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Thread: Tireless Sultai

  1. #1
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    Tireless Sultai

    Tireless Sultai

    I named it Sultai since it feels more like playing standard Sultai then actual legacy.


    I only played this in three tournaments so far with the first untuned versions of the deck turning out poorly but since a major rehaul I finished 3-1 and 4-0 at out local legacy league.

    The game plan is to use the hand disruption early game while later being able to brainstorm it away in favor of threats. I have for a long time been playing pox and I feel that toxic deluge is a really good card right now but what you needed is to finish the game. Tireless tracker is in many aspects a 4 drops vs fair decks but so far it has worked out fine since it will straight up win against both fair and unfair decks in a relative quick fashion (even moreso then tnn) after hitting the battlefield.


    //Creatures
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    1 scavenging ooze
    1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    3 tireless tracker
    1 green sun's zenith

    //Planeswalkers
    1 liliana of the veil
    1 liliana, the last hope

    //Utility
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 inquisition of kozilek
    2 hymn to tourach

    //Board Interaction
    1 spell pierce
    3 fatal push
    3 Abrupt Decay

    1 maelstrom pulse
    2 toxic deluge

    //Lands
    1 Forest
    1 Island
    1 swamp
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea
    3 Bayou
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Polluted Delta
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Wasteland

    // Sideboard
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Extirpate
    1 diabolic edict
    1 engineered plague
    1 faerie macabre
    1 massacre
    1 murderous cut
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 negate
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    1 krosan grip
    1 vraska the unseen
    2 pithing needle




    The deck list originated from playing rock with trackers and leovold, but I figured a blue splash for more sideboard and also brainstorm might be what can let you get away with playing a bit to many discard and removal spells.

    What i haven't playtested yet vs is storm and I know from experience that just discard usually makes it though but I'm still unsure if 1 flusterstorm, 1 negate, 1 mindbreak trap and 1 spell pierce will do enough in addition to my 8 discard spells.
    I need to playtest more vs storm.


    So far my greatest success is against various kinds of Midrange decks especially ones playing TNN since it is a lategame cards that will die easily to my wrath effects while leaving my creatures safe from harm.


    Edit: I was looking in how to improve my deck and especially if I needed more tools to be viable vs Storm.

    Any potenital sideboard cards vs storm, blood moon stompy and esper blade are interesting for me since that are, I only play 1 green sun for now and I might cut it but any toolbox cards that can be searched for is of interest as well.
    Last edited by Toxboy; 02-25-2018 at 11:10 AM.
    My current Pox Loam list (updated 22 November 2016)

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

  2. #2
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    Re: Tireless Sultai

    22 lands is pretty high, particularly when the most you'll spend is 3 mana. Sylvan Library is a glaring omission. You're really not gaining anything by having Brainstorm/Leovold in this deck as compared to just play more green toolbox with a GSZ playset. Not to be too harsh here but your deck is between BUG NicFit, AggroLoam, Maverick, and Shardless BUG...but it finds a way to be worse variant than any of those. All these cards are independently good/fine/playable, but look like an agglomeration of essentially random effects that really only come together with a manabase that loses to Wasteland.

    Are you posting to look for advice on increasing consistency? It's important to know how blue is justified but Strix is omitted. When it comes to Tireless Tracker, it's a fine card but where is the Courser/Library and/or Magus of the Crucible?

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    Re: Tireless Sultai

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    22 lands is pretty high, particularly when the most you'll spend is 3 mana. Sylvan Library is a glaring omission. You're really not gaining anything by having Brainstorm/Leovold in this deck as compared to just play more green toolbox with a GSZ playset. Not to be too harsh here but your deck is between BUG NicFit, AggroLoam, Maverick, and Shardless BUG...but it finds a way to be worse variant than any of those. All these cards are independently good/fine/playable, but look like an agglomeration of essentially random effects that really only come together with a manabase that loses to Wasteland.

    Are you posting to look for advice on increasing consistency? It's important to know how blue is justified but Strix is omitted. When it comes to Tireless Tracker, it's a fine card but where is the Courser/Library and/or Magus of the Crucible?
    I actually forgot to post why I wanted to share but essentially I was looking in how to improve my deck and especially if I needed more tools to be viable vs Storm. The storm matchup primarily a sideboard thing, for now I had great success vs 4 color control and delver variants, which is big in my local metagame, I want to consistenly beat TNN decks before sideboard and after I wan't to be able to handle harder combo decks.

    I tried both courser and magus in the earliest version (also library but I forgot about it actually for the latest version) but they just don't impact the board except their ability which needs to win if landing.

    Considering Tracker is much a 4 drop in general vs fair decks I don't believe 22 lands is to much considering you both want to draw lands and play them even if you are out of fetchable lands with him in play. Considering being weak vs wasteland I play the same amount of sources more of my main colors as 4-color control with 3 basics I would assume that I'm fine vs wasteland but not great just as them.

    I focus on having brainstorm since it is not a card you want to play turn 1 on most cases anyway making it actually quite a nice splash but I dislike splashing threats I guess. I have considered baleful strix + library and since you are so low on most cards in the deck what would you cut for it?


    Edit: I can't prove or disprove that my deck is better or worse then the decks you mentioned yet so I can't really respond to that, I can try any tips you give me about card choices since I will have time to test and tune, but I will like to add that the inspiration of the deck is mainly being that of BUG Leovold decks but trying to play more of the anti creature cards because of the current IMO creature meta.
    My current Pox Loam list (updated 22 November 2016)

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

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    Re: Tireless Sultai

    Time for an update maybe? Playing in your league I noticed that you seem to be 13-3-0 with the deck and leading the league, right? Seems to merit an update. So, what seem to be your weak matchups? 4c Control is a good one I guess? Any further thoughts on the deck, could this work elsewhere? It's always nice to see a rogue deck work well.

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    Re: Tireless Sultai

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Time for an update maybe? Playing in your league I noticed that you seem to be 13-3-0 with the deck and leading the league, right? Seems to merit an update. So, what seem to be your weak matchups? 4c Control is a good one I guess? Any further thoughts on the deck, could this work elsewhere? It's always nice to see a rogue deck work well.
    The current statistic of the deck is 18-7-1
    with:
    {4-0}{3-1}{3-1}{3-1}{4-2}{1-2-1}
    In the tournaments, I would like some additional results before looking to much into it. it could just be the correct side of variance going my way. The draw was against a grixis delver who managed to chump with gurmag anglers to survive at 1 life, pointing out that there is some issues with closing out games.

    I would say the deck has some trouble dealing with to much aggression followed up by daze. Since you don't have fow some major tempoplays from delver can leave you a bit to much behind.

    The deck still seems to have some problems with planeswalkers and gurmag anglers from especially grixis delver is hard to handle. 4 color control seems to have some consistensy problems against the deck and especially tireless tracker is superior to all cards in their deck unless they can protect a jace.

    I still have not been playing vs storm so it's quite unclear how the matchup will play out, my current meta is creature infected with the most popular non creature threat being jace. I would recommend the deck for any metagame highly relying on TNN as their main threat since I have so far only lost to TNN when my opponent drew 3 in a from an empty hand and board.

    For future improvements
    I also figured out that I quite dislike sylvan library in the deck because you don't quite need to draw the extra cards vs any deck and the most common way to get punished is by tempoplays.

    The current thing im trying to improve is adding ponders for more chances to get to sideboard cards and a snapcaster mage for some more graveyard use so I can still recast my more important spells. I will be trying out submerge as an alternative to combat tempo decks. Leovold will most likely be added as a second copy and a tarmogoyf and scavenging ooze will probably leave as I am quite weak vs stoneforge decks sideboarding in rest in peace.

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    Re: Tireless Sultai

    I played another league tournament to the medium result of 2/2.

    I got a bit unlucky vs a delver deck being able to restrict me on lands and drawing all my 3 drops after sideboard while I sideboard out quite a few of them.(which I feel is the main way to lose with the deck vs delver)

    The other game I lost I feel that i got out sideboarded by a weird blue and taxes deck that managed to get enough value out of their cards and land a gideon one game and a winter orb next to lock me out.

    Land (22)

    3x Bayou
    3x misty rainforest
    1x Forest
    1x Island
    3x Polluted delta
    4x verdant catacombs
    1x Swamp
    1x Tropical Island
    2x Underground Sea
    3x Wasteland

    Instant (10)

    3x Abrupt Decay
    4x Brainstorm
    3x Fatal Push

    Sorcery (13)

    2x Hymn to Tourach
    2x Inquisition of Kozilek
    1x Maelstrom Pulse
    2x Ponder
    4x Thoughtseize
    2x Toxic Deluge

    Creature (13)

    4x Deathrite Shaman
    2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    1x Snapcaster Mage
    2x Tarmogoyf
    1 gurmag angler
    3x Tireless Tracker

    Planeswalker (2)

    1x Liliana of the Veil
    1x Liliana, the Last Hope

    Sideboard

    1x Diabolic Edict
    1x Engineered Plague
    1x Faerie Macabre
    1x Flusterstorm
    1x Krosan Grip
    1x Massacre
    1x Mindbreak Trap
    1x Murderous Cut
    1x Negate
    1x Pithing Needle
    1x Submerge
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x To the Slaughter
    1x Vraska the Unseen


    So the deck has started to perform more poorly, Still a positive result overall but I feel like you have a bit to few answers to delve creatures still while keeping the sideboard able to handle combo.
    I also played vs a gideon and wanted to try to add another edict in to the slaughter since it will also hit walkers if I assemble delerium. (now I have 4 reasonable answers to planeswalkers gideon after sideboard + negate and 4 thoughtseize)

    The current changes are for next week:
    I added another thoughtseize since I feel game 1 I want to be able to discard just about anything I can't answer easily with my mainboard. Leovold is still performing well and I even added another copy to have vs especially decks with swords to plowshares. The tarmogoyf felt better when I played green sun but that card is just awful vs delver that always could counter it to defeat the purpose of the card going into the lategame and it also makes people board in rest in peace leaving you to vulnerable to that card. I tried out strix and I am still torn if I should include it or not in the future. The card is really good but with fatal push and abrupt decay it still doesn't help with the tempo problems.

  7. #7

    Re: Tireless Sultai

    Cool list. I've been messing around with a similar BG-with-a-minor-blue-splash deck online recently and it's been doing pretty well, although I'm a bit more planeswalker heavy and am not running Tireless Trackers so this might not be the appropriate place to discuss it really :P.

    Dismember is useful vs delve threats while also being able to snag a turn one Deathrite. How have the Trackers been? (I sort-of feel like they'd be better in a more blue heavy build with a couple of Daze for the landfall trigger.)

    FWIW, my build, 'Blue Jund':

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Grim Flayer
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

    3 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Liliana the Last Hope

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Deep Analysis
    1 Maelstrom Pulse

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Fatal Push
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Dismember

    4 Bayou
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Forest
    1 Swamp
    9 colour-appropriate fetches
    3 Wasteland

    //Sideboard:
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Golgari Charm
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Seal of Primordium
    1 Arcane Laboratory
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

  8. #8
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    Re: Tireless Sultai

    Quote Originally Posted by pow22 View Post
    Cool list. I've been messing around with a similar BG-with-a-minor-blue-splash deck online recently and it's been doing pretty well, although I'm a bit more planeswalker heavy and am not running Tireless Trackers so this might not be the appropriate place to discuss it really :P.

    Dismember is useful vs delve threats while also being able to snag a turn one Deathrite. How have the Trackers been? (I sort-of feel like they'd be better in a more blue heavy build with a couple of Daze for the landfall trigger.)

    FWIW, my build, 'Blue Jund':

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Grim Flayer
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

    3 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Liliana the Last Hope

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Deep Analysis
    1 Maelstrom Pulse

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Fatal Push
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Dismember

    4 Bayou
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Forest
    1 Swamp
    9 colour-appropriate fetches
    3 Wasteland

    //Sideboard:
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Golgari Charm
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Seal of Primordium
    1 Arcane Laboratory
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    The tireless trackers have been really good and I above all like that you don't fully rely on your graveyard as 11 out of 13 creatures in your list, I lost almost all of my games vs UW stoneblade decks to rest in peace. It takes the place of planeswalkers that I assume there may be some wins from that. For now our meta is different kinds of delver lists, uw stoneblade and lands essentially, there a smatter of rogue and 2 piece combo decks as well.

    I like the 1 of dismember over an abrupt decay mainboard also the full 4 hymns are pretty cool, however my meta have proven too wasteland heavy to allow double black turn 2 all the time without risk of losing so I will stick with inqusition here (the same reason for having an island, I don't get to keep nonbasic blue lands in play for more then one spell usually).
    My current Pox Loam list (updated 22 November 2016)

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

  9. #9
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    Re: Tireless Sultai

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1014091

    This seems somewhat similar, playing 4 strixes and Edric to draw cards..

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    Re: Tireless Sultai

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1014091

    This seems somewhat similar, playing 4 strixes and Edric to draw cards..

    The luck has been turning for the worse for my deck, still a positive record but some concern over if recent changes has been neccessary, I will continue to check to see if certain cards are viable and I especially like the unearth from this list.

    I might also try a force of will version of my deck, though that is just straight up sultai. Cutting goyf entirely might be part of my plan in that case.
    My current Pox Loam list (updated 22 November 2016)

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

  11. #11

    Re: Tireless Sultai

    ^ There's a lot of sweetness in that (Lonestar16's) BUG list. I have to keep checking the total card count to confirm that it's only 60 cards!

    I managed another 4-1 with the same Hymn/Flayer list a couple of evenings ago, beating two Grixis Delver decks, RB reanimator, mono-red stompy (don't remember this one that well) and losing to an experimental D+T list (Phil Gallagher, I think). Delver has generally felt like an ok match-up, probably because I'm running a lot of removal.

    Having said that, I was crushed by a bunch of turn 1-2 combo in the previous league.

    Btw, have you considered Dark Confidant in your list? You're running a decent amount of one CMC discard which you can use to clear removal and no Forces means relatively few bad flips. (I think you still have one Angler, right?) Curving IoK/Thoughtseize into Bob; or DRS into Discard + Bob; or DRS-eats-removal-spell into Bob are all pretty powerful openings.

    Tracker does feel a bit like a Force of Will card. If you're spending your mana cracking clues to draw cards then your probably want cheap (or free) disruption to draw into. The problem is that you have to overhaul the deck to get the blue count high enough. I really like the idea of a BG-splash-Leovold/Brainstorm deck :).

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    Re: Tireless Sultai

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1014091

    This seems somewhat similar, playing 4 strixes and Edric to draw cards..
    This looks like a slightly updated version of Joe Brennan's list from Eternal Extravaganza 7 and Eternal Weekend 2017. If you go through Eternal Central's EW2017 decklists, Joe registered his deck as "God damn you Dryad Arbor" or something like that.

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    Re: Tireless Sultai

    Quote Originally Posted by pow22 View Post
    ^ There's a lot of sweetness in that (Lonestar16's) BUG list. I have to keep checking the total card count to confirm that it's only 60 cards!

    I managed another 4-1 with the same Hymn/Flayer list a couple of evenings ago, beating two Grixis Delver decks, RB reanimator, mono-red stompy (don't remember this one that well) and losing to an experimental D+T list (Phil Gallagher, I think). Delver has generally felt like an ok match-up, probably because I'm running a lot of removal.

    Having said that, I was crushed by a bunch of turn 1-2 combo in the previous league.

    Btw, have you considered Dark Confidant in your list? You're running a decent amount of one CMC discard which you can use to clear removal and no Forces means relatively few bad flips. (I think you still have one Angler, right?) Curving IoK/Thoughtseize into Bob; or DRS into Discard + Bob; or DRS-eats-removal-spell into Bob are all pretty powerful openings.

    Tracker does feel a bit like a Force of Will card. If you're spending your mana cracking clues to draw cards then your probably want cheap (or free) disruption to draw into. The problem is that you have to overhaul the deck to get the blue count high enough. I really like the idea of a BG-splash-Leovold/Brainstorm deck :).

    I have a force of will list I will try this wednesday but I am not 100% set on the list yet. I have been feeling the same thing in relation to sources and I have gone with 2 jace the mind sculptor and added strix instead of goyf currently for blue count. + a smatter of random ones.


    I also really like the idea of dark confidant, but since losing alot to tempo and the deck already having in the non fow iteration: 6 cards that require usually at least 2 life to play. it might be better to save life as a resource for those cards.
    My current Pox Loam list (updated 22 November 2016)

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

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