agree with that. No you don't get the blocker but you function better with Garruk pre/post-Cloud. Both Liliana are used so you can take advantage of the legend rule (the list was made pre-rule change so that wasn't a factor before) and can finish with Obie Trice (Ob Nixilis) if things go bad.

    I like the diversity of the list but I think it could be improved upon. Things the post's author suggested were (again this was in August of 2017)...

    -1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
    -1 Dark Petition
    +1 Death Cloud
    +1 Dismember/Murderous Cut


    No major changes typically signifies to me that this person was either testing changes or had refined their deck quite a bit. That being said, I haven't tested this yet (with or without changes) so I can't put much more than theory to it. I will be giving it a try soon.

    An interesting thing that they brought up was using Smallpox inside the Death Cloud build to operate in a similar fashion as sinkhole (that list is in the same thread post). That list also only plays 3 creatures with a white splash for Lingering souls. I'm not sure if destabilizing the manabase would be worth it. The list they sited was piloted to a T8/54 finish by Komatsu Mashahito earlier than month.
    Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here

  5. #5

    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    I tested a similar shell (GB Midrange/Ramp) except the payoff card was the 5 mana curse that gives your opponent a different curse every turn
    With Cruel Reality it provides a pretty reliable win condition in a lot of situations and doesn't need as much setup as Death Cloud (where you need some way to take advantage of the fact that it's symmetrical)

    I thought it was decent, the immediate impact of Death Cloud is probably better against Tron and Combo though
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 02-18-2018 at 11:54 PM.

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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    Cool discussion, will jump back in with something soon.

    I was just throwing out a list, so thanks all for giving some great perspective.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  7. #7

    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    The original Modern Cloud lists didn't have Life from the Loam plus cycling lands as an option, so I'm not sure if that's something of interest. The stuff you can buy back is limited, Field of Ruin and maybe Blighted Bog or whatever (4B: Opponent sacs a creature) but Loam would play well with Raven's Crime in control matchups.

    Maybe for the sideboard.

    It would also work well alongside Smallpox.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acclimation View Post
    I about died from laughter when I was watching my feature match and the commentators called Tinfins a difficult and challenging deck.

    I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Imagine the trauma of a man who has seen Mom into Crusader enough to mainboard three Cabal Pits.

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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    I think without Barren Moor/Tranquil Thicket the loam plan suffers. There are some off-color duals that can be cycled, but I'm not sure that's worth it.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    Is a singleton Liliana, Heretical Healer too cute?

    Turn 2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    Turn 3 Liliana, Heretical Healer
    - sac Steve, ramp a basic
    - flip Lili, get a 2/2 zombie
    - minus 2 Liliana, Defiant Necromancer to return Steve

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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    The issue i see with the cloud lists is everyone else seems to play aggresive strategies, which will put a clock on this deck. I dont see green as being a great splash option, especially post board games where your opponent sides in shit to fight your non creature spells and you side in fulminator mage? Arnt you already losing if manlands have enough to get active?

    Can you try splashing something else tech worthy against the metagame? Say white?

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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    I think Green is a base color for Deathcloud strategies, not a splash color...
    You need a way to get ahead with lands/planeswalkers early so you are left with a board after resolving Deathcloud.

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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    Green is 100% necessary to this deck for ramping into extra lands alone. Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk are incredibly important because you are left with attackers after a big Cloud.

    I kinda like the Heretical Healer idea. It fits on curve with STE and even has lifelink, making her not awful. Ultimate + Death Cloud would be insane! I also really like the Courser of Kruphix idea, that seems VERY good. With decks getting more aggressive the land drop triggers and 2/4 body are incredibly relevant. I will be working in some number of those in my list. I'll update again in a little while. I've only done a small number of games, like 4-5 with the OP list. It definitely needs work! A way to get more lands is primary goal (Courser is part of that) so it might be necessary to get something like Oath of Nissa, Explore, Rampant Growth, or Utopia Sprawl. I think with Finks and Courser in the mix Primal Command becomes a little less needed, but the tempo + tutor can be really backbreaking in the right circumstances. I wonder if 5 is too much considering it would probably be better as a Thragtusk in most instances.
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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Green is 100% necessary to this deck for ramping into extra lands alone. Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk are incredibly important because you are left with attackers after a big Cloud.

    I kinda like the Heretical Healer idea. It fits on curve with STE and even has lifelink, making her not awful. Ultimate + Death Cloud would be insane! I also really like the Courser of Kruphix idea, that seems VERY good. With decks getting more aggressive the land drop triggers and 2/4 body are incredibly relevant. I will be working in some number of those in my list. I'll update again in a little while. I've only done a small number of games, like 4-5 with the OP list. It definitely needs work! A way to get more lands is primary goal (Courser is part of that) so it might be necessary to get something like Oath of Nissa, Explore, Rampant Growth, or Utopia Sprawl. I think with Finks and Courser in the mix Primal Command becomes a little less needed, but the tempo + tutor can be really backbreaking in the right circumstances. I wonder if 5 is too much considering it would probably be better as a Thragtusk in most instances.
    Courser + Explore were a great synergy in the deck. Azor's Gateway is also a great way to burn through your top cards along with Courser to get some real card advantage going, and it survives the biggest Death Clouds.

    Thragtusk has always been underwhelming in my eyes. If your 5 drop doesn't survive a bolt or have evasion to get through their Lingering Souls/Pyromancer then I hate to think how much more you'll have to pay for something that does. I usually play 1 in the sideboard for the big life gain swing against burn if I happen to land a Primal Command, but usually Witness is still better (blank their draw + gain 7 is enough to buy you 2 turns almost always).

    Heretical Healer I've tried before and it's just too cute. Not only does it force you into saving STE activation for turn 3 (which is frequently worse than you'd expect), it can even be killed in response to the flip trigger. After that, it has no relevant way to kill creatures, making it the worst of the 3 cmc Liliana choices, even if you can manage to flip her.

  14. #14
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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Courser + Explore were a great synergy in the deck. Azor's Gateway is also a great way to burn through your top cards along with Courser to get some real card advantage going, and it survives the biggest Death Clouds.

    Thragtusk has always been underwhelming in my eyes. If your 5 drop doesn't survive a bolt or have evasion to get through their Lingering Souls/Pyromancer then I hate to think how much more you'll have to pay for something that does. I usually play 1 in the sideboard for the big life gain swing against burn if I happen to land a Primal Command, but usually Witness is still better (blank their draw + gain 7 is enough to buy you 2 turns almost always).

    Heretical Healer I've tried before and it's just too cute. Not only does it force you into saving STE activation for turn 3 (which is frequently worse than you'd expect), it can even be killed in response to the flip trigger. After that, it has no relevant way to kill creatures, making it the worst of the 3 cmc Liliana choices, even if you can manage to flip her.
    I was looking at tusk as an uber finks, giving value and leaving a 3/3 behind.

    I'll mess around with courser/explore. I don't have the gateways, so that will have to wait.
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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    Green is 100% necessary to this deck for ramping into extra lands alone. Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk are incredibly important because you are left with attackers after a big Cloud.
    The first sentence is unfounded. In a format where others are doing busted things, your playing ramp to play a busted sorcery, (that doesnt win you the game.) The plainswalkers are fine, but if they are the reason your winning the game then why not just play plainswalker control?

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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    Quote Originally Posted by mossivo1986 View Post
    The first sentence is unfounded. In a format where others are doing busted things, your playing ramp to play a busted sorcery, (that doesnt win you the game.) The plainswalkers are fine, but if they are the reason your winning the game then why not just play plainswalker control?
    You've obviously never played with Death Cloud if you think a DC = 3-4 doesn't win you the game. Regardless, it's a fucking ramp deck. I would love to hear how you would ramp mana effectively outside of green. Yes Death Cloud is a focus, but ramping into Primal Command, Thragtusk, Grave Titan, and having plenty of lands to activate man-lands is what the deck does. I've won a ton of games without Death Cloud, but when I have a favorable position (6+ mana) to cast it, it wins the game.
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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    So I sleeved up Death Clouds last night to start paper testing, settling on this list for now:

    4x Sakura Tribe Elder
    3x Kitchen Finks
    1x Courser of Kruphix
    1x Thragtusk
    1x Eternal Witness
    1x Shriekmaw
    1x Grave Titan

    3x Search for Tomorrow
    3x Thoughtseize
    3x Inquisition of Kozilek
    3x Fatal Push
    1x Abrupt Decay
    2x Maelstrom Pulse
    3x Death Cloud
    1x Damnation
    2x Liliana of the Veil
    3x Garruk Wildspeaker

    4x Verdant Catacombs
    2x Overgrown Tomb
    2x Blooming Marsh
    2x Hissing Quagmire
    2x Treetop Village
    4x Forest
    4x Swamp
    3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Ghost Quarter


    I don't have the Primal Commands right now, but I will definitely want at least 1 of them. I will probably drop the a Search for Tomorrow to do that. I think playing singletons of Thragtusk/Witness/Grave Titan is good along with Primal Command. The tempo and life boost it gives, even at 5 mana, is really very good for a deck like this that needs a critical mass of its engine pieces (lands, ways to get them, ways to utilize them.) Primal Command is a way to deal with Jace as well (put it on top, then shuffle it away.)

    Sideboard isn't settled, just a mix of Fulminator Mage, Wrench Mind, Scavenging Ooze, and Creeping Corrosion for now. This is my list of 'maybe' cards for both the main/side:

    Tribute to Hunger
    Crime/Punishment
    Gaze of Granite
    Explore
    Noxious Revival
    Profane Command
    Azor's Gateway
    Life from the Loam
    Ghost Quarter (more copies)
    Dark Petition
    Reaper of the Wilds
    Harmonize
    Thrun, the Last Troll
    Boseiju, Who Shelters all


    I think Dark Petition and Primal Command are fighting for the same slots, Petition obviously being good (if Spell Mastery can be triggered) for fetching Liliana and Death Cloud. Primal Command obviously being good for fetching key singleton creatures that can grind the game out (Witness, Tusk, Shriekmaw, Grave Titan.)

    There's some janky stuff I would love to try out, like Reaper of the Wilds. It has pseudo-hexproof and creates value when stuff dies. The 4/5 for 4 mana is above the usual rate as well. Thrun may just be simply better. I would love to play Profane Command with Garruk, that's classic tech from Lorwyn standard where life swings could be like 10 due to giving 2-3 creatures fear and draining for 2-3 at the same time. I also love the Profane/Witness loop, but it's agonizingly slow. I think the deck already has some inevitability once Death Cloud resolves (if it does.)

    So I'm committed to Primal Command x1, maybe x2 if I can find a spot to squeeze it in (or find a card in there that underperforms.)
    Brainstorm Realist

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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    Im not looking to pick a fight on to ramp or not to ramp. Every color has access to it in the form of bauble and or signets, search for tommorow is significantly better and elder is fine.

    I do question tusk in the main for obvious pheonix ignition reasons, and also grave titan. Why is this better then beacon of creation? Beacon cant be path'd.

    I like the idea of going full ham post board with more witness and more plow against eldrazi, random jace.dec

    I also like a ub centric deathcloud with ub tezz jace arti rocks, damnation, deathclouds, singleton crucible? Fabricate? so much greed...

  19. #19

    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    If you want to ramp you can also use the Arbor Elf / Utopia Sprawl engine, not only do they work well with each other but Sprawl is also good with Garruk.
    You can go turn 1 Arbor Elf, Turn 2 Sprawl on basic Forest, tap for 2 mana, untap with Elf, 2 more mana, cast Garruk, untap 2 lands, cast a 3 drop.

    Arbor Elf makes the deck worse against opposing spot removal and it's a bit of a nonbo with your own Death Clouds, but I think the amount of Ghost Quarter in the format is going down due to the printing of Field of Ruin so at least Utopia Sprawl is a bit more resilient than it might have been in the past.

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    Re: [DECK]Death Cloud

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    If you want to ramp you can also use the Arbor Elf / Utopia Sprawl engine, not only do they work well with each other but Sprawl is also good with Garruk.
    You can go turn 1 Arbor Elf, Turn 2 Sprawl on basic Forest, tap for 2 mana, untap with Elf, 2 more mana, cast Garruk, untap 2 lands, cast a 3 drop.

    Arbor Elf makes the deck worse against opposing spot removal and it's a bit of a nonbo with your own Death Clouds, but I think the amount of Ghost Quarter in the format is going down due to the printing of Field of Ruin so at least Utopia Sprawl is a bit more resilient than it might have been in the past.
    Wild Growth?

    edit: Ooops, this is modern not legacy
    Abundant Growth and Unbridled Growth might be good if you want to smooth your mana production and your draws.

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