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Thread: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

  1. #261
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Very interesting, will add to the deck's history. :) Not as old as the Tradewind Rider/Survival standard decks but very nice still.

  2. #262
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Ooh, MOst undefeated on the lgl legacy tournament round 3: http://www.twitch.tv/leavingalegacy

  3. #263

    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    How is the deck looking now that Wrenn is banned? I'm psyched to give it another go. How are people dealing with Depths?

  4. #264
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by nimkee View Post
    How is the deck looking now that Wrenn is banned? I'm psyched to give it another go. How are people dealing with Depths?
    It is a bit early to say how the meta shapes out, which influences deckbuilding a lot here, but basically back to what it was before W6 made us, some of us, add giver of runes, paradise druid, and cut down on mana dorks.. Maybe paradise druid is still worth it, not sure, hitting pws is nice, and I could see a giver or two in the deck..

    Do join the Discord, I think there's a link in the discord thread. Also, what version are you playing?

  5. #265

    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    I was on an old Atraxa build from 2018, no combo or anything too fancy.

    I've yet to use discord though this might push me to do so. How do you do against UW blade with b2b?


    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    It is a bit early to say how the meta shapes out, which influences deckbuilding a lot here, but basically back to what it was before W6 made us, some of us, add giver of runes, paradise druid, and cut down on mana dorks.. Maybe paradise druid is still worth it, not sure, hitting pws is nice, and I could see a giver or two in the deck..

    Do join the Discord, I think there's a link in the discord thread. Also, what version are you playing?

  6. #266
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by nimkee View Post
    I was on an old Atraxa build from 2018, no combo or anything too fancy.

    I've yet to use discord though this might push me to do so. How do you do against UW blade with b2b?
    Perfect, come join! Alwaysneed more people discussing and sharing ideas.. Anyway here works too..

    Uw blade is always tough I feel, but I think decent.. Plague engineer does answer tnn which is nice. I recently met them with an updated build, lost.. I ran 3 prelates and a kambal maindeck.. T3 prelate resolved and.. Lets see, might as well paste the whole tournament report from the discord, was intending to do that.. Ended up winning 2-0 vs stoneblade but was so close to ruining it with a misplay last minute.. Opponent actually commented on not boarding into b2b's and how that was probably a mistake,iirc.

    From Oct 30:
    Had a 2-1-1 at the locals today. Lost vs 4c control with w6, oko and jace, he was down at 1 life in the final game and eeked it out after a very slow start. Funny that I worked hard to improve the matchup, or well actually rather the RUG matchup amd uw.. Need to consider this deck now too, heard about it but didn't play against it before, it was played by two players who both 4-0d the event today. Then I won 2-0 vs UW Stoneblade control, really tight and almost drew by a late misplay, getting deputy into play taking his palace jailer which would allow him to stp it and get another jailer trigger and monarch back.. Realized last second and went for my own jailer instead. Drew with DnT in super tight games. He had a lot of revokers turning of mothers and givers, a lot of flickerwisp for card advantage beaters and multiple jailers.
    And also beat 4c w6 cascade (bloodbraids, shardless, coatl, strix, hymn, lily, decays etc)
    3 prelates, kambal, and 5 runes felt good. Not sure about deputies and plaguecrafter
    2 plague engineers were good.
    Jailer was good..
    Last edited by pettdan; 05-13-2020 at 02:54 PM.

  7. #267

    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    After a year playing other decks I'm back with MOST. This time I want some challange... So I want to try playing without White and add more Red.

    This is the first list I'm gonna try. Just missing a few cards. But I really want to hear any ideas of what kind of cards can replace the white.
    Need some disruption like Thalia and Prelate and protection like Mother of runes.

    Key cards are Lazav, the Multifarious, Volrath's Shapeshifter, Necrotic Ooze, Dimir Doppelganger. These guys can use most creatures in the graveyard so
    cards countered or destroyed are still usable.

    Creature (29)
    1x Baleful Strix
    1x Big Game Hunter
    4x Birds of Paradise
    1x Dimir Doppelganger Keranos and Sheoldred are main targets. Can target opponents graveyard!
    4x Fauna Shaman
    1x Glen Elendra Archmage
    1x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden+ Nissa, Scry a creature to the bottom and use Grenzo to put it in play.
    2x Imperial Recruiter
    1x Keranos, God of Storms
    1x Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
    2x Lazav, the Multifarious
    1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    1x Lotleth Troll
    1x Magus of the Moon
    1x Necrotic Ooze
    1x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    1x Reclamation Sage
    1x Scavenging Ooze
    1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
    1x Volrath's Shapeshifter
    1x Dryad Arbor

    16 Lands Nothing special except for 1x Volrath's Stronghold

    Planeswalker
    2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
    Sorcery
    1x Eldritch Evolution Sometimes good sometimes bad. Think sacrificing Recruiter or Reclamation Sage to find Keranos or Necrotic Ooze.
    2x Green Sun's Zenith
    Instant
    2x Abrupt Decay
    Enchantment
    4x Standstill Not sure how this will play but with Vial, Nissa, Grenzo I don't really need to play any spells.
    Artifact
    4x Aether Vial

    Sideboard
    2x Echoing TruthNot sure what to sidebord against Dark Deapth decks but Echoing Truth works and can be used against, Field of the dead otehr tokens.
    1x Elesh Norn, Grand CenobiteThis with Volraths Shapeshifter are an old favorite
    2x Flusterstorm
    2x Kolaghan's Command
    4x Leyline of the Void
    2x Phyrexian Revoker
    2x Thoughtseize

    A fun Combos i would like to try when I get stable list: Necrotic Ooze+Minion of Leshrac+Torchling.
    Destroys land, untap and can protect itself!

    I really like crazy combos and interactions so post any ideas you guys think can be cool to tryout!

  8. #268
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider


  9. #269
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    The primer is full, again. Instead of going through it I'll move sections to new messages and provide a link in the primer. Below is the 6-12 months old matchup guide, I'll update it at some point, it's still fairly correct.

    Matchups

    Below we'll have a look at some common matchups and comment briefly on how you can expect the matchups to play out and what cards you should be looking for and boarding in/out.

    • Miracles

    Comment: Try to pressure them! Aether Vial helps with that, not least pressuring their Jaces. Always expect Terminus!
    Your MVP's: Aether Vial, Gaddock Teeg, Glen Elendra Archmage, Mother of Runes, True-Name Nemesis, Invasive Surgery, Winter Orb, Vendilion Clique

    • Grixis Control

    Comment: They play so much removal and discard that it's hard for you to establish control, then they follow up with planeswalkers that you have trouble coming through for. If you manage to get an active Mother, that's very valuable. Vial tends to be eaten by a Kolaghan's Command so you can't really expect vial tricks. Both Glen Elendra and Shalai can provide some welcome protection, TNN can attack them but usually they have some sweepers that end up taking it along with your other 1 toughness creatures. A late Meren can turn the game around if they can't interact with it. Cataclysm from the board messes with their mana and clears their planeswalkers.
    Your MVP's: Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Glen Elendra Archmage, Shalai, Voice of Many, Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Sylvan Library, Cataclysm, Bitterblossom, Mother of Runes

    • Grixis Delver

    Comment: Hopefully you can go Vial into Mother and Scryb Ranger to stabilize the battlefield, then get a Pontiff to sweep their board (if they have Pyromancer and/or TNN), a lifelinker if you have it or just Meren to build up an overwhelming board. Of course Glenn Elendra can stop Lightning Bolts from dealing the last damage and Leovold to stop their cantrips.
    Your MVP's: Mother of Runes, Atraxa, Umezawa's Jitte, Orzhov Pontiff (if they have TNN, probably no Pyromancer), Swords to Plowshares, Abrupt Decay

    • RUG Delver

    Comment: Like for Grixis Delver but your mana base will be exposed, Carpet of Flowers is very valuable here. They usually don't play a lot of removal so you can probably establish board control with Mother, but Bolt+Stifle+Wasteland can make it so you never establish any board in these games. Watch out for Rough // Tumble out of the board as well as Forked Bolt.
    Your MVP's: Mother of Runes, Atraxa, Aether Vial, Scryb Ranger, Umezawa's Jitte, Swords to Plowshares, Abrupt Decay, Carpet of Flowers

    • Death's Shadow

    Comment: Similar to the delver decks above but they tend to be able to produce a faster clock, making your removal like StP and Decay slightly more valuable, I think.
    Your MVP's: Mother of Runes, Merieke ri Berit, Umezawa's Jitte, Abrupt Decay, Swords to Plowshares, Peacekeeper

    • Eldrazi

    Comment: You can easily get run over by them, try to find a lifegainer, removal or Meren to keep building a better boardstate.
    Your MVP's: Atraxa, Umezawa's Jitte, Peacekeeper, Swords to Plowshares, Merieke ri Berit, Meren of Clan Nel Toth, True-Name Nemesis, Glissa, the Traitor

    • Big Eldrazi

    Comment: It's very hard to beat them before they beat you, this is one of the matchups in which a combo element in your deck will be very beneficial. Otherwise try to interact with their lands and hand.
    Your MVP's: Magus of the Moon, Winter Orb, Vendilion Clique, Fulminator Mage, Gaddock Teeg

    • Death and Taxes

    Comment: This is a good matchup, you have reliable artifact removal that you can easily tutor for and even reuse every turn with Meren, you also have tutorable Pontiff to basically clear their board. You also have Scryb Ranger to win any Mother of Rune battle.
    Your MVP's: Orzhov Pontiff, Qasali Pridemage, Knight of the Autumn, Aether Vial, Mother of Runes, Scryb Ranger, Umezawa's Jitte, Abrupt Decay

    • Storm-based combo (ANT, TES)

    Comment: If they don't win by t2 you have pretty good chances of landing a hatebear. When sideboarding you try to bring in interaction for the first two turns and board out all cards that are mostly relevant for the attack step and vs creatures.
    Your MVP's: Gaddock Teeg, Sanctum Prelate, Meddling Mage, Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Thoughtseize, Invasive Surgery, Force of Will, Vendilion Clique, Kambal, Consul of Allocation

    • Show and Tell-based decks

    Comment: A combination of hatebears and creatures that let you steal the opponent's creatures give you a pretty good matchups. They don't interact well with Fauna Shaman once resolved (Vial and GSZ make resolving a copy easier, of course), so if they didn't win by turn 3-4 you're in a good spot to build up a board and hand with answers to Show and Tell (Glenn Elendra Archmage, Sanctum Prelate, Gilded Drake) and Omniscience (Qasali Pridemage or Knight of the Autumn). Sneak Attack can be hard to interact with once in play (Gaddock helps), Phyrexian Revoker is great if you have it. Aether Vial lets you respond to what the opponent during their mainphase and once you reach EoT be proactive (Gaddock, Glenn Elendra).
    Your MVP's: Sanctum Prelate, Meddling Mage, Glen Elendra Archmage, Gilded Drake, Peacekeeper, Aether Vial, Fauna Shaman, Invasive Surgery, Thoughtseize, Force of Will, Vendilion Clique, Gaddock Teeg

    • Punishing Loam

    Comment: Punishing Loam can be difficult to interact with, unless you get an active Mother of Runes first. Chalice can slow you down, it is not generally a big problem but coupled with Toxic Deluge, Punishing Fire and recursive mana denial (Loam or KotR + Wasteland) it can keep you from doing anything meaningful. Also an unanswered Dark Confidant can draw them into their best tools.
    Your MVP's: Mother of Runes, Sanctum Prelate Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Scavenging Ooze, Magus of the Moon, Abrupt Decay, Swords to Plowshares

    • Lands

    Comment: This is a tough matchups, sometimes they lock you down with mana denial coupled with a Tabernacle, sometimes Punishing Fire gets all your creatures. Sometimes you deploy a board they can't interact with. Sometimes you get to steal their Marit Lage token and beat them with it.
    Your MVP's: Aether Vial, Sanctum Prelate, Gilded Drake, Mother of Runes, Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Scryb Ranger, Winter Orb, Vendilion Clique, True-Name Nemesis

    • Reanimator (BR, UB)

    Comment:
    Your MVP's: Leyline of the Void, Faerie Maccabre, Scavenging Ooze, Gilded Drake, Merieke ri Berit, Invasive Surgery, Thoughtseize, Force of Will

    • Elves

    Comment:
    Your MVP's: Umezawa's Jitte, Orzhov Pontiff, Gaddock Teeg, Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Peacekeeper, Invasive Surgery, Linvala, Keeper of Silence

    • Goblins

    Comment: This can be tough, try to establish board control and watch out for Goblin Sharpshooters (try to keep StP for it) especially when they have a goblin providing haste in play. Also their Goblin Thrashmaster may keep you low on Aether Vials and Jitte.
    Your MVP's: Umezawa's Jitte, Orzhov Pontiff, Izzet Staticaster, Abrupt Decay, Swords to Plowshares, Peacekeeper, Engineered Plague (sb), Linvala, Keeper of Silence (sb)

    • Infect

    Comment: They are faster than you, if you can land an early Peacekeeper that gives you pretty good control of the game. You can try to set up Mother and a flyer for blocking, Pontiff is great and answers the unblockable creature, Leovold stops cantrips. Spot removal help immensely and if you survive a couple of turns getting counters on a Jitte likely wins the game. Glen Elendra can also protect you from pump spells if you live that long. Board into fast interaction.
    Your MVP's: Peacekeeper, Umezawa's Jitte, Orzhov Pontiff, Swords to Plowshares, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize

  10. #270
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    I've updated the primer a bit, creating an alternative core version with Soulherder as well as adding a couple of relevant printings from the past 12 months: Once upon a Time, Plague Engineer, Oko, Uro, Kroxa, Collector Ouphe. Edit: and Heliod, Lavinia, Klothys

    Due to the Corona-virus outbreak I've bought the deck online, making it a budget version (about 140-150 tix). Which can actually drive innovation, when there are so many options for deck-building it can be good to be forced to pick a new path sometimes. Online, Wooded Foothills are the cheapest fetches after Windswept Heath and so this encouraged me to consider a more red version. Which is not a new thing, I've done it before. But also, the addition of Soulherder made me consider a WURG version, rather than UBRG which me and others have run recently, and WURG seems pretty ok. I went from a more heavy red splash in the fair version using Pia and Kiran Nalaar or Huntmaster of the Fells which are both excellent with Soulherder - to a ligher red splash with a combo finish. There are a few black cards too. After playing the deck for a couple of nights in the playtesting room of MTGO I decided to try adding Shapeshifter to get a bit less consistency but a bit more power. Volrath's Shapeshifter with Elesh Norn or Sheoldred, Whispering One both promise to end a game quickly. I added a little section for VS to the primer, it deserves to be expanded on so if someone wants to write a section on that, feel very welcome to do so! I added Full English Breakfast to the inspirational deck lists section of the primer, btw. That deck has a devoted following and works well in a MOST shell, I haven't checked the thread yet and I was on a MtG-hiatus during that period so I'm not very familiar with it.

    Esper Vial has been a very succesful deck online, played by mostly one player (JTL005) and it's very similar to MOST. It's basically cutting the green tutor base and green creatures for FoW, Wasteland and StP, similar to some old-style MOST-versions iirc (typically players use either fows or stps for interaction because playing both and in addition brainstorm doesn't leave much room for the creatures and tutors, but this approach seems to merit further testing). Also due to this it's running Recruiter over Fauna Shaman, similar in this aspect to the direction I've taken my list for the past 6-12 months. I started by trying a single Recruiter iirc but when I saw Cermaks' lists that were a bit closer to DnT I also started increasing the amount of Recruiters. Recruiter doesn't synergize as well with Meren but it worked playing both at the same time, the Recruiter tutorable creatures and GSZ with Meren and Fauna Shaman that act as two parallell and largely overlapping sets of toolbox-creatures. However, Soulherder is a similar value engine to Meren but works better with Recruiter, doesn't use the graveyard, costs less, isn't a legend, grows into a game-ending threat, generates value more easily because you don't depend on Vial to get the value immediately, etc etc. Both cards can be played in the deck at the same time but Soulherder is very strong and works well in multiples. Soulherder makes you focus on etb effects as opposed to tapping effects that were more common with Fauna Shaman, which itself is a tap effect. So. To put it short, Soulherder offers a lot of value and utility and I think every version should try at least a copy, replacing at least one Fauna Shaman with a Recruiter (Imperial or -of the Guard).

    Similarly Once upon a Time has offered much more consistent opening hands, helping us find the first two lands, finding fetch lands for the splash colors and finding a turn one play in mana dorks or mother. It competes with GSZ for space though. Anyway, you can check the updated core section of the primer if you want to where I suggest an updated core version.

    Also, if anyone is interested in watching me stream the deck and discuss plays and card choices then you can join me: http://www.twitch.tv/pettdan_
    A warning though, it's just the MTGO practice room, I'm very bad at playing and talking so I do things like attacking into a Mishra's Factory but it's quite fun anyway. The two streams up are vs Reanimator, a fairly new player, and Eldrazi where I couldn't answer t1 Chalice in 2 games. Eldrazi can be tough, certainly. If anyone has a good suggestion for how to watch stream chat while streaming MTGO, let me know. As far as I understand you basically have to use a second monitor or cell phone.

    Upd: I just managed to log in to my old account so I'll try to use this account in the future: http://www.twitch.tv/pettdan
    Last edited by pettdan; 03-24-2020 at 05:21 AM.

  11. #271
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Here's the list I'm testing right now (on a budget). Considering cutting black or red again. It hurts when you draw both splash color lands and no other, naturally, though it doesn't happen that often.. Also considering adding a fourth ouat because it helps avoid such situations. Or another brainstorm. Considering cutting loyal retainers since it just never was useful yet.

    Black would be easy to cut here, I like the shriekmaw in the sb but meren could be another soulherder or something to support the shapeshifters, Merieke could be some red threat for example. I consider adding another magus, seems like a good way to fight uro and bug. I also wonder if there's something I can play to have a better chance vs oko.. Like adding a giver of runes, revoker which I don't like a lot or some haste threat.. Maybe it's time for shaman of the great hunt.



    https://imgur.com/a/6dksvyb



    I recorded a game yesterday. Still figuring out details but I think g3 could be nice to watch to see what shapeshifter can do. https://www.twitch.tv/pettdan

  12. #272
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    I recorded a little last night, chatting with Vickas about plays. We learned that next time we need to discuss less when playing games since it took a long time to do a single play.

    Edit: all links removed from this message as they only stay up for two weeks on Twitch.

    Update

    I updated list many times in the last week, latest change is cutting a Brainstorm (down to 2), adding a OuaT (up to 4), adding a Prelate (up to 2) and cutting.. Something.
    Last edited by pettdan; 04-19-2020 at 11:07 AM.

  13. #273
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    I've been testing Volrath's Shapeshifter lately.. Very fun and powerful while also offering utility. Often very surprising utility. It has happened more than once that I get a surprise meddling mage or sanctum prelate when it enters the battlefield.. That I didn't notice beforehand.

    I'm currently trying to find some more cards that work well with it and that are feasible to hardcast or vial in, so at 4-5-6 mana. I'll make a list here, it's actually much easier to revisit than my notepad files due to the card links.

    Utility:
    Magus of the Moon
    Merieke ri Berit
    Patron Wizard
    Vengeful Pharaoh
    Street wraith
    Galecaster Colossus
    Kogla, the Titan Ape

    Board presence:
    Brokkos, Apex of Forever
    Phyrexian Obliterator
    Archetype of Endurance
    Wurmcoil Engine
    Titania, Protector of Argoth
    Reality Smasher
    Stonehewer Giant
    Spiritmonger
    Yidaro, Wandering Monster

    Hatebear effect vs combo and control mostly:
    Chancellor of the Annex
    Ruric Thar
    Sire of Insanity

    Value:
    Niv-mizzet, Parun
    Sire of Stagnation
    Sun Titan


    I'm also looking at Recurring Nightmare (works very well with VS), here are a few cards that are good with it, as a reminder:
    Recruiter of the Guard
    Knight of Autumn
    Palace Jailer
    Venser, Shaper Savant
    Shriekmaw
    Titania, Protector of argoth
    Wurmcoil Engine


    Edited:
    By the way, I have reported two bugs on MTGO related to using Volrath's Shapeshifter. If you log in and vote for these that'd be nice.. I hope this links work for you.

    https://feedback.wizards.com/forums/...ible-when-chan

    https://feedback.wizards.com/forums/...lay-as-a-meddl
    Last edited by pettdan; 04-23-2020 at 10:48 AM.

  14. #274
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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    I've been testing a couple of different builds recently. Polukranos, Unchained is actually working very well so far.. It has a lot of sweet synergy with the deck. Pretty good value off of a recruiter, but can also be GSZed for. Use Soulherder to reset its counters every turn, letting you hit with a 6/6 and shoot down a creature or two every turn. Bounce it with Karakas to reset it and protect it vs StP. It basically ignores Coatl and Strix. Use Meren to recur it. Also, you can often escape it. Also, it's probably great vs Oko since it becomes a super elk.

    Anyway, here's an enchantment list I tested briefly. The versions I've tried have been working surprisingly well vs Lurrus Delver, but it's rather limited testing and not league games so it doesn't say much.



    Some comments about the list:
    - This list has Jegantha as companion, or else I'd try to add Arasta of the Endless Web or Archon of Sun's Grace to the maindeck. Also, because of Jegantha I had to cut True-Name Nemesis and Mirran Crusader. Jegantha has been ok. Sometimes there's an opposing Karakas in play and I don't have Vial to beat Karakas, other times it comes in and does work. Not sure if it's worth it yet.
    - Kunoros has some dissynergy with Recurring Nightmare, allthough I think you can just sacrifice it to RN to ignore that hopefully, and with Meren, but I'm testing it for now.
    - The manabase is suboptimal, the fetches should be Misty Rainforests.

    Enchantment package:
    2 Oath of Nissa
    2 Sylvan Library
    2 Banishing Light
    1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
    1 Recurring Nightmare
    2 Setessan Champion
    1 Doomwake Giant


    I've been thinking Setessan Champion has some serious power since it was spoiled. I think a Sylvan Plug shell would be best (cantripping Chokes anyone?), with the direction of that list depending of course on where the meta is currently at (such as choke or not, probably not right now, idk). Another card I've been thinking a lot about during the Oko reign is Recurring Nightmare, it just ignores Oko and grinds out a lot of value. I'd love to play it with a creature that destroys planeswalkers, but they are too expensive. And with Setessan Champion, RN looks like a pretty ridiculous card advantage and value engine. I really like it with Volrath's Shapeshifter, but due to MTGO bugs I can't play that card anymore.

    Oath of Nissa fizzled once already, so I'm not sure if it's playable here. The enchantment theme rarely came together perfectly, but it was still pretty good, so I'd say it's still testable. Banishing Light might be better as Detention Sphere, but due budgeting I'm sticking with the cheaper option (that I was given for free with my account). Eidolon of Rhetoric seems like a decent hatebear and the synergy with the Setessan Champions makes it seem maindeckable to me but I'm not sure about that.

    I'm trying to figure out which enchantments can be added to make this shell stronger. Here's a list of other cards I'm considering but I'm still looking for other options:

    Serra's Sanctum
    Destiny Spinner
    Sterling Grove
    Sacred Mesa
    Riptide Chimera
    Food Chain
    Klothys, God of Destiny
    Archon of Sun's Grace
    Aluren
    Kestia, the Cultivator
    Chromanticore


    Just to discuss one card, Chromanticore is pretty sweet, being playable with Jegantha, Vial, GSZ or just a bop and some lands in play its a quite possible addition. Coming in as a cantrip with a champion in play, being a threat that can be protected by Karakas is sweet vs control decks (with the downside of Karakas being superpopular in the format), bestowing a creature makes it a real Oko beater (bestowed creature becomes a super-elk), and being a legend means you can Karakas-bounce it to reset the elk status (if opponent elks the Chromanticore). Also, it seems like a real gamewinner vs Delver decks. Can even Karakas+Vial bounce it with a champion in play to draw extra cards. Only missing a Volrath's Shapeshifter to cheat it into play (discard so the shapeshifter is copying it) or just discarding it with Shapeshifter or Fauna Shaman so Recurring Nightmare can bring it back indefinitely.
    Last edited by pettdan; 05-02-2020 at 02:14 PM.

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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Tested a little bit with Painter in a MOST list. Mostly because I want to run maindeck blasts. It's a bit clunky as it is, manabase is not optimal (Wooded Foothills can't find Tundra). Too few artifacts. I think it needs -1 Welder, -1 Engineer, +2 value stuff. If I wanted to spend more tix on it I'd run Imperial Recruiter over the white one. At that point, might as well cut out more white and add more Strixes. May try that if I acquire those cards later.

    Anyway, I'll just drop it here for now. Maybe someone wishes to test something similar at some point in the future.



    The sideboard has juicy Earwig Squad, and the rest is the usual stuff.

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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    I'm working on updating the primer now, just posting to inform anyone interested. Unforunately the notes I was taking in my phone during the last three years or so, on how to update the primer, was lost as my phone crashed so it will not be as extensively updated as would otherwise have been the case.

    Since a few months I'm looking at WURG because I think Fury is a very high quality card in this type of deck. You play Yorion since it provides great card advantage and grinding power, and as your vial hits 5 it's really nice to have access to flash Fury, not to mention flickering it with Yorion for extra triggers.

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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Why Fury instead of Solitude? Does the case of killing multiple small creatures come up more often? Solitude can pitch Yorion, so you can always have a white card for it, while Fury might not have a red card.

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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Why Fury instead of Solitude? Does the case of killing multiple small creatures come up more often? Solitude can pitch Yorion, so you can always have a white card for it, while Fury might not have a red card.
    I'm actually playing both but I think the ability to sweep the board and also hit planeswalkers is very valuable, and a lategame 3/3 double striker is also a bit more useful on the battlefield, probably.
    But I have a couple of Swords to Plowshares and also up to 1-2 Solitude in and out of lists as white count is the lowest in my last version.

    I'm mostly theorycrafting now with a couple of games every now and then. I've felt like Fury is probably more relevant, but I'm not sure that's a correct assessment.
    - Against control decks, it helps you clear potential blockers and ping off planeswalkers. Otoh, Solitude answering a potential Uro is also useful, but in general Fury seems more useful in this type of matchup.
    - Fury can answer early Delver and DRC's and Bowmasters, while Solitude answers Murktide Regent which Fury doesn't. I expect aggressive decks to be playing Orcish Bowmasters, often enough, and Fury seems like it has an advantage in such a metagame, but otoh it could be that the presence of Bowmasters in the meta makes the creatures that Fury shines against less played.
    - Against Painter, which I think is still reasonably well positioned, I imagine Fury answering Welders and Goblin Engineers as well as potentially Painter, is pretty great. While Solitude offers instant speed removal.
    - Against Reanimator and Show and Tell variants, the large-creature-based combo-decks, Solitude seems better.
    - Against Elves, DnT and Cephalid Breakfast, Fury seems better.
    - Against Turbo Forge, which has been getting a boost with The One Ring, and some extra talk, Fury answering an early Karn tGC could be very useful, while Solitude does nothing.

    Overall, my feeling is that Fury is a bit more impactful. Could be wrong, but that's what I'm building with.

    Edit: just returning to the post, to conclude I think that when Bowmaster is the format defining card, then Fury is better positioned as it's a clean answer giving you a strategic edge in such a matchup. If for example Emrakul, Marit Lage or Death's Shadow are very popular in the metagame, considered tier 1 decks, then the value of Solitude increases. However, as briefly implied, you can play Fury with Swords to plowshares in your maindeck (in e.g. a WURG version heavy on red) but if you go for Solitude over Fury, requiring dedicating the list to white which tends to reduce the amount of red cards, then it's harder to find a maindeckable or even sideboardable replacement for Fury. Plague Engineer perhaps comes closest to Fury in a list with a low red count, or Orcish Bowmasters (meaning you need to splash black, which is a common choice here). Neither Plague Engineer nor Bowmasters require a heavy dedication to black cards in your list, so they are more easy than Fury to include.

    I notice I didn't adress your comment about Yorion offering reliable pitching for Solitude. It is a very valid consideration, thank you, but the way I'm thinking now is that I want to start building a list by deciding on which the important inclusions are. So going for strategic aspects relative to the metagame over synergy. The advantage you mention does perhaps make Solitude more attractive in an unknown metagame. On the other hand, red does bring some free insulation to blood moon, it offers a maindeckable Magus of the Moon which can potentially win a few games here and there, it offers Imperial Recruiter finding different pieces than Recruiter of the Guard. There are so many factors.
    Last edited by pettdan; 08-19-2023 at 01:43 PM.

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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    One of the challenges for me in trying to tie alist together is getting enough card-count for the colors needed for Force of Will, Force of Negation, Endurance, Fury and Solitude. Some of the cards I'm considering for this are Lagrella, the Magpie (one of my favourite MOST/Xc Vial cards lately), Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes (already a given), Icefang Coatl (in the list but reduced due to Orcish Bowmasters, not sure how many copies to play, if any), Flame of Anor with Snapcaster Mage/Meddling Mage/other wizards, Omnath, Locus of Creation. Once Upon a Time potenially helps with finding the right colors on t0, so that's very nice.

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    Re: M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider

    Here are some deckbuilding decisions I'm weighing against each other right now. It's a bit quickly written so I'll probably return to edit the list. It's hard to fit all thoughts here.

    A couple of months back I decided it was time to splash red for Fury, Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes, Magus of the Moon and red blasts so I cut black. I've splashed for Magus and blasts before, it's been a fairly standard 5th color although I try to avoid that since a few years. And cutting Birds of Paradise has made it more difficult, too. Anyway, with Bowmasters around, the question is more open as to which should be the 4th or even 3rd color as I've started to scale down on white cards.

    Fury is a powerful free to cast board wipe that does interact with planeswalkers, and having access to this in a list is a natural advantage. And once Vial gets to 5 counters, where you want it anyway due to Yorion, you have a very powerful eot etb effect, untapping and attack for 6 damage. And if you can flicker it with Yorion that's also quite good. If playing ephemerate or reanimation effects, it's also a very potent target. Flickering it with Lagrella is pretty nice, with the 2 +1/+1 counters it hits for 10 damage. Fable of the Mirror-Breaker is another potentially good red inclusion. All modes are relevant, in basically all decks, but for a 4-color deck, the mana fixing is very valuable, the low amoung of cantrips we usually run does make the filtering really good, and finally the copy effect is perfect for this type of deck that runs loads of creatures with etb-effects.

    I've been drawn to a Bant-base for lists because green offers Endurance, Abundant Growth, Once Upon a Time and Lagrella (won't go into blue and white here or this would turn into a primer). Endurance is a FoW that interacts with both graveyard based combo, control (Uro from the blue control decks or Life from the Loam from Lands-decks) and aggressive decks (blocking Delver, DRC) while potentially providing card advantage in fair matchups as a surprise blocker opposite to FoW which typicall provides card disadvantage. Abundant Growth is basically an Arcum's Astrolabe for green-based decks, which does help with the 4-color builds I usually like, while also making Yorion better by turning it into a cantrip. Once Upon a Time is a pretty nice way to find t0 interaction for graveyard-based combo (finding Endurance, potentially Solitude) which helps avoiding mulligans by finding lands when needed and also helping enabling a 4-color-manabase, and if you're running flash spells like Icefang Coatl, Endurance, Force of Negation/Will and maybe even Snapcaster mage, OuaT is easy to cast at eot if you didn't need to use the others. Lagrella, the Magpie has been very good but I've only been playing test games so it's a bit unreliable. Lagrella deserves her own section in the primer, but to put it short, Esper Vial has been a pretty good deck for a few years and it's been focusing on bouncing/flickering permanents recently, and Lagrella flickers two permanents at a time which is huge, bounces with Karakas, boosts your creature, pitches to Forces, Endurance and Solitude and can be found with GSZ. However it can't be tutored with Recruiter of the Guard. Typically I've run 1-2 GSZ and 1 Spellseeker to find GSZ, Recruiter can then find Spellseeker for GSZ if needed.

    Green furthermore has sideboard options in Carpet of Flowers, basically extra vials in blue matchups, and Collector Ouphe is a pretty powerful hatebear. Haywire Mite is a valuable inclusion for The One Ring and Kaldra Compleat. There are more options but these above are perhaps the more important ones.

    Which color splashes to run (in addition to WUG or perhaps even competing with them)?

    • Black and red splash?
    Orcish Bowmasters + Fury, which means I'd need to cut blue or white, and I'm not sure which is better. I did start building WUBR yesterday and it seems ok too, so cutting green is also a consideration.

    • Black or red splash?
    Orcish Bowmasters (WUBG) or Fury (WUGR), I'm experimenting with different lists. Fable of the Mirror-Breaker is another potential red inclusion.

    • Red splash, with green:
    Punshing Fire (answers Bowmasters for free, immune to Scam/Grief because they can't discard the Grove and if they discard the Fire you can potentially get it back), meaning I probably play WUGR. Also enables Lagrella + Omnath (see comment below) and Flame of Anor (comment below). Imperial Recruiter can be played over Recruiter of the Guard, which has the advantage of letting you tutor for Lagrella but prevents finding Solitude. I've typically tried building with 3 Imperials and 1 RotG. Also Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heros.

    Deck building decisions
    • 4 Gilded Drakes + bounce/flicker effects (Lagrella, Charming Prince, Barrin etc). This combination of cards takes up quite a number of card slots, depending on how many bounce effects you want to run. Gilded Drake can do a good job of stealing Bowmasters, the Bowmaster effect doesn't interact with it, and works great in a meta full of large creatures like Murktide Regent and Death's Shadow. I'm not sure if there are enough large creatures around, so I haven't fully gone for this yet. Sometimes I put 1-2 Drakes in the main and sideboard, different configurations, and try to play a few extra bounce and flicker effects.

    • Snapcaster Mage + Flame of Anor, trying to maximize the amount of wizards being played

    • I have started pulling down on the amount of Icefang Coatls and Baleful Strixes which doesn't feel great and so I'm considering alternative card advantage that is less vulnerable to Bowmasters:
    - Flame of Anor perhaps, even though it's also card draw which is vulnerable to opposing Bowmasters, it does potentially answer Bowmaster and the card advantage it can provide together with Snapcaster Mage seems quite potent.
    - Shaman of the Great Hunt is one of my favourite cards from around 2016-2018 iirc and I'm thinking of including it again, but an issue I come upon is that it needs the white recruiter to find it while white and red tend to compete for card slots to enable pitching to Fury or Solitude in my lists. We'll see. It's good against Bowmasters, I believe, because it has 2 toughness and boosts your entire team while potentailly drawing cards if/when needed. The haste is also good against the initiative effect and planeswalkers.
    - Barrin Tolarian Archmage is a potential card advantage engine with Karakas, so this seems like a good replacement as it already is a very useful card in the deck and pretty consistently a 1 of in deck lists to recruiter for. However, the three-mana slot is usually very occupied.
    - Stoneforge Mystic did gain a lot of attraction with Bowmasters' entry into the format, and I was already usually playing it, but adding Furys to my lists has put a lot of color requirements on the deck building so I don't seem to be able to afford the equipment package.
    - Omnath, Locus of Creation is great for pitching to FoW, FoN, Fury and Solitude. Also Force of Vigor if I was playing it, which is a consideration although I never quite wanted to. It's a card drawing spell that perfectly replaces Coatl and Strix in a Bowmaster meta, except for the mana cost of course. But allowing pitching of spells does compensate a bit. Also it can be Karakas-bounced, which the other two can't.
    - Samwise the Stouthearted enables graveyard recursion. Easiest use is perhaps at the end of turn2 after you fetch, ensuring a third land drop. Similarly it's great with Wasteland. The ring tempting effect makes one of your creatures legendary so you can bounce it with Karakas for additional value, and you can always bounce Samwise to make it a card advantage engine. He's also good with the pitch elementals, letting you bring them back so you actually only spend one card to get the pitch elementals etb effect. This card deserves a small section in the primer.

    • I loved playing Grief + Animate Dead/Ephemerate a few months back but I'm budget conscious on MTGO, trying to preserve the collection value, and sold them when they spiked so I'm priced out of them for the time being. There are so many options anyway, it seems fine.

    • Spellseeker + Ephemerate + Eternal Witness. This was a given combination for me the last couple of months but adding Fury and the existence of Bowmaster did make me cut Witness. May come back. Also, there's now Samwise the Stouthearted for similar, but different, graveyard recursion. He only works with permanents and only on the same turn they left, and usually you want to bring back Swords to Plowshares or a threat that was countered or destroyed a few turns back.

    Charming Prince is well positioned thanks to getting back your creatures that the opponent may have reanimated, a popular tactic for Scam decks. It's also good to provide card advantage with 2 toughness and potentially without involving card draw for when needed.

    • Cavern of Souls or Wasteland. Wasteland is great with Samwise but a bit demanding for a 4-color manabase. Cavern does put a strong requirement on creature types but if using Flame of Anor that seems like a good potentail list for it. But probably using the human creature type rather than the wizard type. I could see trying an Abzan list with Samwise and Wasteland, but it's a real shame Bowmasters has made Thalia seem like a liability in deckbuilding.

    • Natural Order. I've considered trying a green-heavy list with Natural Order, Atraxa and perhaps Teferi or Allosaurus Shepherd. Perhaps also Delighted Halfling since we can easily be a legend-heavy deck.

    • Food Chain. As I was playing Grief, which I mentioned above, around January, I realized that Food Chain would be able to use the mana from pitch elementals efficiently, and Grief is the perfect one since it lets you clear the way for a Recruiter chain starting with Grief. I only played it a little but I wanted to use Tourach, Dread Cantor as an easy payoff for a single Recruiter in fair matchups, and blue control decks were running loads of StPs and Prismatic Endings at the time iirc so it was a great fair wincon; also I was thinking of Bladecoil Serpent as a way to empty the opponent's hand. I'll have to dig for more of the synergies I was playing. Oh, I ended up with Aeve, Progenitor Ooze as a wincon that Recruiters can find, immune to FoW and also useful with Vial and Karakas. Titania, Protector of Argoth is another good fair value payoff after resolving the Grief-discard.

    • With the printing of Orcish Bowmasters, an Aluren approach to MOST/4c Vial again seems promising. Bowmasters is the first wincondition since Orzhov Pontiff was a hot card that deserves its spot by itself and this one even as a four of. Cavern Harpy is, like always, pretty good in the deck, letting you get extra etb-effects from the black and blue creatures (more Bowmaster pinging, more card draw with Coatl/Strix, potential life gain if playing Uro, resetting Plague Engineer, more bounce effects and potential soft-lock with Venser).

    PS sorry for the constant editing, must be hard to read while Im making updates.
    Last edited by pettdan; 09-23-2023 at 07:55 AM.

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