Cheers Davek. Just my pov, I'm not suddenly an authority :-)
I've felt exactly the same about Blood Moon. From my PoV it's a 4 of (instead of 1, or 2) because of (1) higher chances of getting it ASAP, when it counts, and (2) having redundancy. Even if just the moon-by-proxy, i.e. playing a mountain makes your opponent play more slowly by making sub-par, you already gained something. It's just really strong against a couple of strong decks atm: Storm (t1), RUG Delver, Depths. Against the other decks, just side it out.
Wurmcoil Engine - I've been going back and forth on him, but for now he's a great lightning rod that I could potentially hardcast. I agree with you on that point.
I haven't felt the need for 2 Tormod's Crypt. Honestly, SnT I feel is a lost cause, and if you're winning it's not because of 2 Crypt - it's because your opponent doesn't have counters. vs SnT, I'd rather go for a disruption plan and a Wurmcoil beats, or karn shenanigans, than spend resources on a very fragile 2 card combo. SnT is just a terrible matchup.
I haven't really found the need to ever get a Needle/Spyglass, is why. Even if in theory they have their applications.
The deck runs enough artifacts for the Opals, never had the trouble. They're like Petals that don't go away, and 2 feels like the right number, they're great.
I'm actually thinking about adding more blasts (sideboard) and maybe switching out Wurmcoil or Canonist for Ichor Wellspring to try it out. Astrolabe has been great as a card draw engine and mana fixer, so I'm interested to see if there's any improvement there.
As for LED, I never felt that they were wrong. While I've yet to get into the situation that it was a (bad) topdeck for me, the black lotus has been amazing against fast decks and e.g. RUG delver to keep extra mana open for counters / paying off daze/pierce, and then have 3 for activation. I wouldn't use them for an all-in combo unless you're safe. If anything, you're threatening the combo ridiculously early, and can just keep playing freely with the "I win button" on the board, which otherwise would have you keep the significant amount of 3 mana open.
So, I think this discussion has been around for a while and is ultimately a meta call. One disadvantage of Wurmcoil is that it doesn't do much vs unfair matchups, while Sundering Titan can pull the rug from under any opponent's feet by demolishing their mana base. Neither option is perfect, whichever you choose is going to leave you unhappy in some matchups. I think I right now tend to go for the alternative that seems to have wider applicability and also be more powerful but less consistent, that is the Sundering Titan. I can see continuing switching between the two..
Got another anecdote, i.e. another 4-0 in the local. I just made some minor changes to the decklist.
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Goblin Welder
3 Painter's Servant
4 Pyroblast
3 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Plateau
3 City of Traitors
4 Goblin Engineer
1 Ethersworn Canonist
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Mox Opal
2 Seasoned Pyromancer (was Imperial Recruiter)
4 Blood Moon
1 Prismatic Vista
4 Arid Mesa
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Red Elemental Blast (was 1 Goblin Cratermaker 1 Glass Casket)
1 Painter's Servant
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Trinisphere
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
Reasoning behind the changes: I wanted to have a longer game plan like shortcake has with chaining 4 Imperial Recruiters versus Miracles. I don't want to spend 4 slots to Recruiter anymore (I don't really have issues finding my combo - by now, faster would mean more fragile / not protected). Instead I'm trying the be-a-dude-make-dudes-give-me-cards-and-doit-from-the-grave dude. Was strong one game, but haven't drawn into him the other games - which is fine.
2 [card]Red Elemental blast[/card] in the sideboard isn't a new idea - it has been done before to go up from 6 to 8 blast effects against heavy blue decks, instead I'd go up from 4 to 6. Cheap redundancy hitting a non-blue-but-painted target at its best, otherwise..
Match 1 vs Mono B Reanimator
Game 1 (play)
He got a mulligan to 6, I started out with an Engineer + Grindstone in hand. T1 Grindstone, he discarded my Engineer with Unmask, T2 I drew into painter, T3 kill.
I only saw swamps, so I thought he'd be on Mono Black Reanimator. Blood Moon would have been too slow anyway. I guess I should have boarded in the Crypt for e.g. a seasoned pyromancer or Karn.
SB: +3 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Ensnaring Bridge -4 Blood Moon, -1 Canonist, -1 Wurmcoil Engine
Game 2
I start out with Surgical Extraction in my hand, 3 engineers and lands. I doubt whether I should keep it as I don't have any artifacts. I'm on the draw, and I try it out. I probably should have mulliganed it as he can discard my extraction, entomb, and go wild. Instead, he passes - I draw an Ensnaring Bridge - and Entombs Griseldaddy on my endstep. I think for a bit and also in the end step I Extract the demon since I was unsure if he'd play any instant speed reanimation effects (he didn't). He shows me a Lake of the Dead, Unmask, Animate Dead, and more lands. Next turn he Unmasks the Bridge, and I start throwing Engineers down, his answer is a [card]Rotting Regisaur[/card]. It takes me a bit but with the Ensnaring Bridge, his empty hand, and the Engineers, I grind his library away.
Match 2 vs Lands
Game 1 (play) he mulligans to 5.. I get a Blood Moon down early. Then Karn, Engineer for Bridge, Lattice, and he puts a Punishing Fire on my Karn. I weld away Lattice to prevent him using Lattice for all the mana, all the colours. I get a Seasoned Pyromancer down ditching 2 Pyroblasts, and start the beatdown. He scoops.
SB: +2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, -1 Wurmcoil Engine, -1 Canonist, -1 Pyroblast, -1 Seasoned Pyromancer, -1 Karn
Game 2
Start out with a Bridge, Surgical, and a Painter, LED. He casts a T3 loam, I extract it. In response, he crop rotates and Bojuka Bog's himself (yay for wasting resources). I draw into a Welder and Grindstone. I get Welder online, and play out painter & grindstone in 1 turn, and pass. End of turn (with 4 mana open) he copies his swamp with Thespian's Stage. I let it go thinking it's a bait.. Then in his main phase, he taps out to cast Leyline of the Void. I respond with crack LED, grindstone him. He tries Force of Vigor all still with Leyline on the stack, but he can't prevent anything because of Welder. <3.
Match 3 vs Turbo Depths
Game 1 (draw)
He has a T1 Sylvan Library. I get a fairly quick combo from a T1 Grindstone and try it out in his upkeep. He has the decay on painter. I get a Blood Moon down, he has another decay for Blood Moon. Then I get an Engineer in play. Decay. He gets a Bob down, I get a Welder down at some point and am able to get the combo online his EOT, then switch to my turn to have a Welder protected Grindstone activation in his upkeep, which resolves.
SB:+3 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Painter, +1 Grindstone, -1 Wurmcoil Engine, -1 Canonist, -2 Karn, -2 Seasoned Pyromancer
Game 2
I start out with 2 Astrolabes, Painter, Welder. He discards my Welder with Inquisition. I draw into land and another painter, and I commence the bea- oh, Hexmage & Depths.
Game 3
This ends up being the crazy match of the night. I keep a hand with Painter, Welder, Engineer, Blood Moon, Astrolabe, and mountain + Sol land. He discards my painter and throws a Surgical Extraction at it. Early Blood Moon but no Mox Diamond, Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Welder, 1 Engineer, a 2nd Blood Moon should be a lot of redundancy while he plays draw go. I throw down another 2 Engineers, and pretty much draw through 2/3rd of my deck and put most of it on the table by drawing 3-4 cards a turn. I finally find the Karn for Painter and combo out.
Match 4 vs "Wishclaw Storm"
Game 1 (draw)
I have no idea what he played before we started. I put down a T1 Welder, a T3 Blood Moon, he shrugs and throws half his deck + tendrils on the table in his turn.
SB: +1 Painter, +1 Grindstone, +1 Canonist +1 Trinisphere, +2 Surgical Extraction, -1 Wurmcoil Engine, -2 Seasoned Pyromancer, -1 Ensnaring Bridge, -2 Astrolabe
Game 2
I have a pretty quick hand with Engineer, Welder, painter. I draw a LED and petal. No discard and I get to play welder, Engineer, the combo pieces and I try to go off in his upkeep with LED. I expect a bounce and hope to play my hand out again next turn to try again by welding in LED. Instead he has Abrupt Decay (?), and I just weld painter back in.
Game 3
I start with Welder, Canonist, and Blood Moon in hand. I have a T2 Canonist that felt really, really slow. But then Blood Moon, Karn, Engineer, Astrolabe kind of seals him off, and I try to take it slow to be able to respond to whatever he comes up with. I relatively slowly build up my combo. I wait till I have welder and Engineer online and activate Grindstone. I get a Chain of Vapor on my Painter, but I sacrifice him out, and weld him back in.
Engineers and Welders are amazing, and they're such great protection pieces. I'm still really happy with the configuration, the list should just be tested more against blue decks.
sup Drude1
Thought of you when I was watching mardu painter on stream at eternal weekend who was playing wishclaw
We back homies, it's certainly been a minute since my last post here.
Here is what I plan on testing, with usual thoughts after.
Strawberry Shortcake
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Goblin Engineer
3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Karn, the Great Creator
Side:
1 Grindstone
1 Painter's Servant
1 Mycosynth Lattice
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Lightning Bolt
So what's different. Not much compared to the last couple months. I chose to start with my summer list, rather than what I was experimenting with at the tail end of Wrenn-land. I am back on my trusty 19 land manabase. I tried 20 land and 1 less fast mana to be able to fit in Karn, but that was moreso when getting waste-locked was happening every other game. Too often whenever I've played 20 land the extra was just slow. Even though the curve is higher, it's still legacy and I'd rather be able to have better nut draws and pray to get there in the other games. London is a huge boon to this strategy as well.
For fast mana, I am still trying out the 5th slot, be it 4th petal/2nd monkey, but since I am trying to fit in a 3rd Goblin Engineer the extra artifact makes more sense. Plus Shortcake still wants to splash for E-tutor, so for now 4th petal makes too much sense.
3rd Goblin Engineer. Everyone else has been raving about him, and I agree that he is pretty insane, even if you are like me and don't want to play Astrolabe. Fitting the 3rd comes at the expense of the maindeck Cratermaker, but for now I am okay with that while the meta shakes out. A copy of Cratermaker should definitely be in the 75, and for now I just threw it in the board, since he comes up in too many random cases as the perfect card. I expect a lot of Null Rods and Pithing Needles to still be floating around.
4 Karn. Probably the second most broken card we've had access to behind Top. I was on 3 over the summer, but I think the deck will be stronger overall just playing the full set and building around him. I plan on experimenting more with siding some number out in certain matchups, and playing with the numbers of bringing wish targets back in. I really think we've barely scratched the surface on how to optimally play Karn.
For the board everything is pretty standard. Two crypts, one to board for e-tutor/engineer and one to leave for Karn. Surgical's stock will certainly rise with Mystic Sanctuary miracles on the rise, and its still a great card against the rogue reanimator players. Bolt has been a fantastic all around card, and with the prominence of planeswalkers in legacy I still prefer it over other things like Magmatic Sinkhole. Plus, bolt is a much better card with Copter around, as sending them to the dome can definitely win games. Without Copter I could see rethinking the bolt spots.
As for meta expectations, I am guessing that people will play wrennless rug for a while, before fatal push grixis delver returns in force. 1-2 Drop and Taxes will also pick back up, and you can usually count on some number of Ape and Chimp pilots in the room. The biggest thing is that Miracles will 100% be tier 1. I always say, it is only a matter of time before Miracles returns to the top. It is never dead, and Wizards will always shape the metagame around making sure its one of the best decks. No matter what happens, Painter is still going to be better positioned post-ban, since Goblin Welder is rightfully back on top as Legacy's most powerful 1 drop.
Strawberry Shortcake
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...erry-Shortcake
What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods
#FreeNedleeds
Looks good Jack, I am keen to see how it goes if you are streaming that would be awesome. In response to w6, the deck has de-res’ed with heaps of variation. It would be good to see a stable list that we can get back to perfecting again.
At this point with how many new cards there are there really won't be a standard list anymore. Like for me, I'll probably always build starting with 4 recruiter. Others have shaved copies or removed him altogether, but i've been jamming the playset for almost 8 years now and he's saved my ass too many times I don't think I can cut him. So with that in mind it makes sense to add Copters. Or another example is I don't know if I can bring myself to play astrolabes and not run my p3k mountains, or run a plains because then I'd have to run Arid Mesa over Onslaught fetches.
Small things like that add up and can pigeonhole towards certain variants or builds. That, and I probably don't have enough time to test out all the other variants, so I just stick with the core I am comfortable with and tweak cards every now and then
Strawberry Shortcake
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...erry-Shortcake
What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods
#FreeNedleeds
Maybe, I just think once a list posts consistent result things will stabilise. Hopefully it’s close to your list as I too have too many alters to want too much change. Anyway, go get’em tiger!
So I’ve been away from the game for a short bit (combination of hospitalised and sick of the shifting meta), and have been trying to find a nice stock list to start from again. Currently, I’m running:
20 lands (4 fetches, 7 sol, 2 plateau)
4 recruiter
4 welder
3 engineer
4 painter
1 magus of the moon
1 canonist
4 astrolabe
1 led
2 petals
3 grindstone
4 karn
6 blasts
1 bridge
2 enlightened tutor
It feels a bit off when I’ve been messing about with it, though I’m not sure if it’s rust or deck.
I wanna find more space for all 4 lotus petals and at least 1 blood moon, but space seems hard to come by. I’m tempted to cut the blasts, but they’ve been really good as an out to many situations.
I’d cut the enlightened tutors, but then having the 1-of blood moon doesn’t work at that point.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Sweet, didn't realize we had been moved to the established decks forum. I posted on the discord also but figured I'd leave the link here too. I went 7-2 in the MTGO Legacy Format playoffs coming in 17th place with Shortcake. Here is the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsdvsSZy_y8 . Figured I'd list the match ups and how each game was won as well.
The list:
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
3 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
1 great furnace
2 plateau
4 mountain
4 imperial recruiter
3 painter's servant
3 goblin welder
2 goblin engineer
1 goblin cratermaker
1 ethersworn canonist
2 simian spirit guide
3 lotus petal
1 lion's eye diamond
3 blood moon
1 ensnaring bridge
2 enlightened tutor
4 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
3 smuggler's copter
3 grindstone
3 Karn, the Great Creator
Sideboard:
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
2 tormod's crypt
1 ethersworn canonist
4 lightning bolt
2 surgical extraction
1 painter's servant
1 grindstone
1 wurmcoil engine
1 ensnaring bridge
Round 1: vs BUG Hogaak
G1: A late blood moon locks him out after we trade resources
G2: Combo
Round 2: vs UWG Snow Control
G1: Combo
G2: Lattice Lock
Round 3: vs Wishclaw Storm
G1: Loss to Tendrils
G2: Loss to turn a timely Crash on my turn 2 after activating the combo. I lose to tendrils again
Round 4: vs Mono U Painter
G1: Combo
G2: Karn/Coating Lock
Round 5: vs Lands
G1: Loss to Marit Lage
G2: Combo
G3: Combo w/ Blood Moon after a long grind
Round 6: vs BUG Hogaak
G1: Combo
G2: Combo/Moon
Round 7: vs Death and Taxes
G1: Combo after landing an early blood moon and he had no basics
G2: Loss to a well timed wasteland and could not catch up in time
G3: Loss to typical DNT things
Round 8: vs 4c UWBG Snow Control
G1: Coating Lock
G2: Combo
Round 9: vs Aluren
G1: Combo
G2: Loss
G3: Combo
Deck felt pretty good and I don't think there are many changes I would like to make at this time.
I really wanna ask about liquimetal coating.
I personally think it’s great, but at times, it’s so bad, and dependent upon karn, I’m not sure it’s worth the sideboard slot. How useful was it for you?
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
There’s a fairly large difference between 4 (Karn) and 6 mana, moreso if playing around Daze. Likely not worth cutting when your deck is able to do something with Coating in the event that Karn dies (possibly Weld out their PWs, Weld out your lands for cards, silence a Walker during their next turn, etc...). While it’s not the best to activate Grindstone the hard way, you are more likely to turn over an artifact (Astrolabe); knocking out a Jace or Oko like this [Coat, Weld giving them Astro] will keep you in the game longer. There’s no other wish target that really offers to gradually take over a game with finesse (particularly if Karn should die immediately after wishing) quite like Coating.
For me, coatings effectiveness really hinges on karn surviving. It’s that that really gives me pause when I wish for stuff.
I’ve also run original karn and gorilla shaman before too, just as an extra coating friend.
Welding my opponents stuff has been a very fringe use case for me generally. I think the most effective it’s ever been was when there was an opposing ballista in the yard, and then I basically went nuts.
So you would say that coating is amazing, and I should give it another go?
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
I don’t think it’s all that amazing, but it is the only card that is showing up in this archetypes SBs that can wished for and really drive a game in the direction of Welder. The other wish targets have pretty much one use, while Coating offers to disrupt opponents or advance your plans (even if they kill Karn).
I think coating is a good alternative target to get. It is something that the opponent can’t really let you have online with an activate Karn. Coating is good to grab when you don’t have enough mana to cast a lattice (possibly with blast back up), you don’t have any pieces of the combo, or your combo isn’t gonna survive. The majority of time I am able to abuse coating is against Uw miracles w/ oko decks. If you feel like that’s a good match up already without coating then maybe it’s not worth it. I think that with Oko the match up becomes a little more difficult as the recruiter chain becomes less reliable due to the fact that they can turn their astrolabes into elks.
It’s been a tough sell, but I’m still giving it a go.
Speaking of tough sells though, does anyone have anything good to say about earnest fellowship? The only card it’s been weak against is abrupt decay so far, and at least it wastes one of their cards for one of mine. Was unsure if the slot should be a swift foot boots or something instead. Thoughts?
Or hannas custody?
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Got 9th in the Legacy Challenge last week and 2nd in the challenge this past Sunday (~100 players) with the following list. Post-Wrenn Legacy is primed for Shortcake and I'm really liking where the list is right now starting 2020. I'll put together a report in the coming days with some longer ideas.
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Goblin Engineer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Karn, the Great Creator
Sideboard:
1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Red Elemental Blast
Strawberry Shortcake
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...erry-Shortcake
What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods
#FreeNedleeds
Newest testing list:
Strawberry Shortcake
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Goblin Engineer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler’s Copter
3 Karn, the Great Creator
Sideboard:
1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Lightning Bolt
Only change is I want to try out a Soul-Guide Lantern over the 2nd crypt. Ever since Karn came out, I have been purposefully not boarding him out even in faster matchups because I wanted to see how he would perform. Now, against decks like Delver and Reanimator I have been shaving down or fully cutting if I don't expect Surgical. It's an interesting dynamic boarding the 4th Grindstone and other sideboard cards back in.
For Lantern, I am curious to see how often the upside of it as a value Karn wish target in Game 1 comes up vs wishing it was a Crypt in postboard games. The Goblin Engineer/Welder dynamic of having a weird draw engine and card that can help draw into Enlightened Tutor targets is also at play.
Lantern is a lot worse than crypt against Reanimator because they play Chancellor, which came up in some recent games of mine and stopped it from being a turn 1 play if you don't have a Sol Land or Fast mana. I am hopeful that the value elsewhere makes it a worthwhile inclusion, but for graveyard matchups Crypt is definitely better. (Lantern dodges Leyline of Sanctity too I guess, but Dredge might cut back on those)
Lastly, I think we line up pretty well against Breach. Blasts buy time, and our combo can be just as fast. Karn and Canonist also play huge roles, so luckily for us if this deck becomes even bigger than it is right now I don't think it will really warrant any changes to the list
Strawberry Shortcake
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...erry-Shortcake
What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods
#FreeNedleeds
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