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Thread: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

  1. #61
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I started testing something very similar to Jack's new version of the list. I would say this...

    a. LOVE the idea of increasing the canonist count. It does so much against a lot of our bad match-ups (storm, elves, Aluren, even burn). It also interacts very well against all the attrition decks running around. Snapcaster is just bad against it. And if you have a blast in hand or welder on the table, canonist protects the combo amazingly well. I always played canonist in my shortcake list when I was playing it and always loved it. Having said that, I also agree that 3 is probably the right number in the main.

    b. I'm also okay with cutting down the blood moon count. Unless you are playing 8 of them (magus) and can consistently drop one on turn one, it definitely has diminishing returns. However, this creates a couple challenges in deck construction. First, I think adding a magus is probably right. It crews copter and it's searchable with recruiter. Second, I think you need to reconsider your mana base. 19 lands with no cantrips is probably not enough. The fast mana was to turn one a blood moon more consistently. I would recommend going up on the land count and cut 1-2 fast mana. Out of all the games that I test my biggest problem was getting land screwed, by far.

    c. I really think you need at least 6 blasts in the main. it's part of what really makes canonists good. And blue is still pretty popular in the format.

    d. lavaman has not been that impressive to me. This might be because I was only running one copy and it always died before I could activate it. in the dozen or so games I played. I didn't actually activate it once. Part of the problem is that it suffers from the same issue as Jaya and heretic for that matter, and that's summoning sickness. Not saying either of these are absolutely wrong, but I was just hoping for more. This might be one situation where having this effect on legs isn't worth it. I've actually been playing cursed scroll in my grixis build and it's been surprisingly good. Just a thought.

    e. as for confluence, I would agree with Seth. I LOVE confluence as a card and tried it a little in my version. It's so powerful and against D&T in particular it just wrecks. However, in this deck, it has just felt too slow. I think the combo of abrade and pyroclasm is probably the way to go.

    Anyway, kudos Jack for the canonist innovation. I think it will be pay off in spades. Also interested in how Karn will look in the deck.

  2. #62
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    As far as mana base changes are concerned, I've been thinking about moving from petals to Mox diamonds. It gives you repeatable white mana that is immune to blood moon and wasteland. It's also a good way to use multiple city's more effectively. I am a little worried about 20 lands not being enough to support diamond though.

  3. #63
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by NormalGuy View Post
    As far as mana base changes are concerned, I've been thinking about moving from petals to Mox diamonds. It gives you repeatable white mana that is immune to blood moon and wasteland. It's also a good way to use multiple city's more effectively. I am a little worried about 20 lands not being enough to support diamond though.
    You want atleast 23-24 lands to support mox diamond and that is probably cutting it close. In general mox diamonds are used for fixing mana, so they can be thought of as supplementing lands rather than replacing them. What problems are you having with petals? You really don't need a repeatably white source unless you are playing any of the Rw walkers in my experience in which you might just be better off playing a basic Plains and 4 Arid Mesas.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  4. #64
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    You want atleast 23-24 lands to support mox diamond and that is probably cutting it close. In general mox diamonds are used for fixing mana, so they can be thought of as supplementing lands rather than replacing them. What problems are you having with petals? You really don't need a repeatably white source unless you are playing any of the Rw walkers in my experience in which you might just be better off playing a basic Plains and 4 Arid Mesas.
    Well, in a list with at least 6 white spells I agree that petals might not be enough. If going to 20 lands, I would definitely play a plains. I agree though about mox diamond. Not enough lands. Maybe one chrome mox would be reasonable. I think I would just play 20-21 land and 4 fast Mana.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  5. #65
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by drude1 View Post
    Well, in a list with at least 6 white spells I agree that petals might not be enough. If going to 20 lands, I would definitely play a plains. I agree though about mox diamond. Not enough lands. Maybe one chrome mox would be reasonable. I think I would just play 20-21 land and 4 fast Mana.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Ah whoops, my bad. Still not used to thinking about a 4 canonist version of this deck. Either way I wouldn't recommend mox diamond.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  6. #66
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    That is an interesting thought of reworking the mana base with the transition away from Blood Moon turn one. I think in doing so we should consider a few points:

    1. You are still looking to maximize the amount of games that you have 2 mana turn one, 4 mana turn two, with a potential for 5+ on turn three. With this in mind, fast mana still plays a huge role in completing this. Although this does lead to some consistency issues.

    2. While in the past mountain into SDT, go was a viable play, now we really need two mana on the first turn due to the requirements of Copter. While Ancient Tomb does this the best, I will routine blow a petal or SSG to get a Copter on turn one. SO while we may not need 3 as often on the first turn, we basically always want at least 2 on the first turn, which I think is important to keep in mind.

    3. Ensuring high cheap artifact count is always a critical issue to ensure that Welder is as strong as he possibly can be

    4. The requirement for colored mana sources is still fairly low per turn and per game basis. The deck was designed to be close to colorless. This allows us to look at other lands that can produce mana, sometimes with upside. Something like Crystal Vein as a singleton may be what you need. I haven't tested it, but its ability to be an additional land while also giving you a ramp on demand is interesting.

    5. Due to being a Stompy mana base, and not blue, we have to accept some variance and difficulty with colored mana stability to increase the explosiveness to justify the weakness of the core of the deck.

    6. Mox Diamond as a 3 of probably is not correct as our land count is too low in general. However I could see a one of in the deck sort of the way some Faerie Stompy lists run. This may be worth looking at. Also in this vein, we may want to look at a singleton Chrome Mox. I have a hard time seeing more than one of these working as the card disadvantage is brutal, but as a singleton it can give repeatable colored mana, and due to the exile effect, it is rarely countered making it a great fodder for Welder as the game goes on.

    With that all being said I do think looking at the mana base in the future will be something we need to do. I was talking with Jack as to how to go through moving the deck forward. I love all the ideas and testing and I do really like the Canonist increase and have been doing well with it online. One thing we need to be mindful of is that too many changes at once can make it hard to find the signal from the noise in testing. I have switched over to also working on the maindeck again, looking at counts of Canonist and Blood Moon. I am leaning towards a 4/1 split as that is what I have been testing, but transitioning to 3/2 may be correct. Since that is the case, looking at fine tuning the board will have to wait a bit. Likewise, I would hold off on working on the mana base too much in the short term just to reduce the new information.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  7. #67
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Just some more general thoughts I had about potential choices:

    Expanding on what Seth and Dan said regarding the lower blood moon count, if testing ends up finding that 2 moon effects maindeck are the right call then I definitely think exploring a 1-1 split of Magus and Blood Moon could be very good. Obviously the main appeal of magus is how it expands our toolbox and synergizes with copters. I'm still not sure if 4-1 Canonist/Moon just ends up being better than a 3-2 or a 3-1-1 split, mainly because of how much stuff Magus ends up having to deal with, be it push/bolt/stp/k-command/term etc. The tradeoff we have to explore is whether having Recruiter being being able to find a crewable moon is worth having those removal spells gain value. If we are examining it purely from a 'my non-combo piece ate some removal', then yes, Magus is surely the play over the 2nd Moon. Another important factor to consider is how much value/impact we expect to get from this Moon spot. That is where I think the answer is less clear, as Blood Moon is vastly superior to Magus in most matchups, even if the 2nd copy isn't recruitable. I mean at the end of the day, weren't a lot of us just not even playing Magus at all in the 75? I'm just not convinced yet (but could be) that just because playing 2 moon effects main is the path we choose that we should make one of those a magus. The extra sideboard slot would also need to be considered here, as I still think the 4th copy of Blood Moon in the 75 is still better than the 1st copy of Magus. Good thoughts though.

    Another comment about the manabase and fast mana. 19 lands is very low still yes, and we don't have top to help. That said, Copter has been showing up enough to help out a bit, so I'm not ready to start adding lands at the expense of fast mana. Part of that is how I am going about playing the deck now. In the very few games so far that I have been playing Canonist, I've been viewing it a lot like I would Blood moon in prior builds, powering it out early and on turn 1 if the opportunity is there (very situation dependent as in the dark going copter is still probably the better line). Besides auto winning vs storm, dropping it turn 1 blind still completely screws up all the decks playing probe. Second, having the 4 petals greatly increases the chance of playing out something relevant like a stone/welder while keeping up etutor for whatever we need to grab end of opponent's turn. The numbers could certainly be changed based on how you view the deck playing out, be it adding a land etc, just know that the deck will be ever so slightly slower and ever so slightly different, which should always be kept in mind with boarding. If Canonists end up being as good as they have so far and we keep 3-4 main, I don't think any number of Chrome Mox is playable since its an artifact. Mox Diamond can probably work, but I would transition more towards the 20-21 land ideas other have briefly mentioned and trying to figure out the numbers there.
    Strawberry Shortcake

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  8. #68
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I have done more testing with the increased Canonist count. I have really liked 4/1 split with Blood Moon. Right now I would think that is where we need to be as the card is so rarely dead. The increased ability to crew is also really nice and it is a great way to increase the dude count overall in the deck. I want to get another 20 matches or so, but I think we are in a great place with the main deck. I still need to test Grixis delver, but I think at this point the main deck is really well positioned against BUG, Miracles, Elves, Various Pile lists, and Tendrils right now. Grixis Delver has been favorable I think, although its a small sample size with the dropping Blood Moon counts.

    Things to work on moving forward:

    1. Adjusting the side board to address the rest of the meta once the main deck and its match ups are decided
    2. Evaluating the mana base. I think we should hold off on this to reduce the confusion in to many things going on in the testing. It should be re evaluated although I think it will be a small change of probably a land or type of fast mana, so doubtful it will be drastic.
    3. Evaluation of the foils to the meta we use. With reworked mana base and decreased reliance on Blood Moon having overlapping and different answers to problems will be important. Things like a singleton Peacekeeper and the like should probably be re evaluated now.
    4. Evaluation of the final 2 utility spots in the main deck. Currently artifact hate that Recruiter can grab is sort of a must so we will remove that from the discussion. With that in mind, it is really Ensnaring Bridge, the sixth blast, EE, or possibly the 4th E tutor to fill these last 2 spots. There also could be other cards that we have not thought of.
    5. Testing Karn. He seems really strong. Def a great card against all the fair decks and Miracles in the format. I think we will need to first see if he does play as well as he appears. After that we will need to figure out if he is a win more card in most match ups, meaning he is a side board card, or if he functions as a more critical win condition, that can add to the increased cards we see in a given game, making him strong enough to start in the maindeck.

    That is sort of where I am thinking I will be focusing my attention on over the next week or so.

    I am also thinking about streaming the deck in the next couple days. Its doubtful I will get my shit together and pick up Karns online just yet, but I could do something Sunday night and maybe Monday night. Would that be something people would want, maybe blow through a league.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  9. #69
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Sorry for the double post, but I do think we need to seriously consider not having Magus of the Moon in the 75. He is awesome against BUG, but most of the other decks where you want a moon effect now run red removal. BUG is already a very favorable match up, and with the increase in Punishing Fire throughout the meta makes using him really dicey.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  10. #70

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I played jack list. Just amazing
    I think i Want to play 2 new karn i did it turn 2 vs bug 2 clock token then he conced.
    Cannoniste main deck is really fine.
    I just cut one mountain for one plain and cut 3 feitch for 3 arid Mesa
    Every match i was enjoy to play canoniste and keep a blast Back up for painter

    I will play your list for birmingham.

    I played vs br rea, bug control, grixis, infect
    Last edited by Cyanhur; 04-21-2018 at 12:13 PM.

  11. #71

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    If you do end up streaming what is your twitch handle?

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    I have done more testing with the increased Canonist count. I have really liked 4/1 split with Blood Moon. Right now I would think that is where we need to be as the card is so rarely dead. The increased ability to crew is also really nice and it is a great way to increase the dude count overall in the deck. I want to get another 20 matches or so, but I think we are in a great place with the main deck. I still need to test Grixis delver, but I think at this point the main deck is really well positioned against BUG, Miracles, Elves, Various Pile lists, and Tendrils right now. Grixis Delver has been favorable I think, although its a small sample size with the dropping Blood Moon counts.

    Things to work on moving forward:

    1. Adjusting the side board to address the rest of the meta once the main deck and its match ups are decided
    2. Evaluating the mana base. I think we should hold off on this to reduce the confusion in to many things going on in the testing. It should be re evaluated although I think it will be a small change of probably a land or type of fast mana, so doubtful it will be drastic.
    3. Evaluation of the foils to the meta we use. With reworked mana base and decreased reliance on Blood Moon having overlapping and different answers to problems will be important. Things like a singleton Peacekeeper and the like should probably be re evaluated now.
    4. Evaluation of the final 2 utility spots in the main deck. Currently artifact hate that Recruiter can grab is sort of a must so we will remove that from the discussion. With that in mind, it is really Ensnaring Bridge, the sixth blast, EE, or possibly the 4th E tutor to fill these last 2 spots. There also could be other cards that we have not thought of.
    5. Testing Karn. He seems really strong. Def a great card against all the fair decks and Miracles in the format. I think we will need to first see if he does play as well as he appears. After that we will need to figure out if he is a win more card in most match ups, meaning he is a side board card, or if he functions as a more critical win condition, that can add to the increased cards we see in a given game, making him strong enough to start in the maindeck.

    That is sort of where I am thinking I will be focusing my attention on over the next week or so.

    I am also thinking about streaming the deck in the next couple days. Its doubtful I will get my shit together and pick up Karns online just yet, but I could do something Sunday night and maybe Monday night. Would that be something people would want, maybe blow through a league.

    Seth

  12. #72

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanhur View Post
    I played jack list. Just amazing
    I think i Want to play 2 new karn i did it turn 2 vs bug 2 clock token then he conced.
    Cannoniste main deck is really fine.
    I just cut one mountain for one plain and cut 3 feitch for 3 arid Mesa
    Every match i was enjoy to play canoniste and keep a blast Back up for painter

    I will play your list for birmingham.

    I played vs br rea, bug control, grixis, infect
    Good luck in Birmingham! If you have the time for a tourney report please do send one, i for one love those things

    @Seth - if you stream do share your twitch handle and ideally upload a video for non-live viewing, would love to watch a master at work. no pressure though, i know it's a bit of a thing to set it all up.
    Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest

  13. #73
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Ok so I have never streamed before but I am working on setting it up so that can have a trial run. May be rough, but its a start.

    handle is the same as my mtgo account: goblinmutant141

    I will post more Sunday am, I will try either Sunday or Monday.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  14. #74
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Ok. So I tried to set up twitch. Apparently it’s tough on a laptop. If anyone can help that would be awesome as I am just not that good with computers anymore. I have an hp laptop if that helps.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  15. #75

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    Good luck in Birmingham! If you have the time for a tourney report please do send one, i for one love those things

    @Seth - if you stream do share your twitch handle and ideally upload a video for non-live viewing, would love to watch a master at work. no pressure though, i know it's a bit of a thing to set it all up.
    Thanks:! Yes i will make a report.

  16. #76
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    Ok. So I tried to set up twitch. Apparently it’s tough on a laptop. If anyone can help that would be awesome as I am just not that good with computers anymore. I have an hp laptop if that helps.

    Seth
    Unless you have an older computer, you should be able to stream MTGO. When I streamed for a while I used Darkest_Mage's guide on setting it up initially and didn't play with it much past that. I don't know if any of it got deprecated but it might help.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  17. #77
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    Ok. So I tried to set up twitch. Apparently it’s tough on a laptop. If anyone can help that would be awesome as I am just not that good with computers anymore. I have an hp laptop if that helps.

    Seth
    Are you using xSplit? That's what I've been using and I'm pretty sure that's what Jack used to use. It saves all the settings for you so you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time. It also manages the twitch interaction for you. And it's FREE!!!

  18. #78

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Hi there,

    I'm rather new to "current Magic" as I haven't played for about 10 years. I was just wondering and sorry if this question has already been asked but do you recommend a deck like this in whatever build you have already mentioned for a new player to Legacy? I tried to play a R/W Painter deck recently that I found online but had to take the Tops out as I didn't realise they were banned. It's only for FNM so I'm allowed to proxy for now until I get more cards.

    Really enjoying all these posts on this great deck. Do I need to ask permission to use any of the above mentioned decks or shall I just let you know how the deck went.

    Thanks
    :)

  19. #79

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Hi Matfow, welcome to Legacy! I don't think you need to ask for permission, and I'm pretty sure the people here would love to hear your thoughts on the deck and any experiences or insights you might have as you play it

    Is it good for new players? It's a combo deck, but once you figure out the combo it's pretty straightforward. You have to be aware of your opponent's possible cards a lot though, since much of the gameplay is playing around what they might have. So on that front it might be a bit difficult to play well if you're brand new to the format. At the same time, since all you have to do is put two cards together to win, you will get some 'free wins' by just playing the combo and your opponent not being able to stop you.

    Hopefully that helps? Let us know if you have any further questions. I'm no expert but I'm happy to help and some people here have been playing the deck for many years.
    Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest

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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I'm kind of curious, what matchups do you guys think you really want Blood Moon for? The reason I ask is that I find that I mostly want it against decks with Dark Depths, and it sometimes can be a liability with the recent rule change. I am considering weather Deflecting Palm would be a superior card to fight Marit Lage. It can also possibly do some work against Emrakul and Griselbrand.

    This is the list I came up with where I really want blood moon currently: Turbo Depths, Lands, Eldrazi, Grixis Delver, Maverick

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