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Thread: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

  1. #441
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @Jasper: Regarding your thoughts on light up the stage, no offense, but you obviously haven't played with the card. First, I would say that I agree that cutting smuggler's copter for this card might not be ideal, and I would argue then don't do it! I'm playing with both in my list and now I feel like I can at least have a shot at keeping up with the card drawing engines we are constantly facing in blue. I think 3 copter plus 3 LutS is probably where we want to be. Copter is obviously also great at turning on spectacle. As far as not being as good at finding our combo pieces as cantrips, I guess you can make that argument because most cantrips see 3 cards vs 2; but we aren't playing blue, so the argument is moot. Thus, LutS is the best thing we got going. Also, there are pros and cons to not adding the cards to our hand. The biggest pro is that those cards can't get stripped out of our hand by cards like thoughtseize or hymn. Second, it doesn't fill up your hand for ensnaring bridge. And third, it's not actually drawing cards so gets around some of the issues associated with that. In fact, in my more "experimental" version of the deck splashing black, Chains of Mephistopheles is great out of the sideboard against blue decks for this very reason. It is pure card advantage and the card has more than proven itself in other decks already. As far as flipping a blast, it doesn't go unused, even if it is unused. Obviously if you have a painter on the board then it is a vindicate for R. Even if you don't have a painter on board I have had multiple opponents take an entire turn off just waiting for the blast to disappear. Time walk? Yes please. And I don't really understand your argument of it not being good because it doesn't affect the board. I guess nobody should play brainstorm or ponder either then. Card drawing engines are a staple in any combo deck. I will say that the difficulty lies in what should be cut to play the card. Again, I will agree with you that smuggler's copter is better than people give it credit for. After all, we are playing an A + B combo deck. We should be doing everything in our power to find the necessary pieces as fast as we can. I just think that you need to get a couple matches using LotS under your belt before you criticize it. You will likely change your tune.

    p.s. I also agree on your sentiments regarding goblin cratermaker. The Hanna's Custody issue is still up for debate, but as a one of I totally agree that it's impact is difficult to attain in a timely fashion. But against other heavy controlling decks you would just have to consider that, as you typically have time to set up. As I've been testing it, the times when it's on the board it is actually very good. It's just not realistic that you can get it on the board reasonably fast in most cases. You probably would actually need to play multiple copies for it to really have an effect. Given that Leonin Abunas is recruitable, that might be the card to go to if you are looking for this kind of effect, as e.tutor just has so many other likely more relevant targets.
    Last edited by drude1; 03-17-2019 at 04:49 PM.

  2. #442

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Got a lot of feedback to give after today’s event in Philly. Will follow up later.

  3. #443

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Got a lot of feedback to give after today’s event in Philly. Will follow up later.
    Excited! (couldn't play the deck yesterday, because my lava darts and LotS where still in the mail, but looking forward to it)

  4. #444

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Just as a sidenote, played Keller's list 2 weeks back (proxies where allowed). And managed to go 3-1 with it. Won 2 times against Steel Stompy and once against a Depth Renanimator deck and lost against infect (didn't see a since blast in both games and Blighted agent killed me because of it)

    Was super fun to play that list and both Copter as LotS did mayor work. Might wanna put in an extra Copter (number 3), but don't know what to cut. Also, Manic Vandal saved the game twice (steel stompy --> chalice), and with painter out it would be tricky to change it to cratermaker, but I agree, too much value all-around to not include him.

    3 Fiery confluences where also all-stars.


    So need to squeeze in an extra copter, and probably a Stuffy Doll (and a guilty conscience) maybe cutting a bridge. So very eager to see your feedback Michael.

  5. #445

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Don't play Guilty Conscience and Stuffy Doll. I was just trolling :)

  6. #446

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Don't play Guilty Conscience and Stuffy Doll. I was just trolling :)
    Awwww… still might try one on Thursday evening, just ffs.

  7. #447
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I'm on 3 Copter and 3 LUtS and the split is SO good. Going down to 5 blast in the maindeck is offset by the increased filtering.

    Has anyone tested Fiery Confluence extensively? I'm concerned about the 4 CMC. Sure, the card is nuts against artifact decks, but if something is going to take the SB slots I have reserved for Pyroclasm, it better be fast enough for the Pyroclasm-relevant matchups (Delver/Pyromance, Elves, Death and Taxes, etc).
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  8. #448

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    I'm on 3 Copter and 3 LUtS and the split is SO good. Going down to 5 blast in the maindeck is offset by the increased filtering.

    Has anyone tested Fiery Confluence extensively? I'm concerned about the 4 CMC. Sure, the card is nuts against artifact decks, but if something is going to take the SB slots I have reserved for Pyroclasm, it better be fast enough for the Pyroclasm-relevant matchups (Delver/Pyromance, Elves, Death and Taxes, etc).
    This past weekend I took out the Confluences and played two Pyroclasm.

    Here is a question I have for everyone: Do you think By Force or Rack and Ruin is better for artifact-based decks? Rack is conditional, obviously. The problem I always have using cards like these in those match-ups is wanting instant-speed reaction so I can free up mana the next main phase. Abrade is also very good.

    Goblin Tinkerer was in the original lists for Painter; I wonder if it has any merit against Chalice, Needle and Vial strategies right now - because realistically, those are the only artifacts we care about. And - it lives against them. Batterskull and Jitte can both be killed by Tinkerer, but at the cost of losing him. Still - if you kill those artifacts anyhow, it doesn't matter.

    EDIT: Tower of the Magistrate to save Tinkerer against artifacts decks and Stoneforge strategies?

  9. #449
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    This past weekend I took out the Confluences and played two Pyroclasm.

    Here is a question I have for everyone: Do you think By Force or Rack and Ruin is better for artifact-based decks? The problem I always have using cards like these in those match-ups is wanting instant-speed reaction so I can free up mana the next main phase. Abrade is also very good.

    Goblin Tinkerer was in the original lists for Painter; I wonder if it has any merit against Chalice, Needle and Vial strategies right now - because realistically, those are the only artifacts we care about. And - it lives against them. Batterskull and Jitte can both be killed by Tinkerer, but at the cost of losing him. Still - if you kill those artifacts anyhow, it doesn't matter.
    I really really like abrade. I'm torn on it and cratermaker. Cratermaker has just been so meh for me because of the painter interaction. Tinkerer is probably fine, but how much better than Heretic is it?
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  10. #450

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I really really like abrade. I'm torn on it and cratermaker. Cratermaker has just been so meh for me because of the painter interaction. Tinkerer is probably fine, but how much better than Heretic is it?
    Heretic costs one more mana to cast and one more mana to activate. The only artifacts we really, honestly and truly care about are Chalice and probably Vial (which kind of cuts off Blood Moon's profitability) - and Tinkerer survives when you activate it on them. Needle and Mox Diamond are also on the list, I suppose.

    EDIT: Tinkerer hits Inkmoth Nexus and lives - to a lesser extent.

  11. #451
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Cratermaker and Abrade are roughly equivalent, but with different downsides. Cratermaker's ability to shoot artifacts is inconsistent due to the color issue and Abrade is not tutorable. If you only have one slot for this, then Cratermaker is favored. If you have multiple SB slots available, then a few Abrades could be worthwhile.

    Given that Cratermaker dies to shoot an artifact, is Tinkerer really much different? I think if you're looking for repeated artifact removal, there's no real choice except Viashino Heretic.

    I'd be on 2 Abrades right now if I wasn't desperate to fit in 2x Pyroclasm. Maybe its time to try Hedgemage again?

    @MichaelKellerman: We're on the edge of our seats for that Philly tournament report!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  12. #452

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    Cratermaker and Abrade are roughly equivalent, but with different downsides. Cratermaker's ability to shoot artifacts is inconsistent due to the color issue and Abrade is not tutorable. If you only have one slot for this, then Cratermaker is favored. If you have multiple SB slots available, then a few Abrades could be worthwhile.

    Given that Cratermaker dies to shoot an artifact, is Tinkerer really much different? I think if you're looking for repeated artifact removal, there's no real choice except Viashino Heretic.
    The problem I've seen with Heretic is that you're not always going to have a Sol land to cast him reliably on turn two. There are times where he will legitimately be active on turn four. If you can put a Tinkerer into play on turn one (Lotus Petal, SSG) or turn two naturally, then honestly Tinkerer is strictly superior. Again - the only artifact in Legacy right now that's worth caring about is Chalice of the Void - and it survives hitting that.

    Consider that Wasteland also exists in the format, so if you somehow manage to land a Heretic on turn two off a Sol land and Mountain and it gets wasted, you won't be able to activate the Heretic if you don't have another mana source. However, if the same thing happens on turn two with a Tinkerer, you only need one red mana to activate it - which is very relevant.

    To be quite frank, I think - right now in Legacy - Goblin Tinkerer outclasses Heretic from top to bottom, and it's not very close.

  13. #453

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I like the idea of Copter+LutS as a card advantage engine (will be testing later tonight), which leads me to a seemingly unrelated question: How worth it is Cannonist?
    The main bonuses of the white splash so far have been Etutor and Cannonist. If Etutor can be replaced by LutS (I know it doesn't tutor, but it gets around Chalice and alongside Copter digs pretty deep without sacrificing card parity), then there's a possibility of keeping the combo focus of the deck without the complication of the white splash. I've never found cannonist to be that decisive, and often the color restrictions mean it doesn't always come down on turn 1 to stop Storm decks like Damping Sphere or Thorn of Amethyst would. Cutting both of those means that the deck can play Moon without shooting itself in the foot, doesn't have to worry about color restrictions, thus making things like Chandra or Confluence easier to reliably cast, and is also much less weak to wasteland strategies.
    ...And it becomes 3ish plateau's cheaper, which isn't the most pressing strategic concern but isn't irrelevant either.

  14. #454
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    The problem I've seen with Heretic is that you're not always going to have a Sol land to cast him reliably on turn two. There are times where he will legitimately be active on turn four. If you can put a Tinkerer into play on turn one (Lotus Petal, SSG) or turn two naturally, then honestly Tinkerer is strictly superior. Again - the only artifact in Legacy right now that's worth caring about is Chalice of the Void - and it survives hitting that.

    Consider that Wasteland also exists in the format, so if you somehow manage to land a Heretic on turn two off a Sol land and Mountain and it gets wasted, you won't be able to activate the Heretic if you don't have another mana source. However, if the same thing happens on turn two with a Tinkerer, you only need one red mana to activate it - which is very relevant.

    To be quite frank, I think - right now in Legacy - Goblin Tinkerer outclasses Heretic from top to bottom, and it's not very close.
    You make great points and normally I would agree. However with Stoneforge rising again, being Jitte reliably and sometimes SoFaI and Batterskull feels really relevant. Maybe Tinkerer and some Abrade or Fiery Confluence?

    Quote Originally Posted by finksfinksfinks View Post
    I like the idea of Copter+LutS as a card advantage engine (will be testing later tonight), which leads me to a seemingly unrelated question: How worth it is Cannonist?
    The main bonuses of the white splash so far have been Etutor and Cannonist. If Etutor can be replaced by LutS (I know it doesn't tutor, but it gets around Chalice and alongside Copter digs pretty deep without sacrificing card parity), then there's a possibility of keeping the combo focus of the deck without the complication of the white splash. I've never found cannonist to be that decisive, and often the color restrictions mean it doesn't always come down on turn 1 to stop Storm decks like Damping Sphere or Thorn of Amethyst would. Cutting both of those means that the deck can play Moon without shooting itself in the foot, doesn't have to worry about color restrictions, thus making things like Chandra or Confluence easier to reliably cast, and is also much less weak to wasteland strategies.
    ...And it becomes 3ish plateau's cheaper, which isn't the most pressing strategic concern but isn't irrelevant either.
    I think that any number of card advantage and filtering engines will never make up for the ability to go "End of your turn, cast ETutor, gg". Also, non-creature bullets can't be bullets anymore. We'd need 3+ of Blood Moons and Ensnaring Bridges if we wanted to play them. The utility options, like Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives, get really screwed over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  15. #455

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    You make great points and normally I would agree. However with Stoneforge rising again, being Jitte reliably and sometimes SoFaI and Batterskull feels really relevant. Maybe Tinkerer and some Abrade or Fiery Confluence?

    Honestly, Stoneforge decks are seriously the least of Painter's worries. They're typically slower decks, unless you're playing the awful version that runs Delver which seems to be falling out of favor quickly. Painter just has so many ways to brick wall those strategies. When it comes to cards like Jitte and Batterskull, sure - Heretic has advantages - notably that it survives against an opponent with two Jitte counters. However, in weighing the issues the deck has against the whole of the format, Chalice is by far and away the most troublesome card - which makes Tinkerer a better option. Painter already has game against Stoneforge decks by making everything blue, effectively nullifying Sword of Fire and Ice. It also has a toughness of three, so Jitte has a harder time against that, as well.


    I just think the bargain mana and activation cost of Tinkerer against Chalice outweighs Heretic in the early game. That's when Tinkerer works best - and when you'd need to stop Chalice most. Confluence is okay, and I liked it. I mean, if people are advocating trying out CMC=4 planeswalkers out of the sideboard as an alternate option to go wide against control, then sidestepping those slots and filling them with the utility of Confluence seems fine if your list is built better overall for the control matchup.


    I think that any number of card advantage and filtering engines will never make up for the ability to go "End of your turn, cast ETutor, gg". Also, non-creature bullets can't be bullets anymore. We'd need 3+ of Blood Moons and Ensnaring Bridges if we wanted to play them. The utility options, like Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives, get really screwed over.
    Keep in mind that Surgical Extraction's stock is at an all-time high in both Legacy and Modern. That makes Enlightened Tutor substantially worse in post-board games against competent opponents. This is why I eschewed Stage this past weekend (to your other point) in Shortcake, because I think it's superior in Imperial Painter - not Shortcake. I think Imperial Painter (mono red) can be much more aggressive and has a better opportunity to be built properly to take advantage of Stage.

  16. #456

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Are we discussing to included Goblin Tinkerer in the main deck (as a replacement for vandal/cratermaker) or more like a sideboard spot (with a cratermaker main). I would go with the latter option.

    And I agree that the speed of tinkerer outclasses all the advantages of heretic.

    Stupid question, if Rack and Ruin is on the stack, and the opponent can remove one of those targets, does it fizzle? (I'm just confused because of the wording)

  17. #457
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @Xod: you only need one legal target upon resolution. Edit: said by a non-judge.
    Last edited by pettdan; 03-19-2019 at 07:14 AM.

  18. #458
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    @Xod: you only need one legal target upon resolution. Edit: said by a non-judge.
    That is correct, a spell only fails to resolve if all it's legal targets are now illegal. Otherwise, the spell does as much as it can.
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  19. #459
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    So I'm not really getting the issues people are having with cratermaker. I understand that it doesn't work to kill artifacts when a painter is out, but in game 1 you are usually going after a chalice and that is usually getting played on turn 1 or two. Just don't play a painter if they have dropped a chalice. I have had a couple games where the problem has been a jitte, but then the opponent usually just kills painter ASAP and I drop cratermaker and kill the jitte.
    The overall utility of cratermaker in taking out a delver or pyromancer or thalia or the 30 other relevant creatures along with artifacts is just too good. Also, there is nothing more satisfying than dropping a cratermaker to a show and tell and blowing up the opponent's Emrakul. I had a game 2 days ago where I actually recruited for a cratermaker and my opponent STILL played show and tell into Emrakul. I also recently played a game where I was playing another deck and got my Ugin destroyed by a cratermaker against goblins. There is really no excuse to not having that card in at least your 75 right now. Also, if you really want some recurrent artifact and creature hate AND make artifact fodder for welder shenanigans, splash black and play Daretti! He's a house.

    Also, has anyone considered forked bolt for creature removal? Seems good right now, although I really wish it was an instant.

  20. #460

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Thought long and hard on this one. I took everyone's feedback, incorporated my experiences and came up with this draft:

    4 Painter's Servant
    3 Goblin Welder
    3 Imperial Recruiter
    2 Goblin Cratermaker
    2 Mother of Runes
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Magus of the Moon

    4 Grindstone
    2 Smuggler's Copter
    2 Ensnaring Bridge

    4 Pyroblast
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Enlightened Tutor

    1 Blood Moon

    4 Mountain
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Arid Mesa
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Plateau
    1 Plains
    1 Karakas
    1 Great Furnace

    //SB
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Pyroclasm
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Grim Lavamancer
    1 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Meekstone
    1 Blood Moon

    Since the deck is less "all-in" on Blood Moon turn one, I cut the Petals and Spirit Guides and just went with a straight-forward, basic approach: a healthy balance of creatures, removal and permission and lands.

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