While optimizing my deck, I'd like to hear from people who has experience in using Lion's Eye Diamond.
It's potential to cast Lattice or activate Grindstone is hard to overestimate.
I can also imagine dumping my hand while Karn grabs Ensnaring Bridge to cast it immediatelly...
...but how important that card is, because I don't see it in every build?
How many copies would you reccomend in MD and SB?
Is it crucial for fast combo win?
@Drude, I took a look at your list, looks fun and I look forward to a stream, couple of questions,
- The 8 goblins must be felt in almost every round, does it have a benefit or do you find your flooded hoping for a different card? I can see value though.
- Are the extra great furnace worth it with so many wasteland around and Karn...?
- The quasi reanimater line with sundering titan, why not just go blightsteel colossus? Weld it in response to the shuffle trigger, putting a game winner on the battlefield. And it serves as to confuse the hell out of opposing grindstone players.
- I prefer the looter scooter especially good with et in getting goodies in the yard.
- I’ve always played powder keg instead of ratchet bomb, it doesn’t tap to load. It limits its kill to creatures and artifacts but isn’t that the whole point of it anyway?
@Jungian Thing: regarding Colossus, you can't weld it in because it's a replacement effect so it never enters the graveyard at all. Otherwise it would be the no 1 welder target.
Already posted this on discord. And already brewing.
I'm thinking to play 4x maindeck Lightning Bolt and 2x Pyrokinesis in the sideboard. Why a lot of players still doesn't play Lightning Bolt in the maindeck? I remember that old Imperial Painter lists run 4 Lightning Bolt, like the GP decklist of Kim Grymer. With all these Delver decks, it can be a good choice. I hate Dreadhorde Arcanist.
Last edited by Alex_UNLIMITED; 09-15-2019 at 10:03 AM.
I dont like it in the maindeck because it might incentivize me to keep a bad hand. G1 in the complete blind, I need to have a game plan and execute that plan. Theres no deck manipulation or cantrips to pivot my gameplan if I see my opponent isnt doing what I thought. I feel like the main goal of Shortcake should be to combo their face in, especially G1 when the opponent doesnt have nearly as many answers as they will G2. Given that, Lightning Bolt doesnt help me combo out, which means I personally want it on the side so i dont talk myself into keeping a hand with Bolts and find out my opponent is on Belcher and I'm just too slow.
G2 though I can know if my opponent is slower and if Bolt is useful, and can bring it in and potentially prioritize a hand that can cast it.
Would anybody be so kind to provide an invite to the Discord?
All latest links seem to have expired.
Thanks a lot!
Shoot! I think I've missed it again. The link is not working.
Could you try again papasmurf?
Here is my list for GP Atlanta. This was my first GP. I've been playing some sort of painter for about 6 years. My goal for the GP was to go at least 4-4. I ran hot day 1 and went 8-1 then I went 0-3 on day 2.
Main Deck:
3 Auriok Salvagers
4 Goblin Engineer
3 Goblin Welder
3 Imperial Recruiter
3 Painter's Servant
1 Walking Ballista
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Grindstone
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
3 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Sunbaked Canyon
Sideboard:
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grindstone
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Painter's Servant
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Walking Ballista
2 Wear // Tear
Round 1: Death and Taxes
-Game 1: Win with the bomberman combo (walking ballista).
-Game 2: Win via grindstone/painter. They played both Thalias and a prelate on 4. They misplayed when getting a sword of fire and ice with stone forge. I had a painter in play naming blue, They did not know the interaction. I side boarded in both wear/tears for an opal and Mishra's bauble.
1-0
Round 2: High tide
-Game 1: I assemble a quick turn 2 or 3 combo. I did not realize that he was on high tide until this point. Also I did not know high tide ran an emrakul. He then combos for about 15ish minutes and mills me out with brain freeze. In my upkeep I weld a lodestone bauble into play and put 3 basics on top of my library. I win later that turn with the bomberman combo (walking ballista).
-Game 2: Win via grindstone/painter in turns. This involved some welder shenanigans and Karn to grab a crypt. Sideboard in 1 crypt and a surgical. Sided out a opal and not sure what else.
2-0
Round 3: Mono Red Prison
-Game 1: Loss to a quick Karn and trinisphere. Scooped to conceal info.
-Game 2: Win with a quick grindstone/painter kill. Sided in 2 wear/tear.
-Game 3: Win, this was a weird one that I probably should have lost. A few turns in I have a Karn and an imperial recruiter in play and they have a Karn and trinisphere. They decide to fetch and play a lattice, I guess he forgot I had the recruiter in play. 14 turns later I win on 1/1 beats.
3-0
Round 4: Mono Red Prison
-Game 1: Turn 2 win with grindstone/painter/LED
-Game 2: Win. He got an early chalice on 1 out, but I was able to win via the bomberman combo using lodestone bauble. again sided in 2 wear/tear.
4-0
Round 5: Eldrazi
-Game 1: Win via grindstone
-Game 2: I had to explain to my opponent the interaction between eye of ugin/eldrazi temple and painter. I assembled the combo relatively quickly but he had a blast zone on 2. After being in a stalemate for awhile, I was able to win with bomberman combo (lodestone bauble). brought in 2 wear/tear again.
5-0
Round 6: ANT
-Game 1 and 2: They had the turn 2 combo both games. I had turn 3 kills lined up.
5-1
Round 7: Hypergenesis
-Game 1: He was stuck on lands and scooped to the grindstone combo in order to not show his deck. I'm not sure why he scooped as he had 4 emrakuls in his main deck.
-Game 2: Loss. On turn 2 he cascaded into a hypergensis put a omniscience into play then cast an emrakul. Brought in surgical/crypt
-Game 3: Win. He cascaded turn 3 into an omniscience but no emrakul or griselbrand this time. I was able to play Karn then bridge on my turn. Then I lattice locked him (he could still use omniscience). Eventually use Karn to fetch grindstone, painter and crypt.
6-1
Round 8: Bomberman
-Game 1: Win. I play a turn 2 Karn then grindstone/painter a turn or 2 later.
-Game 2: Loss, He turn 1 chalice on 1, turn 2 Karn, then combos in the next turn.
-Game 3: Wii, Again I play a turn 2 Karn then win with grindstone/painter.
7-1
Round 9: Hogaak BUG
-Game 1: Win turn 2 grindstone/painter kill
-Game 2: Win. I play a welder turn 1, turn 2 he thoughseizes and takes the salvager over Karn. I end up getting the combo over the next 2 turns and draw an LED to win.
8-1
Round 10 (Sunday): UR Delver
-Game 1: Loss. I'm on the draw, I play a great furnace, welder, and opal. He casts his main deck abrade on my furnace. Turn 2 I play a plains, but miss the line where I should have welded the opal for the furnace. He was out of interaction but killed me the turn before I could have won with grindstone/painter.
-Game 2: Loss. I was stuck on 2 lands with lots of engineers. He had multiple bolts/abrades/burst lightnings with an arcanist and TNN.
8-2
Round 11: Mono Red Prison
-Game 1: Win Grindstone/painter. Used an engineer to get around a chalice on 1 to win.
-Game 2: Loss. He cast a turn 1 rabblemaster followed up by a turn 2 trinisphere.
-Game 3: Loss. He cast a turn 1 Karn and then got a liquimetal coating turn 2.
8-3
Round 12: Maverick splashing black.
-Game 1: Win with grindstone
-Game 2: Loss. He casts a greens sun for 2 for a ouphe. He killed me with a knight of a reliquary and tireless tracker.
-Game 3: Loss. Game is pretty even, I draw my Inkwell with an LED in play. Next turn a cast a welder. He cast greens sun for 2 likely to get an ouphe, So I crack the led to discard the inkwell, he then gets a scavenging ooze instead. between 3 hierarch and a pride mage his beat down clock is pretty quick. .
8-4
That is where my day ended. I probably stopped prematurely but I had plans with my family for Sunday afternoon. Had I stayed in contention for top 8 I would have kept going but sadly I did not. I definitely did not play as crisply on Sunday. The deck felt strong, but I did not see any Grixis, 4C control, reanimater, or sneak and show. I only saw 3 Force of will decks in 12 rounds. Fast combo is a bad match up, but I only saw that once (ANT). The numbers in the main deck feel good. I'm still not sure on the daretti package int he sideboard. I likely need a way to get opposing Karns of the table. I will likely replace them with a crater maker, another crypt and that new glass casket card. A strength of the deck is that opponents aren't expecting both combos. It just keeps throwing must answer hay-makers. The diversity of threats makes hate cards like surgical and chalice worse.
Bomberman has disruption/anti-hate in the form of Karakas, Cavern of Souls, and Chalice of the Void. Shortcake interacts via 6 blasts with more interaction in the board. Both decks also have decent beatdown plans.
Your amalgam has none of those. Did you feel the void of those missing components?
https://discord.gg/4bnNgB4 attempt 2
If that doesnt work, the mtglegacy reddit has a list of discords on the sidebar and the main Legacy discord they have also has the full list of known discords
Trying to breathe some more life in the thread and it's always easier to do so by reporting an anecdotal 4-0 win. Regardless of possible fluctuations in results, I am relatively happy about my current iteration and the reasoning behind it.
[deck]
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Goblin Welder
3 Painter's Servant
4 Pyroblast
3 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Plateau
3 City of Traitors
4 Goblin Engineer
1 Ethersworn Canonist
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Mox Opal
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Blood Moon
1 Prismatic Vista
4 Arid Mesa
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Painter's Servant
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Trinisphere
1 Glass Casket
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
[/deck]
Main questions / issues found:
1. Lots of tutoring, but not enough card advantage / moving the board state forward
2. To Blood Moon or no, and if yes, then how
My main focuses with shortcake were around the following points:
1. Explosiveness without giving everything up
2. Enough tutor effects without giving everything up
3. All while moving your board state forward
This lead me to the following points:
1. Arcum's Astrolabe & Mox Opal for more sustained mana, mana fixing, and cantrip (moving the board state forward)
2. Engineer is really strong and 2 instead of 3 (recruiter) mana cost means it's easier to play around Daze / keep mana open for pyroblasts (think mountain, astrolabe, sol land)
3. Blood Moon is great against RUG Delver, Storm, Depths - all very prevalent decks, with specifically helping make RUG a very decent matchup
4. Even without combo pieces but with Welder & Engineer, you can go for it and get a Wurmcoil (or Sundering Titan, if you prefer) and keep your opponent busy while you develop your board state (and drain their resources).
And so forth.
1st Match vs UB Delver
Game 1 On the play
I get Duress and see cantrips, so I first guessed my opponent on storm. I play painter, followed by a powered out a Karn getting (and playing) a canonist. Opponent actually plays Temur Delver, but I severely slowed him down. Engineer gets me Grindstone and I combo out.
SB:
IIRC I boarded Trinisphere and Canonist in, boarded out some Blood Moons.
Game 2
I have a hand with 1 painter and 2 karns. He discards my 2 karns and a sol land with Duress & Hymn to Tourach, and I topdeck 2 Grindstones to take it home.
2nd Match vs RUGb Delver
Game 1 on the draw
I try a welder, gets bolted. My Astrolabe gets countered, and he starts swinging away at me with a flipped delver. I think somewhere here I cast Imperial Recruiter for Painter. Wastelands keep me at bay, one Gurmag Angler hit gets me to 3, and his Wrenn and Six flips next turn with 2 bolts in his graveyard.
SB:
IIRC I boarded in Trinisphere, 2nd Ensnaring Bridge, 3 STP. Boarded out 2 Recruiters (too slow), 1 Welder, 1 Karn (pretty slow), 1 ?? (he boarded out some big beaters.. I wonder if that's normal. May have to adjust boarding strategy).
Game 2
I start off with a welder (gets bolt), Engineer+welder (Wurmcoil Engine). He surgicals the wurmcoil engine, and I try to land a Trinisphere, which gets countered. I draw into engineer and welder, get an ensnaring bridge and start cycling in and out 2 astrolabes. He scoops.
Game 3
I start with 2 painters and an engineer in my hand. I play a painter to bait (resolves), play engineer (bolt), play Trinisphere (counter), Blood Moon (counter), Blood Moon (resolves, I think), play my second painter for redundancy against bolt, then play Grindstone and combo out.
3rd Match vs Depths
Game 1 on the draw
He develops his board with 2 Elvish Reclaimer. I play Painter, he tries to combo out, I Pyroblast his Depths. He beats me a bit with 2 buffed Reclaimers, but I draw into grindstone and combo out 2 turns later.
SB:
IIRC I boarded in 2nd Ensnaring Bridge (Karn -> Bridge would be too slow), 3 STP, out 1 Wurmcoil Engine, 1 Ethersworn Canonist, 2 Imperial Recruiters (too slow).
Game 2
I start out with 2 pyroblasts in my hand and an Engineer. I play Engineer (abrupt decay) fetching Ensnaring Bridge, and a second Engineer fetching Painter. I get Bridge into play, while he carefully builds up his board. He EOT tries to create a token, I swap out a lotus petal for Painter, and Pyroblast his Depths. In response, he crop rotates Depths into depths. I draw another Engineer and play him for Grindstone, and pass the turn. EOT he tries to create another token, and I Pyroblast his second Depths. The game is progressing kind of slowly specifically because I keep Engineer open. I weld Grindstone in, and pass the turn. Once I have the turn back, I have 2 Engineers open. I activate Grindstone, in response he abrupt decays my painter. Engineer for painter goes on the stack, he responds with crop rotation for Bokuja Bog, to which I respond with another Engineer activation to get Painter back into play.
4th Match vs ANT
Game 1 on the play
I keep a hand with 2 Karns, power one into play, wish for canonist and play it while he cantrips for 3 turns.
SB:
IIRC I board in 1 Canonist, 1 Trinisphere, 2 Surgical Extraction, I board out 1 Wurmcoil Engine, 1 Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Karn, 1 Recruiter
Game 2
I keep a crazy hand of 2 sol lands, 1 Karn, 2 LED, 1 Canonist (and ? Astrolabe?). I T2 Karn + Lattice, but he has Chain of Vapor. He bounces Karn, I play Karn again next turn and he found Hurkyll's Recall and bounces all my everything. I smile and grab my stuff together for game 3.
Game 3
I keep a hand of surgical extraction, 2 Karn, 1 Welder. I play Welder, and in the next 2 turns he discards my Karns. I draw into Grindstone, play it. He plays Infernal Tutor to get another copy of Cabal Ritual. I Surgical the tutor and.. he had 2 more in his hand, and a Hurkyll's Recall (this should already have been the good game). I draw into an Engineer, play him, bin Painter. Next turn, I get Painter into play for Mox Opal, go. Turn after, I activate Grindstone. Hurkyll's Recall in response. In response to that, I weld Grindstone out for Mox Opal, use Mox Opal to pay for Engineer Grindstone back in (untapped), and activate Grindstone again for the win.
I barely saw recruiter, only cast him once. Didn't really miss him. May go back to trying out Seasoned Pyromancer again in its slot. Blood Moons have been amazing, and I haven't missed Enlightened Tutor once - mainly because of 4 Blood Moon. Wurmcoil is great as a threat, but maybe Sundering Titan could be even better, specifically against UW/Jeskai decks (if they let you even resolve Welder & Engineer...).
Last edited by Daize; 10-16-2019 at 03:06 AM.
Very strange deck indentifying going on here. M1 RUG Delver with duress and hymn??? M2 more RUG delver, this time with Anglers.
Other than that, thanks for the report sounds like great games!
Thanks JackaBo, I completely messed those up, corrected. First one was UB, second one was some 4 colour delver (black for Anglers..). And cheers!
First of all, nice job! I'm willing to share my very own impressions(which may be totally wrong) based on the recent tests i did while asking you some opinions:
- with the exception of delver decks I found Blood Moon as a very marginal card. Stompy and Wrenn and Six's Wasteland recurtion are rampant and every deck is packing a bunch of basic lands, so I feel one copy or maybe 2 at maximum are sufficient. Almost every time my opponent sees i'm starting the game dropping a basic Mountain he starts fetching for basics as well and that immediately nerfs any Blood Moon plan.
- Wurmcoil Engine >>>> Sundering Titan. Our manabase is very thin and i'm not willing to play something that may end up blowing multiple Mountains on my side. In addition, Wurmcoil stabilizes your life total and cannot easily be stopped by a single TNN that may guard the fort while Delvers are beating you in the air. The power of the play like T1 Welder into T2 Engineer to Entomb Wurmcoil is undeniable. On T3 you're attacking for six damage, and on T4 even for 12 damage (after the first attack you sac Wurmcoil with Engineer to grab back your original artifact, then switch it back for Wurmcoil with Welder).
- i think 2 Tormod's Crypt in side are mandatory. If you hope to combo against Emrakul decks, you need to maximize your possibilities to find the Crypt as the third combo piece, so i usually side in one to be grabbed with Engineer/Tutor and one in the sideboard to be grabbed by Karn.
- if you want some serious card adavantage i suggest to try Ichor Wellspring. I was skeptical at first but have to admit that's a powerhouse while facing decks like miracles, it allows you to draw many more cards than any Astrolabe could do. Of course, it doesn't fix mana.
- why no Pithing Needle and Grafdigger's Cage in sideboard? They're both very flexible, the first stops Sneak Attack, Thespian's Stage, Wastelands and planeswalkers while the other one helps against Elves, Reanimator and is very effective against control decks that rely on Arcanist and Snapcaster Mage.
- are Mox Opal really effective? You're not even running artifact lands, i tested them in the past and didn't like them at all in this configuration.
- are 2 LED maindeck really necessary? As said in the past, LED is one of the worst topdecks you may have, and i almost never dare to use them as an all-in combo.
- STP are the way to go, thay're much better than Bolts, for they take care of the big creatures that really threaten us like Goyf or Angler.
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