While I like macabre, I think surgical is better at least for my play style. Surgical comes in for combo and UW Control. There are plenty of times where if my opponent goes turn 1 ponder I will surgical the ponder. If they didn’t shuffle and were looking forward to that next card I just messed that up for them. If they had a ponder in hand it just acted as a discard effect as well. It also gave me information on what lines of play my opponent has. These are little things that I think make surgical superior over macabre.
Yeah, I agree... But it's close. I would actually rather have macabre against reanimator specifically, but every other MU it's probably surgical, particularly against any loam decks or other combo. I do also agree though that 1 macabre would probably be good do to the fact that you can recruit it.
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So I ended up going to the Leaving a Legacy tourney near Boston over the weekend. Much to my dismay, I could not back up my 4-0 performance at my LGS the week before and ended at 4-4. This was the Shortcake list splashing black for Daretti and nihil in the main and Chains, e.plague and (surgical) in the S.B. Just a quick recap of the tourney...
Rnd 1 lost very quickly and very badly to sneak & show 0-2. Both games he combo'd by turn 3 with Omniscience and won handily, even with me dropping a bridge in game 1.
Rnd 2 won 2-0 against a mono blue painter/Antiquities War deck (he was later on camera). I combo'd him out pretty quickly in both games.
Rnd 3 won against pox variant 2-1
Rnd 4 won 2-0 against UB reanimator splashing green and splashing a show and tell
Rnd 5 lost 0-2 decisively against U/R delver. The match was just poorly played by me. I blew all of my blasts on early threats (countered a TNN, and destroyed a delver and a pteromander) only for him to drop 2 more threats and win while he is blowing up my painters.
Rnd 6 lost 1-2 against Miracles and literally blew a line that had me winning on the spot in the third game (still so angry with myself I don't even want to talk about it...really rookie mistake)
Rnd 7 won 2-0 against U/W deathblade.
Rnd 8 lost 1-2 again to Miracles. Just got out resourced.
Should have been 5-3 and could have been 6-2 with some tighter play.
The black splash was good when I saw it but I honestly didn't see it much. Really wish I would have seen the Chains more against the control MU's but it just didn't happen. In one game I tutored for one on turn 1 but it got countered.
Anyway, I actually don't really want to focus on this deck too much and what is really difficult right now is that I feel like we are in limbo until the next set comes out. I have been just gold-fishing some lists with the new Karn and this is really where I want to concentrate my efforts. It just sucks that all testing until May is theoretical. Having said that, this is where I'm at with the list right now...
3 x Goblin Welder
3 x Mother of Runes (p.s. this was an all-star for me all day at the LaL)
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Goblin Cratermaker
4 x Painter's Servant
3 x Imperial Recruiter (I know, some still cringe at this, but I typically don't want to see more than 1 in a game)
3 x Grindstone (trying 1 in SB)
3 x Enlightened tutor (still important against fast MUs like other combo or for an early moon)
4 x Pyroblast
2 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Smuggler's Copter
1 x Blood Moon
1 x Ensnaring Bridge
3 x Karn, The Great Creator
4 x Lotus Petal (or maybe 3 x petal and 1 x Boros Signet)
Land (20)
4 x Ancient Tomb
2 x City of Traitors
2 x Bloodstained Mire
1 x Marsh Flats
4 x Arid Mesa
3 x Mountain
1 x Plains
2 x Plateau
1 x Great Furnace
SB (work in progress)
1 x Grindstone
1 x E.E.
1 x Tormod's Crypt
1 x Canonist/3sphere
1 x Pithing Needle (I went with this over Revoker as revoker was used primarily to shut off artifact mana abilities which Karn does now)
1 x Ensnaring Bridge
1 x Mycosynth Lattice (this combo is actually very attainable...more on this later)
2 x Blood Moon
4 x Leyline of the Void (especially if mulligan rule changes)
1 x Helm of Obedience (can leave in board and fetch with Karn)
1 x creature removal (probably artifact source such as Ballista, spellbomb, etc)
Copter is really good with Karn. If you have a copter, welder and karn in play you can get the lattice with karn, attack with copter and pitch the lattice and weld it back. 6 mana also isn't that hard to get to with this deck, although I am currently testing a boros signet over the 4th petal just because it sticks around and can give us recurrent W under a moon and can also be welded away for something like the lattice. I may even go to 2/2 split but that will get worked out in testing.
I have also been testing a version cutting one canonist and 1 blast for 2 Light up the Stage. The card was actually really good for me over the weekend. It again is particularly good in the control MUs and can be boarded out against the fast MUs but obviously is never dead. It does sometimes feel a little slow though and sometimes I found myself keeping bad hands with LutS because I would get brainstorm trapped ("the LutS will fix everything!").
I think it would depend on the meta.
Leyline/helm in the board is not necessary at all and I may likely switch that out to open up an extra slot or two for other useful artifacts. Building a "wish" sideboard is always a challenge. I like leyline with the new mulligan rule and I think you are always going to want to leave a crypt in the board for karn so leylines made sense in that regard as well, but those with helm takes up 5 slots, which is a lot.
There are also so many other cute artifacts to potentially include in the SB. But again, testing will be necessary.
Anyway, looking forward to brewing once the next set comes out. Kinda chomping at the bit with this one.
I'll also point out Karn can crew vehicles by turning them into creatures.
Vehicles retain creature stats when not a creature. Once they become a creature all the text becomes relevant.
Copter becomes 2/2 flying looter. Still great!
I’m wondering if liquimetal coating is worth playing with the new karn. At that point it might also be worth playing a dack faydon. I can imagine turning opposing libraries into dudes to pyroclasm.
...actually, it’s probably too cute to be good. The new karn I can imagine being great for the deck. What I think we really need is a transformational sideboard plan, since most of the time, people saiding against a wish board assumes that the side has more of the same (artifacts in this case). Going into leyline+helm kill could catch them off guard, thinking that they’d have more time to react.
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Liquimetal Coating is a *very* interesting card. It enables a lot of shenanigans with Goblin Welder and Dack Fayden, obviously, but I also like how it interacts with Transmute Artifact, Affinity, and Metalcraft. I'm not sure it's a good fit for Painter... maybe there's an UR(w) artifact control deck featuring Retrofitter Foundry hidden somewhere in the card pool using those cards (also running a Nahiri or Saheeli? And maybe the Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek combo?)... Lots of useful and cute interactions to be had. Probably too cute - but it does spur me to tinker a bit :)
Yea, but the enchantment sticks, and helm needs less mana than powering through the painter grindstone. And at least needle and revoker naming grindstone doesn’t stop helm.
Possibly the thing that gives an edge is that we cheat out one piece of the combo, and it’s much faster than the painter stone, and the opponents hate pieces slow them down from their plan too.
In testing, it’s been pretty good. Maybe it’s generally not any better though. I can see it being a solid step up against dredge and emrakul decks tho.
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Helm is also conditional on the basis of sticking a Leyline into play, otherwise it becomes effectively a dead slot out of the sideboard - and the last thing you care about is predicating your opening hand on Leyline of the Void. With Karn, you want to maximize your sideboard real estate where other cards like Tormod's Crypt (with Welder recursion) and Faerie Macabre (with Recruiter if opting for one or two non-artifact cards out of the board for hate) are smoother options and infinitely better off the top of the deck and with a mulligan to six with scry. If the new rule sticks, then sure - Leyline is better. But Leyline is a card you need to consider when leveraging the mulligan rule, because of the weight of needing it that it carries.
Karn for all intents and purposes changes the architecture of the sideboard into a "Wish" board, as such to maximize his utility. Helm with Leyline is fine if you want to go that route, but Pittplayer is correct: it does for all intents and purposes lose to the same hate.
Helm requiring less mana also doesn't make much sense, because the sequential nature of putting Grindstone and Painter into play can be measured by turns, not mana. In other words, if all you have is three mana over the course of the first three turns, that's all you'd need to win the game on turn three unimpeded. The opposing option is to 1.) Stick Leyline, 2.) Resolve Karn and get Helm, 3.) Cast and resolve Helm, and activate Helm unimpeded. This is also assuming you can find two Sol-lands which makes the likelihood of doing all of this expeditiously.
You're not doing this until turn five or six unimpeded unless you're playing in Magical Christmasland.
Agreed. However, your sequencing example makes me wonder about Karn's viability: he'll always consume significant tempo and resources to get what you want. His utility comes at a high price. As a result, I'm not sure we can lean on him as hard as some people say. I see him as a 1-of, maybe 2. Not that 3 to 4 that people are discussing.
When playing shortcake or imperial painter, I've had an immensely difficult time keeping artefacts and guys on the table.
It could just be my meta that is very skewed towards control, but if a deck does't play K.commands, it definitely sports decays and/or fatal pushes and other edict effects. It's why i look at the combo as a 6-mana win, with canonists, welders and moms as removal magnets over the previous few turns.
I suspect that for shortcake, karn might be a 'win more' games 2 and 3. There's nothing that E.tutor can't already get for you (and tutor can grab us hanna's custody where karn can't), and presumably you'd side in the cards you need games 2 and 3 (since firing off a 1 mana instant is easier than a 4 mana PW). He's a house game 1 though, since your opponents deck might not be able to deal with whatever silver bullet you have on the board.
That being said, I'm still excited to try it though. being able to make a copter swing in without having a guy in play seems good. And i can imagine he's a boss in the mirror.
Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Does Strawberry Shortcake care about the new Karn? He's just slower and more unwieldy than Enlightened Tutor. We're not in dire need of a wishboard. I think new Karn isn't for us. Thoughts?
The card lets you play a tutor board alongside e-tutor and recruiter, to effectively fetch most of the cards in the deck, turns extra artifacts into beaters (+ you can loot with copter) and helps you beat surgical extraction (a card that is basically a 2 off in any deck that doesn't play chalice). What is there not to like?
For as hard for me as it is to say, I'm not so sure Enlightened Tutor is better than Karn now. E-Tutor is a raw deal against Surgical Extraction, and I always find myself wondering if boarding out the Tutors is worth it against those decks. I mean, it's a great card still - I just have reservations using it in post-board games.
Karn has stretch in the long game, and in mono red builds has huge incidental help against fast combo like Storm (shutting down their artifacts). Being able to fetch an exiled Painter is just incredible, and can get those exiled cards off Surgical that E-Tutor can absolutely not do.
Shit, sorry I realized I was posting in the IP thread and not this one. To answer the question, yes we likely care very much about the new Karn. Comparing him to E tutor totally misses the point and power of the card. Wishes aren't and shouldn't be viewed as a tutor as they are more powerful and versatile than that. Fundamentally all variants of Painter are a creature combo deck that hopes to win outside the red zone. Our creature and key spells are also artifacts which can get fairly well hated on by this time in Legacy. Karn works to address all these weaknesses while adding reach and additional ways for th deck to interact.
Now he may not work out in practice but in theory these options are something Painter has never had. His ability to fight STP, Surgical, add targeted hate game one, while giving us increased ways to remove hate against us is huge. It is in this light that he is much more than just a value engine, which I agree isn't necessarily something Shortcake wants.
Now we can switch to Leyline in the board, making all ou graveyard match ups better. And he randomly gives us an opps I win with a tutorable Helm. This is huge bc the maindeck is not diluted at all yet more options are available. His ability to grab Crypt game one now makes Bridge and Combo a way to beat Sneak and Show game one. He makes all the Moon effects just better when we need them but turning off petals and mox, actually making Moon a hate piece against storm. The list can go on and on for the various match ups how he directly helps fight what they do or allows us to run targeted high value silver bullets in a manner that is no longer card disadvantage but also of greater breadth.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Sorry for the double post, but I think E tutor def still has a place in the deck. While new Karn does overlap with the card, ultimately they serve 2 different roles. E tutor also allows for some increased flexibility and speed that is needed in Legacy. I think that whatever happens with Karn, the number of Etutor will not drop below 2, and at that point its only due to true space constraints as its likely we want the first or third copy of a card more than the third Etutor, even though we still want the third Etutor.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
I think this is where I'm stuck. The Canonists (as spare 2 power creatures), Copters, and low number of Bridges all say (to me) that we should almost always consider the attack options. Whether it be as a bluff or just to force our opponent's plays or switch gameplans based on opponent plays, the creature beats are often relevant (to my understanding). The primer in the opening post definitely supports this point of view!
Also, interpreting that quote from a different perspective: if you want to win without attacking, then we need tutors for both combo pieces. Recruiter covers Painter but Grindstone has been left lacking. White splash provides Enlightened Tutor to cover that missing component (while also enabling some bullets). New Karn provides that tutor (and more bullets) without the need to splash white for Enlightened Tutor. If both pieces can be tutored for without splashing white, why splash white? New Karn makes mono-red painter super viable. It seems to me that New Karn and mono-red will go hand-in-hand, whereas Strawberry Shortcake just doesn't need him in the same way.
I think New Karn could be a solid sideboard card for Shortcake: our opponents bring in Surgicals, etc and we respond with New Karn.
Other than that, how does Shortcake justify a 4-mana, probably one-use card that is mostly redundant?
@ Mirrislegend- I am not sure how the number of bridges play into the fact that we don't want to have to attack. Just bc we do not shut down attacking, doesn't mean that we want to objectively attack. Canonists and Copter fit nicely within the overall plan of hand sculpting and creating a window to assemble and activate the combo. Canonist is just a hate piece, much like thorns or Moon effects, this one however just fits better in the deck to to interactions with Copter and Recruiter. Creature beats being relevant is different than HAVING to win through attacking. Copter ability to kill planeswalkers and put pressure on their life total is important bc it forces them to use removal allowing the combo to hopefully resolve and activate unmolested.
Your comment amount tutors doesn't make sens in the Shortcake thread as we have been on E tutor to address that issue for over 7 years at this point. However new Karn doesn't change this. For starters, the difference between 1 and 4 mana is enormous. The speed that E tutor allows, while being an instant, can not be understated. Using Karn to reliably get combo pieces requires you to run LESS combo pieces in the main deck, but with more VIRTUAL combo pieces at a fairly high premium on mana and time. E tutor allow the deck to maximize the combo pieces while maximizing the speed of the deck. This is important. Karn likely operates outside of this.
Thinking of Karn as just a wish with one activation is short sighted most likely. While the wish ability got us all excited, thinking of him I that manner sets a low floor where his upside is actually much higher. He opens up not only a toolbox tutor targets, but new ways to lock out the opponent, while further providing disruption to some plans out opponents may play. I fully expect that when we cast him turn 2 we will likely tick him up first and then go bananas turn 3. With his high loyalty it should be relatively easy to get multiple activations while further creating another permanent that our opponents NEED to answer. His ability to immediately impact the board later game by negating STP or finding a key answer further strengthen the reach he provides.
Sorry if this is a tad mean, but some of those thoughts were just wrong and I wanted to make sure that the hivemind doesnt go down that rabbit hole as the Source has been known to do.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
No worries! Being completely incorrect means drastic correction is necessary. Thank you for your thoroughness.
With that understanding, so many design choices by a variety of people make more sense. I'm definitely updating my list correspondingly. I don't think I'll be able to integrate New Karn properly anytime soon, so here's what I'll be playing:
4 Painter
4 Recruiter
3 Welder
3 Canonist
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Copter
4 Grindstone
4 Petal
1 Light Up the Stage
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Bridge
1 Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Pyroblast
1 REB
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Sacred Foundry (budget )
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
SB:
4 Surgical
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 REB
1 Containment Priest
1 Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Whipflare
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
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