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Thread: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

  1. #781

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I have a question about the third Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard: does it stays there (for Karn, the Great Creator) or it's a side in against some decks?

  2. #782
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Against storm you should bring them in as the E tutor for Canonist is likely your best play there. Otherwise its probably best to keep one in the board.

    Updates are coming. Jack did great last weekend, and we feel like the sideboard is finally shaping up. We are working on the last couple slots in the deck, but right now I think our lists are basically 74/75, which is the likely the closest they have ever been. I am trying to test the maindeck with Engineer, working on sequencing and mulling at this time. The issue with that is that the London mull rules will further complicate this. It will likely be another month before I can get an updated list on teh first page. I also think we will be able to post some thoughts, ideas on hands to keep and basic sideboarding and match up analysis. Due to the complexity of the deck and the issues with play draw, I am doubtful we will ever be able to get more exact that that.

    Either way stay tuned. I need another 30-40 games with the Engineer, but so far the list is still operating around 60% or so on MTGO. Obviously variance and small sample size swing some of the numbers, but teh deck feels good.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  3. #783
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    Against storm you should bring them in as the E tutor for Canonist is likely your best play there. Otherwise its probably best to keep one in the board.

    Updates are coming. Jack did great last weekend, and we feel like the sideboard is finally shaping up. We are working on the last couple slots in the deck, but right now I think our lists are basically 74/75, which is the likely the closest they have ever been. I am trying to test the maindeck with Engineer, working on sequencing and mulling at this time. The issue with that is that the London mull rules will further complicate this. It will likely be another month before I can get an updated list on teh first page. I also think we will be able to post some thoughts, ideas on hands to keep and basic sideboarding and match up analysis. Due to the complexity of the deck and the issues with play draw, I am doubtful we will ever be able to get more exact that that.

    Either way stay tuned. I need another 30-40 games with the Engineer, but so far the list is still operating around 60% or so on MTGO. Obviously variance and small sample size swing some of the numbers, but teh deck feels good.

    Seth
    I thought you leave the 3rd Canonist in the SB against storm, because you have Karn to shut off their Petals and buy you time. Whereas vs Elves and other combo decks without artifact mana, Karn doesn't hate on the opponent, so bringing in the 3rd Canonist is the best way to maximize your hate density.
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    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
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  4. #784
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @ Mirrislegend- To be fair leaving it in the board and waiting till turn three to resolve it is likely too slow against storm. Yes Karn does help there, but there ability to just chain rituals and then Past in Flames will easily beat Karn after you spent your second turn tapping out for him. For elves, the addition of bolts and Painter on blue, allow you to disrupt the key elves or counter the NO which is the key way to interact with them. We are working on figuring out these positions, but I think you likely want to be bringing the Canonist in against storm, and likely Elves for that matter. You can always use Karn to get nice value even without the Canonist there. Relic, Crypt, and Bridge all have applications there.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  5. #785
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    @ Mirrislegend- To be fair leaving it in the board and waiting till turn three to resolve it is likely too slow against storm. Yes Karn does help there, but there ability to just chain rituals and then Past in Flames will easily beat Karn after you spent your second turn tapping out for him. For elves, the addition of bolts and Painter on blue, allow you to disrupt the key elves or counter the NO which is the key way to interact with them. We are working on figuring out these positions, but I think you likely want to be bringing the Canonist in against storm, and likely Elves for that matter. You can always use Karn to get nice value even without the Canonist there. Relic, Crypt, and Bridge all have applications there.

    Seth
    That's a good point. Storm can be SO FAST :'(

    I'm worried I'll miss Pyroclasm if I switch to Bolt. Are you not worried about the volume of creatures from Elves, Goblins, Young Peezy, Empty the Warrens, and DnT?

    How many Engineer are you testing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  6. #786
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    That's a good point. Storm can be SO FAST :'(

    I'm worried I'll miss Pyroclasm if I switch to Bolt. Are you not worried about the volume of creatures from Elves, Goblins, Young Peezy, Empty the Warrens, and DnT?

    How many Engineer are you testing?
    If you're worried about multiple creatures you can always play something like pyrokinesis or play some split of chasms/bolts.
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    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  7. #787
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @ Bolt vs Pyroclasm- I think its a push and pull to be honest. Yes there are times where you will miss the mass removal, but there are also other times when you can just destroy a Mentor or planeswalker. Bolt is still strong aganst Elves and Goblins and does help to disrupt their axis of attack. So I could see the concern but I think Bolt just helps a littel more, especially at its mana cost. We also are less incentivized to destroy the world with another Goblin welder in the deck. There is now more downside to casting Pyroclasm, which is something you need to think about when evaluating its upside.

    I am testing 2 Goblin Engineer, and that feels right. i am not sure you want more than that at this time, but teh card is as fantastic as we thought...


    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  8. #788

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Let's not forget about Bridge and Canonist here. Bolt has been amazing for me and fills its role (EDIT: exactly like Seth ninja-posted ;-) - it's more versatile, flexible, and cheaper), while Bridge is still a blanket all-star.

    I would want to add more thoughts here, but I don't really know what to say. a 3/3 or 3/2 split of the welder brothers has been feeling great online, and I can't wait to get it going on paper. I feel it's now up to the metagame to take its new shape and we'll see. We just need to roll up our sleeves and get reps in.

  9. #789
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I'm honestly a little surprised to hear high praise about Goblin Engineer. I figured he'd be too clunky and too risky. I was planning on testing 1 (fit nicely into my flex slot!). Now I have to find room for another one :( Is going down to 1 MD Canonist worth it? I suppose she CAN be fetched with Engineer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  10. #790
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Engineer is great. He doesn't replace Welder or E. tutor, but serves as a really nice compliment. His ability to get around Chalice is a really nice touch. He does streamline the deck and allow for more consistency. He finally allows a way for Recruiter to fetch a Grindstone which is great way to increase flexibility. He also makes the deck less linear, while not reducing our ability to combo.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  11. #791

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    I am testing 2 Goblin Engineer, and that feels right. i am not sure you want more than that at this time, but teh card is as fantastic as we thought...
    Do you play 3 Smuggler's Copter? I don't like that card to much, alone on the board is pretty useless, even if with Goblin Engineer can be a little better.
    About Enlightened Tutor, do you still play 3 of them, even with Goblin Engineer?

  12. #792

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Have you played him with the rough creature count that's used in most lists here?

    I wonder what the correlation is between people not liking copter in shortcake and not having tried him out. He is way better than he may look in theory for sure. I was also surprised, but nothing beats actual testing results..

  13. #793

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Daize View Post
    Have you played him with the rough creature count that's used in most lists here?

    I wonder what the correlation is between people not liking copter in shortcake and not having tried him out. He is way better than he may look in theory for sure. I was also surprised, but nothing beats actual testing results..
    I've played him on several occasions and really don't like it. It sits most of the time alone on board or when I can attack (or block) I don't have enough cards in hand or don't want to loot them away. I have a great dislike about it.

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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Darklingske View Post
    I've played him on several occasions and really don't like it. It sits most of the time alone on board or when I can attack (or block) I don't have enough cards in hand or don't want to loot them away. I have a great dislike about it.
    I don't really understand this, even if you're not looting you are still clocking your opponent or buying time to find the combo, a bridge or whatever else prevents you from dying. Why is that a bad thing? If you are playing copter you just have to be cognizant that it is in your deck. That means that instead of playing every land you draw, you keep a few in your hand to loot away with copter.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  15. #795

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Darklingske View Post
    I've played him on several occasions and really don't like it. It sits most of the time alone on board or when I can attack (or block) I don't have enough cards in hand or don't want to loot them away. I have a great dislike about it.
    I understand what you mean. However an early copter followed up with a creature the next turn that can crew and swing in for 3 in the air by turn 2 as well as filter through our deck is really valuable for not playing blue. Copter is pretty much our Delver. Your opponent needs to deal with it or they are going to die from damage while you are filtering for better cards. Are you running 16 creatures? I agree sometimes it does just sit there but when he’s active it is a threat your opponent needs to deal with. Also remember that Karn can crew the copter and swing in for two as well. So that should account for almost 1/3 of your deck that can crew copter.

    I’m really liking Goblin Engineer as well. I feel like that card has pretty much made Shortcake into more of a toolbox combo deck. We have so many ways to find the cards we need now between recruiter, enlightened tutor, Karn, and now goblin engineer.. I’m also not really worried if more grave hate is brought in against us because of engineer because Karn can just get it back for us.

    I am hesitant to cut an enlightened tutor for an engineer because I still value being able to EOT enlightened tutor for blood moon and then cast it on turn 2. It still comes up somewhat frequently for me.

  16. #796

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    I don't really understand this, even if you're not looting you are still clocking your opponent or buying time to find the combo, a bridge or whatever else prevents you from dying. Why is that a bad thing? If you are playing copter you just have to be cognizant that it is in your deck. That means that instead of playing every land you draw, you keep a few in your hand to loot away with copter.
    Maybe I'm playing in a weird environment, but my opponents usually let the copter resolve and just clean up the crew. And I'm very famous for having the most ridiculous manascrews, so I'm not very willing to just throw (loot) my lands away.

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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Copter is a clock, card filtering, and a way to get artifacts into yard for our welders as well as being an artifact to loot away themselves. Also remember the ability is a may so you don't have to do its ability. I definitely have had a few times where I'm creature light and copter is meh, but considering all of the synergies listed above I think it's worth it. And like it was said, it's also good with Karn since it still has the abilities when animated with him
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  18. #798
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @ Copter- I echo what most are saying. The card is fantastic and I would play a fourth if I had the room. It is even better with Engineer. The clock is critical to evaluating teh card as it often requires an answer saving our better stuff. Its ability to favorably interact with Planeswalker is very important. Yes sometimes it sits there, but we have so many ways to crew it that usually you are safe. Some of that may just be on the hands you kept being suboptimal. With respect to the filtering, even if you like all the cards in your hand it never hurts to draw another card and discard the worst card in your hand, especially when we have 5 dudes that can likely just cast that card for little to no mana.

    @E. Tutor- I am still on 3 at this time. I would think of Engineer as a compliment to E tutor rather than a replacement. I was trying to write an updated primer last night and some of these thoughts will be further fleshed out in it. I got 2 pages in before I was tired. I will try to get the second post on the front page updated with this document and thoughts. Then I will likely just update it as I write up the match up analysis and sideboarding. Untill the new mulligan rule takes effect, lots of that will change.

    But below is the deck I would likely run, except I want 16 cards in the board so I need one cut at this time, just not sure what that will be.

    Creatures
    4 Imperial Recruiters
    4 Painter’s Servant
    3 Goblin Welder
    2 Goblin Engineer
    1 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 Ethersworn Canonist

    Artifacts
    3 Grindstone
    3 Smuggler’s Copter
    1 Ensnaring Bridge

    Planeswalkers
    3 Karn, the Great Creator

    Enchantments
    1 Blood Moon

    Spells
    4 Pyroblast
    2 REB
    3 E tutor

    Mana
    4 Lotus Petal
    1 SSG
    1 LED
    5 fetch lands
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Mountains
    2 Plateau
    2 Great Furnace

    Sideboard
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Tormod’s Crypt
    1 Lattice
    1 Grindstone
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Relic of Progenitis
    1 Walking Ballista

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  19. #799

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by SDBobPlissken View Post
    I’m really liking Goblin Engineer as well. I feel like that card has pretty much made Shortcake into more of a toolbox combo deck.
    I think that it's not a good choice to have single copies of some important artifacts with Goblin Engineer in the maindeck. For example, if I have only one Ensnaring Bridge in my maindeck, and I need it, I can search it with Goblin Engineer. The problem is that if the Goblin Engineer dies, or the artifact I want to switch dies, I can't search another Ensnaring Bridge with Enlightened Tutor. I might not have the time to find a Goblin Welder or a second Goblin Engineer, in order to "reanimate" that single Ensnaring Bridge.


    Quote Originally Posted by SDBobPlissken View Post
    I am hesitant to cut an enlightened tutor for an engineer because I still value being able to EOT enlightened tutor for blood moon and then cast it on turn 2. It still comes up somewhat frequently for me.
    I don't think that Blood Moon is really good right now, with all those Miracles and UR Delver. That's a good card in a particular metagame, not good in much others.
    Turn 2 Blood Moon is good, but a lot of decks (like Miracles, UR Delver, Burn) used to have it in the sideboard even if they can make it only on turn 3.

  20. #800
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @Alex_UNLIMITED- Yes there is risk with the entomb of the Engineer. But there is also upside. Often times the match ups where you need the Bridge, the Engineer will be able to untap bc they either dont have removal, or hopefully spent it on your other threats as you should slow roll the Bridge in those match ups so that you are able to get maximum value from attacking. Also you have a copy in teh board with Karn, so we are effectively running many more copies of the card in teh main deck and side at this point. There is no room to run more Bridges in Shortcake. So if you are worried about the Engineer dying before he can weld in the Bridge, dont get a Bridge with his effect. In the end you only run one Bridge maindeck anyway. When you do grab it, you do so bc you are basically fucked without it and you need it now. Otherwise the Engineer should be garbiing more high value targets.

    @Blood Moon has its place in the deck. It def should not be more of a singleton in the main at this point, but there are plenty of decks that it hurts. Miracles, Grixis, Maverick, and to some extent Lands. It is not as strong as it use to be, but it does play a nice role helping to lock some of those decks off colors which can be huge. It can be a liablity against Lands list with Dark Depths interaction, but with Karn able to blow up Mox Diamond, you can still really mess with their mana. BLood Moon is still very strong against Miracles, even the UW variants. Its ability to help keep them off double blue while stopping shuffling is a nice effect that allows you to grind there.

    One thing to remember, we are a tier 1.5 deck. some match ups are terrible, sometimes our specific cards are just god awful in match ups. that comes with the territory.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

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