I thought there was a thread for Death Cloud in here already...apparently not! One of the ways I think the format will change with Bloodbraid Elf and Jace back in the format is to speed up with more aggressive decks. Aggressively setting up the board in the early turns sets the stage for something like Death Cloud to fuck the format sideways; block with STE, ramp into Damnation/Death Cloud. The Death Cloud ramp concept is good against both control and agro decks, with an obvious weakness for specific combo decks (storm, dredge off the top of my head.) Those seem to be manageable post board. I have always been on the fringes of Modern, so this deck is definitely one I will be tinkering with in the coming months. If it does well enough I might even take it to a March Modern tournament locally.
Without a real primer set up yet I'll just post a starting list, one that could easily be adjusted depending on how the format shakes out.
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
4x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
2x Thragtusk
1x Grave Titan
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Death Cloud
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Fatal Push
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Damnation
1x Harmonize
2x Hissing Quagmire
4x Treetop Village
3x Urborg
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Ghost Quarter
Sideboard
3x Scavenging Ooze
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Crime/Punishment
3x Wrench Mind
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Creeping Corrosion
Early interaction with Thoughtseize, Fatal Push, and Elders ramping. Mid-game of Kitchen Finks, Liliana, Pulses, Garruks, Damnation, Harmonize, and Thragtusk. Hay-makers with Death Cloud and Grave Titan.
Early thoughts: might need more mana-ramping to make the deck more powerful, Life from the Loam may need to be available in some number, and ways to deal with PW's might need to be increased (Pithing Needle, Vampire Hexmage, etc.)
The deck hasn't changed in years but I think some of the newer cards (Fatal Push, Hissing Quagmire, Blooming Marsh) could make a big enough impact to make it playable again. I may be missing some obscure tech also, but that will need some research. Not sure about Gaze of Granite just yet, and Reaper of the Wilds might be a shade too janky.
Hoping for some comments and input, especially from damionblackgear!
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
This was what I got into modern with years ago. However I think you'd be hard pressed to play this over something like BG Midrange for pure card advantage. Karn, and Scapeshift are better late game bombs than Grave Titan if you're wanting to go big, although the Death Cloud/Garruk combo is always great.
I'm curious if Liliana the Last Hope would be better than Veil, able to rebuy STE/Eternal Witness/Swagtusk/Fulminator. The deck always felt lacking ramping up for a big Cloud to have it remanded or something lame. Her abilities don't interfere with holding up control cards, plus Liliana Ultimate after a Cloud is a death sentence. Last Hope doesn't really have as good ability to fight a control hand, but then she just wins the game with an ultimate anyway.
I think one change would be Ghost Quarter to Field of Ruin, so you don't set yourself back with Ghost Quarter.
You could potentially get into some weird new shit once you're looking at 6 drops instead of Titan, but it may still be the king at 6. Avoiding Fatal Push is nice with Path on the down swing.
This seems like a natural deck for Collective Brutality as well - maybe 4x Thoughtseize, 2x Brutalities. Or drop Harmonize and a Pulse, keep 1cc discard at 6?
I agree with all of Claymore's comments:
-You'd be better off playing BG midrange (or at least using its shell) than playing high cost bombs in Deathcloud
-Liliana the Last Hope is better than Liliana of the Veil most of the time now, but especially in this deck (-2 after DC gets you back on the board faster, murdering tokens/Young Pyro/creature swarms by plusing is necessary if you want DC to actually kill everything).
-Field of Ruin >> Ghost Quarter (you accept the losses of not being able to hit Eldrazi Temple/Tron before turn 3 because GQ is just not that great)
-I'd say avoid all 6 drops
-Collective Brutality is very good at being the flex removal/hand hate you need when you need it.
So I played Death Cloud in a tournament a couple weeks ago and this was my list:
3 Death Cloud
3 Fatal Push
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Bitterblossom
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Explore
2 Primal Command
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Azor's Gateway
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Hissing Quagmire
2 Field of Ruin
1 Twilight Mire
I lost in 3 very close games to UWR control, that matchup is very hard if they ever get Search for Azcanta going. Bitterblossom singlehandedly won me the game I did win since other than that they just have a wall of counterspells and you'll never land anything big. I beat dredge since my sideboard had 13 things that replaced stuff like DC, Thoughtseize, Inquisition, etc. I then lost to Eldrazi in 3 games because I lost the die roll and they got turn 3 Reality Smasher both losses (on the play). This deck just can't handle some of the most broken things that Modern can throw out and relies on casting huge spells that you can't expect to land. Death Cloud doesn't stop broken decks at all (especially tron), and it can't land versus blue decks so you're left hoping that you'll get to late game against elves/affinity/midrange. I'm a huge fan of Primal Command for the big spell to land, grabbing E witness with it while bouncing a land of theirs on top can be busted, but Search for Azcanta does a good job of helping blue decks not get buried by it now.
Too many non-blue decks run Lingering Souls/Faithless Looting so even if you do land the devastating DC that wipes all board and hand, being a slow BG deck means they could still just draw a land or two and win over the top.
I'm as sad as everyone here, I have a foil miscut Death Cloud that I love showing off, but I think this is the worst time in the history of Modern to be playing this.
I was coming at it from updating an older (Aug, 2017) list I saw on Salvation that I liked. (Link to thread post)
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Damnation
1 Primal Command
1 Dark Petition
2 Deathcloud
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Utiopial Sprawl
1 Liliana, The Last Hop
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Treetop Village
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Twilight Mire
2 Swamp
3 Forest
Sideboard
2 Collective Brutality
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Fulminatior Mage
1 Damnation
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
4 Leyline of the Void
This list has no Pushes and uses Utopia Sprawl in place of Tribe Elder but I agree with that. No you don't get the blocker but you function better with Garruk pre/post-Cloud. Both Liliana are used so you can take advantage of the legend rule (the list was made pre-rule change so that wasn't a factor before) and can finish with Obie Trice (Ob Nixilis) if things go bad.
I like the diversity of the list but I think it could be improved upon. Things the post's author suggested were (again this was in August of 2017)...
-1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
-1 Dark Petition
+1 Death Cloud
+1 Dismember/Murderous Cut
No major changes typically signifies to me that this person was either testing changes or had refined their deck quite a bit. That being said, I haven't tested this yet (with or without changes) so I can't put much more than theory to it. I will be giving it a try soon.
An interesting thing that they brought up was using Smallpox inside the Death Cloud build to operate in a similar fashion as sinkhole (that list is in the same thread post). That list also only plays 3 creatures with a white splash for Lingering souls. I'm not sure if destabilizing the manabase would be worth it. The list they sited was piloted to a T8/54 finish by Komatsu Mashahito earlier than month.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
I tested a similar shell (GB Midrange/Ramp) except the payoff card was the 5 mana curse that gives your opponent a different curse every turn
With Cruel Reality it provides a pretty reliable win condition in a lot of situations and doesn't need as much setup as Death Cloud (where you need some way to take advantage of the fact that it's symmetrical)
I thought it was decent, the immediate impact of Death Cloud is probably better against Tron and Combo though
Last edited by kombatkiwi; 02-18-2018 at 11:54 PM.
Cool discussion, will jump back in with something soon.
I was just throwing out a list, so thanks all for giving some great perspective.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
The original Modern Cloud lists didn't have Life from the Loam plus cycling lands as an option, so I'm not sure if that's something of interest. The stuff you can buy back is limited, Field of Ruin and maybe Blighted Bog or whatever (4B: Opponent sacs a creature) but Loam would play well with Raven's Crime in control matchups.
Maybe for the sideboard.
It would also work well alongside Smallpox.
I think without Barren Moor/Tranquil Thicket the loam plan suffers. There are some off-color duals that can be cycled, but I'm not sure that's worth it.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Is a singleton Liliana, Heretical Healer too cute?
Turn 2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
Turn 3 Liliana, Heretical Healer
- sac Steve, ramp a basic
- flip Lili, get a 2/2 zombie
- minus 2 Liliana, Defiant Necromancer to return Steve
The issue i see with the cloud lists is everyone else seems to play aggresive strategies, which will put a clock on this deck. I dont see green as being a great splash option, especially post board games where your opponent sides in shit to fight your non creature spells and you side in fulminator mage? Arnt you already losing if manlands have enough to get active?
Can you try splashing something else tech worthy against the metagame? Say white?
I think Green is a base color for Deathcloud strategies, not a splash color...
You need a way to get ahead with lands/planeswalkers early so you are left with a board after resolving Deathcloud.
Green is 100% necessary to this deck for ramping into extra lands alone. Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk are incredibly important because you are left with attackers after a big Cloud.
I kinda like the Heretical Healer idea. It fits on curve with STE and even has lifelink, making her not awful. Ultimate + Death Cloud would be insane! I also really like the Courser of Kruphix idea, that seems VERY good. With decks getting more aggressive the land drop triggers and 2/4 body are incredibly relevant. I will be working in some number of those in my list. I'll update again in a little while. I've only done a small number of games, like 4-5 with the OP list. It definitely needs work! A way to get more lands is primary goal (Courser is part of that) so it might be necessary to get something like Oath of Nissa, Explore, Rampant Growth, or Utopia Sprawl. I think with Finks and Courser in the mix Primal Command becomes a little less needed, but the tempo + tutor can be really backbreaking in the right circumstances. I wonder if 5 is too much considering it would probably be better as a Thragtusk in most instances.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Courser + Explore were a great synergy in the deck. Azor's Gateway is also a great way to burn through your top cards along with Courser to get some real card advantage going, and it survives the biggest Death Clouds.
Thragtusk has always been underwhelming in my eyes. If your 5 drop doesn't survive a bolt or have evasion to get through their Lingering Souls/Pyromancer then I hate to think how much more you'll have to pay for something that does. I usually play 1 in the sideboard for the big life gain swing against burn if I happen to land a Primal Command, but usually Witness is still better (blank their draw + gain 7 is enough to buy you 2 turns almost always).
Heretical Healer I've tried before and it's just too cute. Not only does it force you into saving STE activation for turn 3 (which is frequently worse than you'd expect), it can even be killed in response to the flip trigger. After that, it has no relevant way to kill creatures, making it the worst of the 3 cmc Liliana choices, even if you can manage to flip her.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
The first sentence is unfounded. In a format where others are doing busted things, your playing ramp to play a busted sorcery, (that doesnt win you the game.) The plainswalkers are fine, but if they are the reason your winning the game then why not just play plainswalker control?Green is 100% necessary to this deck for ramping into extra lands alone. Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk are incredibly important because you are left with attackers after a big Cloud.
You've obviously never played with Death Cloud if you think a DC = 3-4 doesn't win you the game. Regardless, it's a fucking ramp deck. I would love to hear how you would ramp mana effectively outside of green. Yes Death Cloud is a focus, but ramping into Primal Command, Thragtusk, Grave Titan, and having plenty of lands to activate man-lands is what the deck does. I've won a ton of games without Death Cloud, but when I have a favorable position (6+ mana) to cast it, it wins the game.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
So I sleeved up Death Clouds last night to start paper testing, settling on this list for now:
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Thragtusk
1x Eternal Witness
1x Shriekmaw
1x Grave Titan
3x Search for Tomorrow
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Fatal Push
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Death Cloud
1x Damnation
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Hissing Quagmire
2x Treetop Village
4x Forest
4x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Ghost Quarter
I don't have the Primal Commands right now, but I will definitely want at least 1 of them. I will probably drop the a Search for Tomorrow to do that. I think playing singletons of Thragtusk/Witness/Grave Titan is good along with Primal Command. The tempo and life boost it gives, even at 5 mana, is really very good for a deck like this that needs a critical mass of its engine pieces (lands, ways to get them, ways to utilize them.) Primal Command is a way to deal with Jace as well (put it on top, then shuffle it away.)
Sideboard isn't settled, just a mix of Fulminator Mage, Wrench Mind, Scavenging Ooze, and Creeping Corrosion for now. This is my list of 'maybe' cards for both the main/side:
Tribute to Hunger
Crime/Punishment
Gaze of Granite
Explore
Noxious Revival
Profane Command
Azor's Gateway
Life from the Loam
Ghost Quarter (more copies)
Dark Petition
Reaper of the Wilds
Harmonize
Thrun, the Last Troll
Boseiju, Who Shelters all
I think Dark Petition and Primal Command are fighting for the same slots, Petition obviously being good (if Spell Mastery can be triggered) for fetching Liliana and Death Cloud. Primal Command obviously being good for fetching key singleton creatures that can grind the game out (Witness, Tusk, Shriekmaw, Grave Titan.)
There's some janky stuff I would love to try out, like Reaper of the Wilds. It has pseudo-hexproof and creates value when stuff dies. The 4/5 for 4 mana is above the usual rate as well. Thrun may just be simply better. I would love to play Profane Command with Garruk, that's classic tech from Lorwyn standard where life swings could be like 10 due to giving 2-3 creatures fear and draining for 2-3 at the same time. I also love the Profane/Witness loop, but it's agonizingly slow. I think the deck already has some inevitability once Death Cloud resolves (if it does.)
So I'm committed to Primal Command x1, maybe x2 if I can find a spot to squeeze it in (or find a card in there that underperforms.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Im not looking to pick a fight on to ramp or not to ramp. Every color has access to it in the form of bauble and or signets, search for tommorow is significantly better and elder is fine.
I do question tusk in the main for obvious pheonix ignition reasons, and also grave titan. Why is this better then beacon of creation? Beacon cant be path'd.
I like the idea of going full ham post board with more witness and more plow against eldrazi, random jace.dec
I also like a ub centric deathcloud with ub tezz jace arti rocks, damnation, deathclouds, singleton crucible? Fabricate? so much greed...
If you want to ramp you can also use the Arbor Elf / Utopia Sprawl engine, not only do they work well with each other but Sprawl is also good with Garruk.
You can go turn 1 Arbor Elf, Turn 2 Sprawl on basic Forest, tap for 2 mana, untap with Elf, 2 more mana, cast Garruk, untap 2 lands, cast a 3 drop.
Arbor Elf makes the deck worse against opposing spot removal and it's a bit of a nonbo with your own Death Clouds, but I think the amount of Ghost Quarter in the format is going down due to the printing of Field of Ruin so at least Utopia Sprawl is a bit more resilient than it might have been in the past.
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