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Thread: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

  1. #41
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Very impressive! Thanks for a very nice tournament report! Great to have you as an active contributor here! I saw a comment on Reddit about planned recording of playing, I guess you are involved in that? It would be a great resource to have here. I want to record my local tournaments too but haven't gotten close to access to the local store's recording equipment yet..

    Maybe you share my idea that we need to prepare for the attrition heavy decks somehow? Or just leave it as it is? I see in your maindeck Renegade Rallier and TNN that are kind of good vs attrition, and a few others that are valuable like Mother, Glen Elendra etc. Also in your board I see Thrun, Tracker, Wilt-Leaf, Crusader and Sanctum Prelate as potentially very good cards. Do you think we need more or just having what's there is enough? Like the occasional Mother surviving t1. Moving something from the board to the maindeck? Etc.

    Like I've been writing I think Hangarback Walker, Ranger of Eos or Recruiter of the Guard and maybe Flickerwisp would be good ways to fight this attrition. Hangarback Walker with some way to get it back from the graveyard would be great, but maybe it's futile. Maybe a Ranger of Eos and two Hangarback Walkers would be enough. I like the idea of using Scryb Ranger to grow Hangarback Walker with three counters every turn.

    I'll re-read your report later and see if I have some other input.

  2. #42
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Or maybe Tradewinds weren't such a bad idea ...

    There is good logic behind Stinner's (ie. original) version -- it has a bunch of cheap counterspells which help you develop in face of removal. Without them you are down on tempo (average cc of removal in something like Pile is lower than average cc of our creatures), and banking only on threat density and card advantage, but to generate card advantage in this deck you need to have at least somewhat developed board (doubly so for virtual card advantage). Catch 22.

  3. #43
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Hey DireLemming, sweet to have a new poster here! Well, I don't strictly disagree with what you say, I play FoW's from time to time [edit: maybe I misunderstood "cheap counterspell" and you refer to a wider variety, sorry]. But everything comes at a cost. FoWing your opponents Lightning Bolt, when your opponent is playing a card advantage strategy, is perhaps not a very good approach to win a game. That's basically like hymning yourself, with the difference that the opponent only payed CMC 1. Well, on the other hand you get to keep your Mother of Runes alive and that can be very valuable in the matchup. But if they went first, chances are they have a follow up removal on their turn 2. I think I would prefer a couple of Spell Pierces actually, you can go t1 Vial, t2 cast a mana dork and vial in a Mother, use Spell Pierce to protect Mother. However, I considered Hangarback Walker because when they destroy it, using a spell, you get a couple of tokens that they also need to deal with, this can put some pressure on their removal spells and also helps vs their planeswalkers. If they can't destroy Hangarback, you can grow it every turn which makes it into even more of a problem for them. Maybe it's bad, but it seems good to me.

    When it comes to Tradewind Rider, that probably doesn't help that much vs Pile, most of their creatures you don't want to bounce since they bring some card advantage on being cast. I didn't get your argument there.
    Last edited by pettdan; 04-04-2018 at 04:06 AM.

  4. #44

    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    When it comes to Tradewind Rider, that probably doesn't help that much vs Pile, most of their creatures you don't want to bounce since they bring some card advantage on being cast. I didn't get your argument there.
    Agree
    And yes, there are plenty of better creature at that CC anyway with fewer cons and a bigger impact. Sadly, ofc, because Tradewind was such a good and tricky creature =)

    @Demonic Pact: Congrats again and again, i'm very happy for your results =)
    About grinding MU: Obv they're an important point for this deck. In my experience, now that cards like Opposition and Bubble Matrix are no more so usefull (Leovold for the first, Command for the second basically) a big option is the differentiation of our threats: and the main suspects are PW (Elspeth and Garruk Relentless probably)

  5. #45

    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider



    playable in most?

    Btw hi, never really played the deck but helped memories tuning it for like 6 years now
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  6. #46
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Hi Noctalor, yeah I thought I recognized your name from tipo1 or something, always nice with some input here.

    I was looking at that card too, seems very interesting. Karakas is a problem, but Karakas decks in general are ok matchups, perhaps. Putting this into play with an active Mother is quite strong (it's even strong enough to offer good protection without Mother backup), vialling it in is slow but also very good, not least since it counters not only removal but also discard, Tendrils, Jace and Liliana activations, probably a dozen other relevant effects that I didn't think of yet. It even comes with a super relevant mana dump. Quite worthy of testing, I'd say.

    Having this next to Leovold seems pretty rough too, for most fair decks. And with a Karakas around, to protect this and potentially Leovold, what a nightmare, I imagine.

    Edit:
    @Memories: good point, maybe it's time for some planeswalkers. I've been trying to figure out if there are any options for an enchantment list because I want Bitterblossom, similar to planeswalkers in being hard to deal with and generating increasing card advantage, but didn't come up with anything yet.
    Last edited by pettdan; 04-04-2018 at 04:05 AM.

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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    List is now on mtgtop8 for reference: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18893&d=318344&f=LE

    @DireLemming: Aether Vial produces a lot of tempo. Playing mana dorks also helps. Plus if we're talking about the Pile matchup specifically, them having a mana or two left over after killing your thing doesn't really matter...all they can really do is cantrip, play a strix or activate a DRS...these games go long all the time and are always decided by value not tempo. It's all about trying to get the right things to stick through their removal. I can see the value of Spell Pierce or Negate effects here, I can also see them suck when you draw them in the mid to late game. I've mentioned this before, the average Pile mainboard has around 8 removal spells. That's not that much...sticking a Meddling Mage, Prelate, Leovold or active Mother of Runes shuts out some of those options too. To improve the matchup I would play more value creatures, like pettdan is suggesting.

    @pettdan: Yes, comment on reddit about recording is from a friend I plan to do some MTGO videos with in the not too distant future...you mentioned recording at LGS, I could ask, not sure if that would be possible at weekly tournaments...
    I can certainly see the need to address the removal heavy decks. I lost to Czech Pile this time, beat it twice in Rome but would say the matchup is pretty close to 50/50, probably slightly unfavored if your opponent is a very good pilot. The Ranger of Eos + Hangarback plan seems solid (or Recruiter of the Guard to find it I guess). I have a friend who plays a lot of Affinity and I've seen Hangarback in action vs. Czech Pile and they absolutely hate playing against the card ^^ I don't think we can rely on getting Graveyard value in this matchup though because of DRS. Flickerwisp I think is a bit underwhelming in this deck, the amount of ETB effects is low and it really only does much if you have a Vial out.

    regarding Planeswalkers/Enchantments: I see the appeal and I'm not saying it's wrong to play them, just that anything that's a creature gets a massive boost in this deck due to Vial and Fauna Shaman, and also GSZ if it's Green...

    Shalai looks cool, will probably have to test it :)

  8. #48
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    I was referring to some combination of FoW, Spell Pierce and Negate (I play a list similar to http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1037502 main functional difference being an addition of 2 Recruiters). I agree, FoW is not the best tool to fight removal, unless it's protecting virtual card advantage. Virtual CA is also why the negative utility of topdecking a counterspell is comparatively low. We have very high threat density and in the late game (ie by the time you are in topdeck mode) you either have your board at least somewhat developed and are therefore pulling ahead on virtual CA, or you need to set it up in which case you still need to protect your first couple of drops until the emergent effects kick in.

    Tradewind has different functions at different stages of the game. In the mid-game I use it mostly on my own creatures (blanking removal, "infinite-blocking", reusing CtPs, resetting) in the late game it's a lock piece (once you can do it 2+ the primary target are their lands, not creatures).

    If the game goes long, yes it's decided by value and virtual CA, but tempo matters in the early and mid-game. In my experience when we loose to aggro-control or midrange is because they keep us off balance enough that we never/too late progress from there. For that to happen the opponent needs a relatively gas-rich hand meaning she's tight on lands and for something like Pile to continue the pressure for long enough to break us, they have to go removal, dig; removal, dig, ... The pivotal difference in board state can be very subtle: 0-1 creature -> they drop a PW and lock up the game; 2+ creatures -> virtual CA stranding the PW in their hand.

  9. #49

    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    @Shalai: interesting at least, very sad she's not GW =/

    @pettdan: Bitterblossom is interesting and i fear that i've tried it only many years ago. Could effectively give us the type ot threat we need at a lower cost (and much, much lower speed obv). But it's also interesting with Spellstutter and Jitte/equip/mirror Entity

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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    @Demonic Pact - I noticed the deck on MtGTop8, and since I've never met a creature toolbox deck I did not like, I needed to know more, which drew me here, especially since, as it turns, out, I've got an awful lot of the cards already, so I'm really close to getting another toolbox (next to my Modern one).

    @Pettdan - Great, great primer - it was invaluable in checking dead-certs and potentials against my inventory :-)

  11. #51
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    @Taramawn: That's very nice to hear, thank you! I sure hope you'll try out a version that you like and then you are more than welcome to update us on your experiences.

    @Memories: Bitterblossom could be something, but it obviously requires a lot of considerations not being a creature and all. I guess Hangarback Walker is the less reliable creature version. I'll see if I figure out some nice synergies that could further motivate the Bitterblossom. Maybe it would be worthwile to play one of each.

  12. #52

    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    @Taramawn: That's very nice to hear, thank you! I sure hope you'll try out a version that you like and then you are more than welcome to update us on your experiences.

    @Memories: Bitterblossom could be something, but it obviously requires a lot of considerations not being a creature and all. I guess Hangarback Walker is the less reliable creature version. I'll see if I figure out some nice synergies that could further motivate the Bitterblossom. Maybe it would be worthwile to play one of each.
    As said, for me BB has sense if we put other cards around it, as 1-2 Spellstuttuer, Equip, Mirror Entity, Opposition and so on. Otherwise it's probably too slow =/

  13. #53
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by Memories of the Time View Post
    As said, for me BB has sense if we put other cards around it, as 1-2 Spellstuttuer, Equip, Mirror Entity, Opposition and so on. Otherwise it's probably too slow =/
    There are a couple of decks based on Bitterblossom, using Spellstutter Sprite and other cards. It would be quite good to have a look at those. There are a few already in the primer's section on decks that can be used for inspiration, I just found and added another couple.

  14. #54
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by Memories of the Time View Post
    Agree
    And yes, there are plenty of better creature at that CC anyway with fewer cons and a bigger impact. Sadly, ofc, because Tradewind was such a good and tricky creature =)

    @Demonic Pact: Congrats again and again, i'm very happy for your results =)
    About grinding MU: Obv they're an important point for this deck. In my experience, now that cards like Opposition and Bubble Matrix are no more so usefull (Leovold for the first, Command for the second basically) a big option is the differentiation of our threats: and the main suspects are PW (Elspeth and Garruk Relentless probably)
    Guys.
    Tradewind is simply the best creature in the deck.
    In a mirror who play first the Tradewind at 90% win the game.
    "Life is fight"

    Emanuel Lasker

  15. #55

    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by Stinner View Post
    Guys.
    Tradewind is simply the best creature in the deck.
    In a mirror who play first the Tradewind at 90% win the game.
    Nope, and the fact that the few lists that have reached some degree of success in the last years don't play it (or play it for a nostalgic reason and would cut it, as for Shaden if i remember correctly) is a clear sign.
    A mirror between MOST is something probably never happened, so the last line is funny =)

  16. #56
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by Memories of the Time View Post
    Nope, and the fact that the few lists that have reached some degree of success in the last years don't play it (or play it for a nostalgic reason and would cut it, as for Shaden if i remember correctly) is a clear sign.
    A mirror between MOST is something probably never happened, so the last line is funny =)
    That's only because I have not played in the last years, dude.
    Tradewind is THE core card to control the board and make a lot of tricks with the enter the board abilities of your crew, if you underestimate this, You've never understood the spirit of the deck, Memories, and I'm sorry for you.
    "Life is fight"

    Emanuel Lasker

  17. #57

    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by Stinner View Post
    That's only because I have not played in the last years, dude.
    Tradewind is THE core card to control the board and make a lot of tricks with the enter the board abilities of your crew, if you underestimate this, You've never understood the spirit of the deck, Memories, and I'm sorry for you.
    Beyond the funny joke in the first line, as said Tradewind is an outdated card. This is my opinion, ofc, shared by others as i can see. If you don't agree that's fine, but keeping saying the same things won't change anything, especially without results ^^ So, move on and discuss other cards/strategies =)

  18. #58
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by Memories of the Time View Post
    Beyond the funny joke in the first line, as said Tradewind is an outdated card. This is my opinion, ofc, shared by others as i can see. If you don't agree that's fine, but keeping saying the same things won't change anything, especially without results^^ So, move on and discuss other cards/strategies =)
    Funny position.
    I've done results with Tradewind.
    You?
    You're famous in Italy just for the greek cry (everytime unluck, lost only for bad beats... and so on. Never self-criticism for you level or play or level of deckbuilding).
    Apart from the speech related to the results, I've argued WHY tradewind is a strong card and have sense that is included in the deck, you've everytime close the speech with a generic and not argued "is outdated" and stop.
    Very technical, congratulations.
    "Life is fight"

    Emanuel Lasker

  19. #59
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    No need to fight here, please. Unless you have very good results with a version, try to be open to other versions. Most recent lists have not been using Tradewind Rider as I recall, especially the successful versions that have been posted here recently. That of course doesn't mean Tradewind Rider cannot or should not be used, just that for your argument to be taken seriously you need to back it up with some recent results. You are definitely entitled to your opinion, just as others are entitled to their opinion.

    Edit: Btw I think we're all guilty of those weaknesses to some extent. But does it really matter?

  20. #60

    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    110% agree with pettdan
    To avoid being arrogant i'm suggesting to focus on lists that have reached results in the recent... years? That's it, very simply.
    Especially because i'm a bad deckbuilder and even worse player (and i haven't played most in tournament in the last 3 years, just playtested on cockatrice), i'm not crystallized to any card or choice made by me and i'm eager to discuss new things supported by results. As said, we've already discussed Tradewind for pages between the last topic and this one, so we can move to talk about other things untill some changes happen (results or new cards perfectly fit for it).

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