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Thread: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

  1. #761

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by schweinefettmann View Post
    It won’t work well where I tend to play, since wasteland is very real, but it might work? I don’t have any lands to test tho.


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    Yeah, I'm not sure. I noticed the interaction when I double-checked City of Shadows. I mean, I would absolutely only run it as a one-of. You could make an argument to either not run it or run another City of Traitors, but if the mana base is tweaked, I don't see a problem running it when you consider it's a one-of and a majority of the deck is CMC=1.

    Again, completely untested, probably cute and better in EDH - but it's pretty real when it gets going, I would imagine. And if someone Wastes a City of Shadows if a dude is already on the way out, it's not like a 2 for 1 if the smaller dude was going to die anyhow and not deal lethal. Most of these creatures in the deck are power one anyhow.

    The real argument for testing it is the synergy with Karn and Coating.
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  2. #762
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I think the real issue against it is that it does nothing the first couple turns of the game. Giving up a land drop that early in a field of wasteland is a real issue. The fourth CoT is def just better than it. Bc it needs a sacrifice before it can generate mana, it is basically a comes into play tapped land. The threshold for a land that enters tapped is likely on the level of the locus lands in ramp lists. The time and resources for this land to reach that level are sort of high, which seems to me at odds with what we are doing.

    Seth
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  3. #763

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I just thought of another interaction: Coating turning Tomb or City into an artifact, Voltaic Key to untap it and net mana. Obviously, only usable with Grim Monolith. But one Key in the board can be interesting.
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  4. #764

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    i'd be more into the idea of key+coating on welder or something to do a double-weld.. or weld in response to a fatal push/stp?

    ...actually, that sounds pretty awesome. but a huge resource sink. It could be significantly better in a daretti spaghetti build, where the whole plan is to weld in and out stuff like sundering titans, wurmcoil engines and combustible gearhulks.

    to be honest, i think the best use for key would be for grim monoliths, for those who run them. I suspect moreso in an imperial painter/mono red build. But untapping a sol land isn't anything to scoff at either.
    Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
    EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer

  5. #765
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    That seems like a lot of work and resources to get to an extra mana, not to mention the four life you paid from two activations of Ancient Tomb. I can see the value of Key if you are running Monolith, but I don't think it is anything Shortcake wants. The issue will always be the fact that we want fewer cards that do nothing on their own. Grindstone still continues to be one of the worst cards to draw in the deck and its mill feature is not useless with Welder. Adding more of these will only increase our variance or reduce the solutions in the board. Both are situations that we have been trying to move away from.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  6. #766

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    we want fewer cards that do nothing on their own.
    For that reason exactly I am really looking forward to goblin engineer. Maybe even to replace welder. It does welder and then some.

  7. #767
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @Daize- Engineer is not likely a replacement for Welder. The mana requirements and the way it affects sequencing is really important. And I think maybe my comment wasn't clear, Welder, while a weenie, isn't a card that does nothing by himself. He is a threat in a deck which relies on a combo kill fueled with artifacts. Mox Monkey and Coating are largely do nothings on their own. If I just remove the other cards that interact with them, they fail to impact the board. Even if you remove the other artifacts, welder is a constant threat to bring them back. Welder requires an answer so that their future interactions can still be impactful. With Voltaic Key, I can largely ignore it until you play something else that matters. And if I deal with that card the Key continues to do nothing. Hopefully that is a little clearer.

    Seth
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  8. #768
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    @Daize- Engineer is not likely a replacement for Welder. The mana requirements and the way it affects sequencing is really important. And I think maybe my comment wasn't clear, Welder, while a weenie, isn't a card that does nothing by himself. He is a threat in a deck which relies on a combo kill fueled with artifacts. Mox Monkey and Coating are largely do nothings on their own. If I just remove the other cards that interact with them, they fail to impact the board. Even if you remove the other artifacts, welder is a constant threat to bring them back. Welder requires an answer so that their future interactions can still be impactful. With Voltaic Key, I can largely ignore it until you play something else that matters. And if I deal with that card the Key continues to do nothing. Hopefully that is a little clearer.

    Seth
    Agree with everything here. Pretty much why I don't think I'll be running a coating package in any serious build. Between grindstone with no painter out and copter with no creature out (and in imperial extra moons) there's already a high number of "do nothing" cards.
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  9. #769
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    What about putting one Liquidmetal Coating in the wishboard (possibly replacing Lattice)? Comes online way faster than Lattice lock and doesn't require Karn to be eternally defended in order to impact the board (ie: blowing up 2 or 3 lands that stay dead when Karn dies). Blowing up one land per turn for no continuous input seems decent.
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  10. #770
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Lattice straight up wins the game. You do not want to replace a situational card for something that wins right there. The issue with putting it in the wish board is tough bc it is now competing with Lattice, Bridge, additional mana, Canonist, or Relic which all likely affect the board state more, and quicker. The value of all those cards, Lattice excluded, is they can really affect the opponent immediately and require no additional support, but they all further support what we are doing. I will admit Lattice is different form the other cards, but if it resolves the game is likely over, and that insane upside is worth running. Liquidmetal's best upside is using Karn every turn likely keep them at 3 mana or less. And i am not sure that is better than just using Karn every turn to attack with Copter, as if they ever deal with Karn all you are left with is a blank vs the advanced board state, sculpted hand, and reduced life total you were able to get with Copter.

    I am not anti Coating, I just don't think it is something Shortcake wants. It is likely something that the mono red lists are running as they care about grinding plays. We aren't designed, nor do we have the space to really leverage the card in Shortcake, as it is competing with all those other cards I mentioned above, all of which are interdependently strong and impactful, or straight up game winning.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  11. #771

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    You can’t ever cut Lattice with Karn. I play two Coating main and one in the board. I’m pretty tight on the list, but I think there’s clearly healthy division on lists. That’s a good thing.

    I think the biggest thing about this deck right now is that there have been so many changes based on the recent printings of excellent cards. Since that affects overall design, it’s hard to say what’s optimal at this point.
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  12. #772
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    What about putting one Liquidmetal Coating in the wishboard (possibly replacing Lattice)? Comes online way faster than Lattice lock and doesn't require Karn to be eternally defended in order to impact the board (ie: blowing up 2 or 3 lands that stay dead when Karn dies). Blowing up one land per turn for no continuous input seems decent.
    I don't think I would replace lattice. It's such a strong lock that if you have opponent's creatures under control the game is just over with the combo out. Coating doesn't come close to that. The only benefit of coating over lattice is that it's easier to get on the board. But if you are facing down a slew of attackers on your opponent's side then you are in the same position. Would you ever grab coating in that situation over something like bridge or ballista? Not likely. I do see some relevance with the card but I don't think it can compete with lattice.

    On a different note, wondering how much attention people are giving to the new spoilers. I do think Blood Moon will probably get worse with everyone talking about Prismatic Vista. It probably makes sense to stay at 1 copy main. That being the case, what do people think about Sunbaked Canion (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/s...dcanyon.html)? Does it make sense to fit a couple in just for the draw effect? Might be worth considering as it always sucks to get flooded.

    A couple other cards that have caught my interest a little:

    1. Shenanigans (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/shenanigans.html) - not sure if I love this card or hate it. At sorcery speed we can probably do better. But if you are looking for a recurrent answer to chalice, needle, etc this might be okay. Can also play it after grindstoning it in to the graveyard. Mostly concerned that it could be really good against us, although it is sorcery speed.

    2. Magmatic Sinkhole (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/m...csinkhole.html) - might be decent sideboard answer to troublesome creatures and planeswalker. Might not be bad as a 1-2 of although we aren't filling our graveyards like the cantrip decks are, so delve is a little tougher.

    3. On Thin Ice (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/onthinice.html) - similarly, not a bad creature removal card. I realize it's just worse that StP in most cases but it does have the advantage of hitting a griselbrand or Emrakul off a Show & Tell. Guess it depends on how worried we are about that match-up. Would obviously also have to substitute snow lands for our basics.

    4. Generous Gift (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/generousgift.html) - again, interesting removal card. Granted, Beast Within doesn't see a lot of play in legacy but this does answer ALL PERMANENTS so is an answer to planeswalkers and scary lands (response to stage-depths trigger). Can also turn a non-essential piece of ours into a 3/3 dude for blocking, copter activation, etc.

    5. Talisman of Conviction (R/W talisman) - just in case someone wanted this as their extra mana spot (vs 20th land). Probably better than the signet. Also, Arcum's Astrolabe (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/arcumsastrolabe.html) is interesting as a one of as you could get it with engineer to fix your mana and the cantrip ability makes it decent to weld in and out for card advantage. Again, probably too cute given the space restrictions we have but worth considering.

    Also, don't know if you guys listen to the Eternal Glory podcast or not but Jack got mentioned briefly on this week's show. They were talking about Karn.

  13. #773
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    Lattice straight up wins the game. You do not want to replace a situational card for something that wins right there.
    My primary reasoning was speed. However, you're correct that they're both super situational. But one situation is "Win the game" and the other is "maybe blow up some lands."

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    I am not anti Coating, I just don't think it is something Shortcake wants. It is likely something that the mono red lists are running as they care about grinding plays. We aren't designed, nor do we have the space to really leverage the card in Shortcake.
    This makes a lot of sense. Coating may go in Imperial, but not in Shortcake.
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    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
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  14. #774

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    Coating may go in Imperial, but not in Shortcake.
    I disagree. There's only a white splash to support what is a dwindling number of white cards overall. I think there's no right or wrong way to design the deck with new cards. The base colors are still red and white, it's still Painter and the overall makeup of the deck has changed over the years. At this point, it's incredibly volatile.

    I'll double-down and say it's actually where the deck wants to be, due in large part to the power of Karn. Jamming cards into the sideboard, in my mind, isn't good enough. If there are multiple cards with synergistic qualities in the deck and smaller, effective combos that also have those synergies with most of the other cards in the deck, then why is it not good enough for R/w? What specifically disqualifies these options, especially in the wake of multiple impacting new printings, from being effective in Shortcake going forward?
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  15. #775
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    The white splash has always been to incorporate Enlightened Tutor, and the varying degrees of other white cards being ran really just depends on the current meta. Just because Canonists are being trimmed really doesn't change the pretty big differences between running Imperial vs Shortcake, since with top the only white cards we were running were usually in the board anyways like Rest in Peace, Canonist, and Ajani, and EE i guess can be considered white.

    Coating is certainly interesting, it offers the ability to swiss army knife stone rain, rishadan port, pithing needle when Karn is out, and turn your lands/recruiters/etc into welder/engineer fodder when he isn't. I get that is why Monkey is included, as he is 1 mana mini-Karn. If you want that ability maindeck, I would say it should be viewed a step below Blood Moon/Ensnaring Bridge/Canonist as those are the hate cards we probably should have as 1-ofs main, so you would then start looking into chopping mana, blasts, or copters, or starting to encroach into welder territory. My issue is that Coating is geared towards making the deck more dnt-lite, while copter helps speed the deck up and is probably better than coating when Karn isn't in play. Mox Monkey would have to be viewed against the same batch of cards, and my preference is usually towards making Welder as powerful as possible when he's active, since he supports the Painter/Stone combo and Ensnaring Bridge plan, while Mox Monkey doesn't. That's my biggest strike against it. 1 coating in the board i think makes more sense as a control-hate piece, so that you can always have Karn available when you want it. I think it comes down to playstyle, do you want more towards fast combo or more of a midrange artifact machine. The new meta is really going to be the Wild West, so there will be a lot of cool things to experiment with.

    We've reached an interesting crossroads, with Karn being legal for a month now, yet the list is guaranteed to change again with the incorporation of Modern Horizons and the new archetypes that are spawned/rebirthed/strengthened. Goblin Engineer primarily for us, but other decks are getting serious power boosts too. 1 Sunbaked Canyon is an interesting card to try also.

    With that in mind, I finally reached 60 matches played with Karn. I went 39-21 for 65%. Highlights were the first try top 8 in the challenge, playing back-to-back-to-back leagues going 3-2, 4-1, 5-0 in order, and going a combined 17-4 against ANT, Grix Control, and Miracles Lowlights have been going a combined 3-6 vs Death and Taxes and Elves, The lists were all varying degrees of what I've posted around here, with sideboard slots being tested and scrapped. Lots of mistakes as well, so I'm still really confident moving forward as we get more reps with Karn.

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  16. #776
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    The more i look at the metagame, the more i think a singleton absolute law could come in pretty handy in sb… bolts, p.fires, k. commands and abrades are everywhere!

  17. #777
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Davek View Post
    The more i look at the metagame, the more i think a singleton absolute law could come in pretty handy in sb… bolts, p.fires, k. commands and abrades are everywhere!
    Some of us were playing Hanna's Custody in the SB for a while. Sounds like it would be pretty good in your metagame.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
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    God, is that furry bondage?

  18. #778
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Just got 3rd in the starcity power tournament, winning a mox emerald. Deck is bomb
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  19. #779

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Congratulations! Looking forward to hearing reports & knowin if there's any coverage ^^. Awesome.

  20. #780

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook View Post
    Just got 3rd in the starcity power tournament, winning a mox emerald. Deck is bomb
    Keep on crushing it!

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