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Thread: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

  1. #681
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier of Fortune View Post
    Wow. I think we definitely play this in conjunction with the Welder. With this and E. Tutor, would we still need Recruiter? Def not all four, right?
    I think we cannot get rid of Recruiter. It adds too much consistency. However, I think 3 Recruiter, 3 Engineer, and 2 Welder is a real possibility. I'm not sure I could ever see us playing less than 3 Recruiter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
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  2. #682
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @ Recruiter- You still want 4 of the card. We don't want to drop card advantage tutors that fit our curve and improve consistency. More tutors and answers only strengthen the list, by reducing variance and increasing reach and options. Cutting a Recruiter would be counter to this. While the new goblin is cool, it is an Entomb, not a Trinket Mage or E tutor. We still need to reliably get the spell out of the graveyard and into play. Relying on dudes that die to everything can sometimes lead to failure so you still need to balance that as you build the deck. Recruiter is still one of the best cards in the deck bc it is so unred. this new welder actually allows Recruiter to finally grab Grindstone in a round about way. That is amazing, but the Entomb effect doesn't negate Recruiter, if anything it places more importance on the card bc we want to abuse Welder and the Engineer more going forward. And in the land of bolts and STP, finding more of them or Painters is too huge.


    Seth
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  3. #683
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I generally agree. My primary reason for suggesting possible cutting of 1 Recruiter is strictly for space reasons.

    Do you think Engineer completely replaces Welder? 0 Welder once Engineer is legal?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  4. #684
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Engineer makes welder better imo. I think I'm mono red I'm gonna start on 3 welder 2 engineer
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  5. #685

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I doubt Goblin Engineer would replace Goblin Welder. Goblin Welder is better on curve, and does not require mana for activation. Also, you can bait Welder activation, forcing your opponent to use graveyard hate, and not losing the card on board. Goblin Engineer forces you to sacrifice the artifact first. Both cards have merits. I am planning to test two copies of Goblin Engineer in mono-red.

  6. #686

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I put painter on the bench a little bit after top was banned, I started piecing it back together and the last couple of months have felt like Christmas! So pumped to get back to painting.

    I have been reading through some of what I missed (thanks guys for keeping the dream alive even when it was rough) is the general idea behind cutting moon effects is due to the increase of basics, or due to waiting more proactive cards?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

  7. #687
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @ Mirrislegend- about Welder, I want to echo and support what L10 said. We may end up cutting back on the number (although I don't think so). The casting cost and mana requirement are serious issues between the cards. While I am unsure where we end up, I can guarantee (new card reveals not withstanding) that the correct number of Welders in the deck is greater than or equal to 1 and the same can be said for the Engineer. I am included to try and endorse 3 each as they really serve as a compliment to one another rather than a replacement.

    Our real questions I think are as follows:

    1. What importance do we place on Blood Moon and its similar effects moving forward? This is a strong part of if and how we keep E tutor in the deck.

    2. What role does E tutor have in the deck? This is more in the utility of the spell and the lines that it opens.

    3. How can we best use the Engineer in the Shortcake shell? This is the part where we differ from I Painter as we still want minimal lock pieces and still want to focus on the combo kill. Its interactions and roles with existing cards will be importnat to understand. In theory he allows us to be more consistent, and resilient all at once. Both him and Welder make Copter stronger, meaning we likely want at least 3 going forward.

    4. The role of white in the deck moving forward? This will hinge on the answers of the previous questions. there are many moving pieces affecting this decision. More Welder effects makes Great Furnace continue to gain value. In current lists it is hard to really run more than one, so upping that count would require cutting into fetch lands or Plateaus. Canonist can be replaced by other effects with similar value. Fetchlands are less important now that we have completely moved away from the Lavaman.

    My gut tells me Blood Moon, and the speed and utility of E tutor are still incredible strengths of the deck and we need to maintain them going forward. If that is the case, then we really only need to focus on question 3. But I think we need to consider the first 2 questions.

    But we always want 4 Recruiters and we should strive to increase the consistency of the deck, not decrease it. While this new goblin seems very strong we need to test it. And while I think it will have a nice impact on our deck, it is unlikely as big a game changer or strong as Karn is.

    Seth
    Öno matter how much you think you love somebody, youíll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  8. #688

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I would never cut Blood Moon entirely from the deck. Itís a one-card combo that just wins games. In a vacuum, itís probably the most powerful card in the entire deck.

    The Engineer is cool, but Iíd only run one. I still think Welder is far superior, regardless of the existence of Chalice of the Void. Although, this is anecdotal, because Iíve never played with it before.
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  9. #689
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    To those wondering about the strengths of moon right now, this past weekend I played against Miracles and blade both having 6 or more basics and moon was incredibly powerful. It makes it very hard for them to find white Mana and their white cards are really the only cards you care about. Even if they find white some of those decks lean on councils judgement a bit more than they should and cutting them from double white is also great
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  10. #690
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @ Blood Moon- Yeah I figure its worth keeping moon in the deck. But I also think its a real question we should ask as we work through the next version. Ironically if we remove Blood Moon it may make the mono red route better for us. I am not really convinced, but we should still consider it for completeness.

    Seth
    Öno matter how much you think you love somebody, youíll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  11. #691
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I'm glad to see that the consensus is pro-Blood Moon. My issue is: 1 or 2 Blood Moon effects in the 75?

    The arrangement for 2 that I liked the most was 1 Blood Moon maindeck and 1 Magus of the Moon in the SB. For matchups where Blood Moon is really important, Magus is the ideal SB choice (post board: 1 Blood Moon + 3 Etutor +1 Magus + 4 Recruiter).

    However, I've started seeing lists that have 1 Blood Moon maindeck and nothing else. I'm not a fan but SB slots are especially precious due to the wishboard, so I suppose it makes sense.

    Thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  12. #692

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I do one and one: Blood Moon and Magus. Enlightened Tutor grabs one, while Recruiter grabs the other.
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  13. #693
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    I'm glad to see that the consensus is pro-Blood Moon. My issue is: 1 or 2 Blood Moon effects in the 75?

    The arrangement for 2 that I liked the most was 1 Blood Moon maindeck and 1 Magus of the Moon in the SB. For matchups where Blood Moon is really important, Magus is the ideal SB choice (post board: 1 Blood Moon + 3 Etutor +1 Magus + 4 Recruiter).

    However, I've started seeing lists that have 1 Blood Moon maindeck and nothing else. I'm not a fan but SB slots are especially precious due to the wishboard, so I suppose it makes sense.

    Thoughts?

    The short answer to all of the questions about testing and numbers is that we really don't know what will or won't work yet, we've barely even had time to properly test Karn.

    In the greater context of the deck, you have to remember that 'new' Shortcake is only a little more than a year old.

    For example, when I first started painting, Seth, Hollywood, and the others (rip Drew) had already been playing for four years, testing and refining the OG imperial lists. It was a lot easier to take their tuned lists and start jamming games to learn lines.

    Because of that, initial experimentation with the white splash was also accelerated since their base list was already so strong. This is another reason why the 4 top lists never really took off. The deck was based around Blood Moon and its ability to carry games, and it's also important to remember what the different metas were like at each point in time. When moon was plan 1a or 1b, spinning top turn after turn with only Recruiters and Grindstones for topdeck manipulation wasn't the best place to be.

    So back to now, even though Shortcake has technically been around for 6+ years now, the non-top Copter iterations are barely a year old, Karn has been out for less than a month, and on top of it all Engineer is another card that will demand space in the deck.

    Seth mentioned it earlier, but for years on end we didn't get any real printings. Some sideboard cards here and there sure, or a singleton recruiter target to test or whatever the fancy new red planeswalker was at the time. That gave everyone a lot of time to really hone in on those 1 or 2 slots that were underperforming in the 75 and fix accordingly.

    Everything is really up in the air right now. There are so many things to worry about now like the wishboard (Mike you ever try Burning Wish in the old lists?), a lack of real sideboard space, moon counts, welder/engineer dynamics, other tutor targets, manabase, etc.

    It's the Wild West right now. Every deck is adjusting to War of the Spark and now Modern Horizons.

    Best advice for now is to just keep painting, mess around with a lot of different configurations, and see what problems arise.

    And of course #FreeNedleeds
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  14. #694

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I get the excitement about Engineer, its amazing to see cards printed that so seamlessly fits into the Deck.

    The extra mana (in cost and activation) is a BIG deal though. Welder T1 is infinitely more impressive than Welder T2. Like Mom, it warps the way your opponent develops in the early game and often forces them into sub-optimal lines. The mana to activate, too, is important, especially in the early turns. If you're trying to jam the second piece, activate, and leave up a REB having that extra mana to activate starts to get dicey.

    That being said, obviously having a Welder with a tutor stapled to is is great. It just makes more sense to me to think of it as Welder 5-8 (or 4-6, whatever the split ends up being) than something that could replace the OG.


    Also, I'm with Kap. Iteration, iteration, iteration.

  15. #695

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Hisa View Post
    I get the excitement about Engineer, its amazing to see cards printed that so seamlessly fits into the Deck.

    The extra mana (in cost and activation) is a BIG deal though. Welder T1 is infinitely more impressive than Welder T2. Like Mom, it warps the way your opponent develops in the early game and often forces them into sub-optimal lines. The mana to activate, too, is important, especially in the early turns. If you're trying to jam the second piece, activate, and leave up a REB having that extra mana to activate starts to get dicey.

    That being said, obviously having a Welder with a tutor stapled to is is great. It just makes more sense to me to think of it as Welder 5-8 (or 4-6, whatever the split ends up being) than something that could replace the OG.


    Also, I'm with Kap. Iteration, iteration, iteration.
    It's not welder t1. It's entomb t2 welder t3 in one card.

  16. #696
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I don't know. I'm not sure about engineer yet. The benefit is definitely in imperial. The tutor factor in that deck is very good. On the other hand, it's a turn slower than e.tutor and doesn't get moon, not to mention surgical becomes a huge liability. I guess the question would be where does it fit? Does it replace copter? If so, do we go up on bridges? Tough call.

    Addendum: After gold-fishing with engineer for a while, I will definitely say that I am interested in this card. I replaced 1 canonist, smuggler's copter and moved a painter to the board in order to still play 4 karn. So tutor package in my deck is:
    4 karn
    3 recruiter
    3 engineer
    3 e.tutor
    (2 copter)

    That with 3 each of the combo pieces main and 1 in SB and I am definitely not having trouble putting the combo together. However, if an opponent was playing a lot of creature removal, then engineer may be a liability. Time will tell.
    I am also very pro-moon right now as people really seem to be getting greedy with their mana bases again. However, I HATE magus. 90% of the decks a moon effect is good against has maindeck answers to magus in the form of lightning bolt or punishing fires. The only deck magus is good against is specifically eldrazi post. So unless BUG gets really popular again, magus won't make my 75.
    Last edited by drude1; 05-23-2019 at 10:08 AM.

  17. #697
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I finally got in some good reps with Karn last night. He's insanely good. I'm very happy with 4 Karn and 20 land.
    However, I was able to acquire a cheap LED last night! What do I cut to fit it in?

    Maindeck (60 cards):
    4 Imperial Recruiters
    4 Painters Servant
    3 Goblin Welder
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 SSG

    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Grindstone
    3 Smugglerís Copter

    4 Pyroblast
    2 REB
    3 Enlightened Tutor

    4 Karn, the Great Creator
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Blood Moon

    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Mountain
    3 Plateau
    5 fetch lands
    2 Great Furnace

    Sideboard:
    3 Pyroclasm
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 REB
    1 EE
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Lattice
    1 Grindstone
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Tormodís Crypt
    1 Relic of Progentis
    1 Magus of the Moon

    I need to cut one MD slot for LED and I'm wondering if I should cut a SB card for Pithing Needle. I know Jack had -1 Magus, +1 Needle recently. I'm not sure how I feel about that when Moon effects are so strong against so many decks (especially combined with Karn!).

    Advice please! I'm going to be jamming Legacy all weekend long at GP Providence, starting tomorrow at the crack of dawn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  18. #698
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    I finally got in some good reps with Karn last night. He's insanely good. I'm very happy with 4 Karn and 20 land.
    However, I was able to acquire a cheap LED last night! What do I cut to fit it in?

    Maindeck (60 cards):
    4 Imperial Recruiters
    4 Painters Servant
    3 Goblin Welder
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 SSG

    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Grindstone
    3 Smugglerís Copter

    4 Pyroblast
    2 REB
    3 Enlightened Tutor

    4 Karn, the Great Creator
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Blood Moon

    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Mountain
    3 Plateau
    5 fetch lands
    2 Great Furnace

    Sideboard:
    3 Pyroclasm
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 REB
    1 EE
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Lattice
    1 Grindstone
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Tormodís Crypt
    1 Relic of Progentis
    1 Magus of the Moon

    I need to cut one MD slot for LED and I'm wondering if I should cut a SB card for Pithing Needle. I know Jack had -1 Magus, +1 Needle recently. I'm not sure how I feel about that when Moon effects are so strong against so many decks (especially combined with Karn!).

    Advice please! I'm going to be jamming Legacy all weekend long at GP Providence, starting tomorrow at the crack of dawn.
    Personally, if I only had 1 LED I would stick it in the SB and in your list cut the REB. Most others will probably tell you to cut the 20th land.

  19. #699

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    So, Iím curious: Why would you put LED in the board?
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  20. #700
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by drude1 View Post
    I don't know. I'm not sure about engineer yet. The benefit is definitely in imperial. The tutor factor in that deck is very good. On the other hand, it's a turn slower than e.tutor and doesn't get moon, not to mention surgical becomes a huge liability.
    I think us caring about Surgical is at an all-time low.
    With Karn being able to snag stuff out of the exile zone, we are literally able to assemble our combo from every zone in the game.

    Hand? Cast that shit.
    Library? Recruit/Engineer that shit.
    Graveyard? Weld/Engineer that shit.
    Exile/Silver Counter? 4-Drop Silver Surfer that shit.
    Sideboard? Kunning-Karn Wish that shit.

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