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Thread: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

  1. #661

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I think itís wrong, personally, to run less than four. The card is ultra-dynamic in this archetype, and having multiples isnít that bad in the event the first gets countered.
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  2. #662
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @ Karn- I admit that the correct number may be 4. At this time we are still testing 3 due to the constraints he does places on the mana. He is fantastic though, so I am def. open to upping the total count. The real issue with that would require a re-evaluation o the mana base along with what to cut to fit him in. The easy first cut is likely one of the blast effects, although they also have been very strong, especially with the influx of new planeswalkers. I think at this time we are still working through the correct number. As an aside, he is fucking insane with LED.

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  3. #663
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @ Mirrislegend- I think those are two different questions. Karn is either good enough or not, and then it comes down to how many. I think early testing has shown that the card is def. good enough for the deck. Now the question is how many copies is optimal for us. I think this is the part we are trying to work through. Currently, I am testing 3 and it has felt good. Although I have to say I sort of want to draw him more. I will likely do some testing with 4 copies in the near future, likely after we settle on a more clearly defined sideboard and approach to each match up. At that point it will be a littel easier to judge his overall impact on the game state.

    LED needs to be evaluated independently from the number of Karns. In the past LED was always fringe playable in the deck, mainly bc it worked well with Painter and we did run a tutor where we could sometimes leverage the card. I never found it inherently that compelling to run in that situation as it was dead too often. Having some number of "Burning Wish" style plays changes that dynamic. Now we go from 4 tutors to abuse the LED to 4+x (Recruiters and some number of Karn) along with the upside of the Painter/Grindstone interaction. It is the inclusion of Karn that truly makes LED viable in the deck. the increased speed is nice as is the interaction with Recruiter and Welder. But now we can also use it to cast substantial artifacts while helping to protect a win condition. It is these uses that have pushed the card into a nice component of the deck with immense upside.

    I would say that as long as you are on 2 plus Karn, LED would be the correct fit for the deck as your tutor count feels sufficient at 6. By the nature of the way Karn was designed he sort of wants to be a 3 plus though due to the need to make a sideboard to truly take advantage of his utility. So I think the 2 questions are different yet linked. Hopefully this helps, but in short yes you should run Karn, likely 3 or more, and there should be some number of LED in your deck greater than zero, the rest is still being worked out.

    Seth
    Öno matter how much you think you love somebody, youíll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  4. #664
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    As a noob with this deck i think i need more explanations about the concrete uses for LED because to me it always seems like an "all in" card where you're risking your whole hand in attempt to resolve a key spell

  5. #665
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Davek View Post
    As a noob with this deck i think i need more explanations about the concrete uses for LED because to me it always seems like an "all in" card where you're risking your whole hand in attempt to resolve a key spell
    That certainly can be true, although LED in this deck can play other roles as well. First, sometimes you just need to put a card in your hand into the graveyard. For example, say I have a welder and grindstone on board with a painter in hand. If I play an LED, that is a potential instant speed win even with no mana up. I play LED, crack it, activate grindstone and weld in painter. With the new Karn, you can wish for something crack LED to play it or wish for something and crack LED with welder out to just swap whatever you wished for into play.

    What you are talking about is when you have early grindstone and painter on the board and a fist full of cards and you just YOLO your combo. This will come up from time to time, particularly early in the game where you can etutor for the LED and potentially go off turn 2 or something. There are times where LED is the worst draw in your deck, but it does have potential to do broken things. We have been playing around with the card for a long time. But with new Karn, the card definitely becomes more intriguing.

  6. #666

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I havenít been impressed with it in testing. In a four- Welder build with Faithless Looting and a few dedicated targets, itís certainly more dynamic.

    I guess my point is, what for three mana is worth getting with Karn? Grindstone?

    EDIT: New enemy Canopy lands. RW one - think itís worth a slot?
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I havenít been impressed with it in testing. In a four- Welder build with Faithless Looting and a few dedicated targets, itís certainly more dynamic.

    I guess my point is, what for three mana is worth getting with Karn? Grindstone?

    EDIT: New enemy Canopy lands. RW one - think itís worth a slot?
    Best 3 Mana thing to get is bridge because you can cast it off just the LED plus it makes you immediately hellbent for the lock. I was thinking maybe this deck wants 1 or 2 of the RW land, but man with tomb the lifeloss can add up
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  8. #668
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I havenít been impressed with it in testing. In a four- Welder build with Faithless Looting and a few dedicated targets, itís certainly more dynamic.

    I guess my point is, what for three mana is worth getting with Karn? Grindstone?

    EDIT: New enemy Canopy lands. RW one - think itís worth a slot?
    The other situation is that you might push Karn out with fast Mana and then need LED the next turn to play a lattice, etc.


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  9. #669
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @ Hollywood- Its not just 3 mana, but could be six. That is the key. Yes it allows the 3 mana for the grindstone win, but with Karn you can easily cast our bigger threats. I have found the card to be really strong as I think we can leverage it in many ways.

    Yes the card does more than just mana. I have also used it to get under bridge, ensuring my Karn can not be attacked.

    Seth
    Öno matter how much you think you love somebody, youíll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  10. #670

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    How is it six if youíre activating it in response to Karnís ability? Thatís only three. Are you meaning if thereís two on the table? I see what it can do here, Iím just wondering if, since itís really a bad topdeck more often than not, where we want to be. Weíre not really exploiting it - LED is a card you definitely want to exploit.
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  11. #671
    Victory Dance ftw?
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Anyone have any opinions on 19 land vs 20 land, 1 SSG vs 2 SSG, 3 Karn vs 4 Karn? I've got some flex slots (no LED, ) and I'm trying to figure out how to use them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
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    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
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  12. #672

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Share a list and it'll be easier to put any kind of advice into context! And maybe state what you feel uncomfortable with i.e. matchups, lines of play, what's your meta like

  13. #673
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Mine looks almost identical to Seth's:

    Maindeck (58 cards):
    4 Imperial Recruiters
    4 Painters Servant
    3 Goblin Welder
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 SSG

    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Grindstone
    3 Smugglerís Copter

    4 Pyroblast
    2 REB
    3 Enlightened Tutor

    3 Karn, the Great Creator
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Blood Moon

    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Mountain
    3 Plateau
    5 fetch lands
    1 Great Furnace

    Sideboard:
    3 Pyroclams
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 REB
    1 EE
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Lattice
    1 Grindstone
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Tormodís Crypt
    1 Relic of Progentis
    1 Magus of the Moon

    This week's flex slots:
    1 Great Furnace
    1 Karn, the Great Creator

    Last week my flex slots were 1 Great Furnace (20th land) and 1 Smuggler's Copter. I was hoping the looting of 4x Copter would offset the high land count, but that didn't work out.

    My primary concerns are speed and consistency. It seems like I can never race anyone: sometimes I have the combo pieces but not the resources to safely resolve and activate them, or I have the combo pieces but the mana is too slow, or I have the mana resources but no combo pieces, etc etc.

    The 2nd SSG (6th fast mana) over the 20th land might be worthwhile. We'll have to see how Karn performs (I rarely drew him during last week's matches).

    I'm considering trimming 1 SB Pyroclasm for 1 SB Sulfur Elemental. I really hate losing to Mentor tokens and its nice to crush DnT.

    It's possible I can get my hands on an LED in time for this weekend. In which case I'll have even tougher decisions to make!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  14. #674

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I played Kapn's list last Friday--my first outing with any Painter deck. I went 3-0 then split (2-1 vs. MUD, 2-0 vs. White Bomberman--got lucky there as opponent mulled to 5 in game 2 and I lost a practice game afterwards, and 2-1 vs. U/B Reanimator). Deck felt great!

    Any thoughts on a second LED in the sideboard? The singleton in the main deck felt great to me, and having the option of closing the game just from just Karn +1 turn seems great, since one issue the deck might have is needing to mull. While Painter+Stone is only a two card combo, in a longer tournament having the option of having 3 "one-card combos" in the main deck might help smooth out variance? Obviously it is a tradeoff with a "real" sideboard card or additional wish target though...

  15. #675
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by shonenkakumei View Post
    I played Kapn's list last Friday--my first outing with any Painter deck. I went 3-0 then split (2-1 vs. MUD, 2-0 vs. White Bomberman--got lucky there as opponent mulled to 5 in game 2 and I lost a practice game afterwards, and 2-1 vs. U/B Reanimator). Deck felt great!

    Any thoughts on a second LED in the sideboard? The singleton in the main deck felt great to me, and having the option of closing the game just from just Karn +1 turn seems great, since one issue the deck might have is needing to mull. While Painter+Stone is only a two card combo, in a longer tournament having the option of having 3 "one-card combos" in the main deck might help smooth out variance? Obviously it is a tradeoff with a "real" sideboard card or additional wish target though...
    I play one LED main and one in the SB myself and I love it. I also play 4 x Karn main though. Karn get LeD then get lattice is nice.

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  16. #676
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    So Goblin Engineer looks awesome. I think it opens up a lot of choices for our deck moving forward. My only complaint is that we were already still trying to tune and determine lines of play and now this sort of blows everything up. Oh well, this is a card I never could have imagined wizards printing. I imagine that we will undergo many additions and changes over the next month but after speaking with Jack I think I will immediately start testing 3 of these guys in my list. I am thinking -Canonist, -Cratermaker, -something, +3 Goblin Engineers.

    Welder still has a place in the deck. For mana considerations he still has immense value and advantage over this new dude. Likewise, E tutor still is strong due to speed, flexibility, and the fact that the card comes to hand as you all know untapping with Welder doesn't happen as much as you want it to. There are some strong points to dropping white in the deck, and we will likely have to explore them. On the surface, dropping white might slightly strengthen the mana base, as a cost of decreased speed and options. LED may lose some value without E tutor as the ability to E tutor for it and just win is a nice little option for your back pocket. However, it would allow us to up the Great Furnace count and basic count allowing the welder effects to be better. Dropping white would change the storm hate and the ability to really lean on a singleton Blood Moon. Currently I do not think we want more than 1 moon in the main, so that would effectively remove moon form the maindeck, which may or may not be ok. These are just initial ramblings, but I do like the option of what this card allows.

    Its funny, we bitched so long that Wizards just fucked red and Painter and now the last two sets have given us incredible cards.

    Seth
    Öno matter how much you think you love somebody, youíll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  17. #677
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    So Goblin Engineer looks awesome. I think it opens up a lot of choices for our deck moving forward. My only complaint is that we were already still trying to tune and determine lines of play and now this sort of blows everything up. Oh well, this is a card I never could have imagined wizards printing. I imagine that we will undergo many additions and changes over the next month but after speaking with Jack I think I will immediately start testing 3 of these guys in my list. I am thinking -Canonist, -Cratermaker, -something, +3 Goblin Engineers.

    Welder still has a place in the deck. For mana considerations he still has immense value and advantage over this new dude. Likewise, E tutor still is strong due to speed, flexibility, and the fact that the card comes to hand as you all know untapping with Welder doesn't happen as much as you want it to. There are some strong points to dropping white in the deck, and we will likely have to explore them. On the surface, dropping white might slightly strengthen the mana base, as a cost of decreased speed and options. LED may lose some value without E tutor as the ability to E tutor for it and just win is a nice little option for your back pocket. However, it would allow us to up the Great Furnace count and basic count allowing the welder effects to be better. Dropping white would change the storm hate and the ability to really lean on a singleton Blood Moon. Currently I do not think we want more than 1 moon in the main, so that would effectively remove moon form the maindeck, which may or may not be ok. These are just initial ramblings, but I do like the option of what this card allows.

    Its funny, we bitched so long that Wizards just fucked red and Painter and now the last two sets have given us incredible cards.

    Seth
    Piggybacking with some more thoughts and questions about Goblin Engineer:

    1) Splashing white? If we chop the E-tutors, then instantly the singleton Blood Moon needs to be considered while the LED would likely go. From a mono-red perspective, you would either have to add moons back up to 3+ if you want the effect, otherwise the singleton gets chopped entirely. The mana would only improve from the sense of running less fetchlands, since going up to 3 or 4 Great Furnace would likely be correct. With how much tutor flexibility between Engineer and Karn, mono-red is certainly an option, maybe even correct, and I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to start there. I really don't have an idea of where I want to start either.

    2) How does this affect the number of Welders? My initial reaction was that he just replaces and is better. He is recruitable to play through chalice and tutors the missing combo piece for a win the next turn. Also is great to be put in off show and tell to grab bridge, or just as an entomb value piece against storm for canonist/trinisphere. I am not sure though what the right place is for him, meaning I don't think he is a welder substitute. Engineer essentially supercharges OG welder and opens up Turn 1 Welder, Turn 2 Engineer lines. We have always operated under the assumption that we will never have Welder active, and if he does manage to live for a turn then we have a ton of super explosive plays available. I think Engineer falls into the same category. I am not sure how often we can expect either of these guys to stay alive, but obviously it is worth going for it.

    3) Space and how many? I don't think Cratermaker is necessary maindeck anymore since his primary purpose was to be a chalice bear with random upside everywhere else. Engineer beats chalice by himself. Since he is also the entomb, Seth and I were debating this morning and are in semi-agreement that one of the potential spots is the 2nd canonist and going back down to 1, since the virtual ways to find it are still increasing. That is two slots right away without affecting the curve at all. I still think copter is amazing, and will get even better with this new addition.

    4) It's a good time to be painting. We have the most tutors of any deck in Legacy. Confirmed tier √-1

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    Strawberry Shortcake

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  18. #678
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Card is sick. I'll definitely be testing it probably start as a 2 of in Mono Red.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  19. #679

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Oops all welders and tutors
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    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
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    My original post did that.

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    Good day.

  20. #680
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Wow. I think we definitely play this in conjunction with the Welder. With this and E. Tutor, would we still need Recruiter? Def not all four, right?

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