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Thread: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

  1. #721
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoCop 90 View Post
    I almost mever leave comments here, but i play painter occasionally and it's hard to not get excited with new karn and goblin engineer being printed in back to back sets. I think painter now has really the potential o become tier one.

    With that in mind, though, i think we should consider that one of the strengths of this deck has always been its versatility. Meaning that we are a combo deck that can also play prison, control or sometimes aggro. If we start playing too many welders/engineers and up the great furnaces count to 4, we become extremely vulnerable to graveyard hate and stuff like null rod. The same goes for cutting enlightened tutor and blood moon with it : i don't think it's wise to completely lose the angle of attack of "slam blood moon win the game".

    It will be a challenge to find the right build with so many tutors at our disposal. We just need to not go too "all-in" on some stuff i think.
    I very much agree here. Currently being a combo deck that doesn't care about the graveyard is pretty nice. I've had matches where I do welder shenanigans game 1, my opponent boards in random graveyard hate, then game 2 I just don't do anything with the graveyard and won anyway. It is very nice that you basically don't care about a RIP or whatever. I think engineer is a nice card in addition to what we have, but I don't think it's necessarily a card that we want to lean on. Basically my same feelings on welder, yes it can do dumb things if my Opponents don't interact with it, but if they do I don't really care and sometimes it just clears the way for my next broken thing that I do.
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  2. #722
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Thoughts on a singleton Grim Monolith?
    Interesting that you should bring that up. A 5-0 MTGO list from yesterday has a Grim Monolith, which I haven't seen before. It's mono-red and not shortcake, but I figured it would be of interest.

  3. #723

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Interesting that you should bring that up. A 5-0 MTGO list from yesterday has a Grim Monolith, which I haven't seen before. It's mono-red and not shortcake, but I figured it would be of interest.
    Thanks for sharing. Not a fan too much of that list, but it is what it is.

    I just think Grim Monolith has merit because it's not all in like LED. LED, while fantastic, to me is a card that has the ability to outright win you games, but the problem is it's really not a card I would want to Tutor for or Karn for, because it's not really doing anything outside of building towards a combo turn unimpeded. I just don't see that as being realistic in Legacy and it would really only be optimal in the opening hand or second turn.

    Of course, opening with LED is a different story, which is why I think it's better in mono red shells that can abuse Welder (and now Engineer). I mean, let's say someone gets Karn in and grabs an LED out of the board, and then Karn dies. What are you getting out of LED at that point that matters? If you have Monolith in play, you don't necessarily have to tap it and discard your hand; you can use it to power out whatever without much of a drawback.

    My list is also different than some of the folks in here because the fabric includes cards like Liquimetal Coating, Gorilla Shaman and the like. Since I run two Coating main and one in the board, in addition to Goblin Welder and likely an Engineer (or two), I'm looking at Dack Fayden carefully and adding a Volc to the main and readjusting the mana base.

    Being able to Coating something like Jace or an opponent's key card and steal it with Dack is ridiculous. Not to mention Dack is just great by himself.

    EDIT: Fixed.

  4. #724

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I played against repia1152 (the dude with the mono red list that 5-0’d) in the practice room on Mtgo. Is he active on this thread? He was actually trying out a new list in the practice room when I played him that splashed green and ran 4 groves with 3 punishing fires. Also had mirri’s guile and talisman of impulse. I thought the list looked kinda clunky and he said it was still a work in progress but I tried it out playing against storm, land, DNT, and miracles and it felt pretty good, especially vs miracles since it plays 4 Karn, 2 Chandra ToD, and 3 choke in the sideboard.

  5. #725
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Thanks for sharing. Not a fan too much of that list, but it is what it is.

    I just think Grim Monolith has merit because it's not all in like LED. LED, while fantastic, to me is a card that has the ability to outright win you games, but the problem is it's really not a card I would want to Tutor for or Karn for, because it's not really doing anything outside of building towards a combo turn unimpeded. I just don't see that as being realistic in Legacy and it would really only be optimal in the opening hand or second turn.

    Of course, opening with LED is a different story, which is why I think it's better in mono red shells that can abuse Welder (and now Engineer). I mean, let's say someone gets Karn in and grabs an LED out of the board, and then Karn dies. What are you getting out of LED at that point that matters? If you have Monolith in play, you don't necessarily have to tap it and discard your hand; you can use it to power out whatever without much of a drawback.

    My list is also different than some of the folks in here because the fabric includes cards like Liquimetal Coating, Gorilla Shaman and the like. Since I run two Coating main and one in the board, in addition to Goblin Welder and likely an Engineer (or two), I'm looking at Dack Fayden carefully and adding a Volc to the main and readjusting the mana base.

    Being able to Coating something like Jace or an opponent's key card and steal it with Dack is ridiculous. Not to mention Dack is just great by himself.

    EDIT: Fixed.
    i have been thinking more about using coating in the 75 and tested a few in the sb. they are fine cards, but having something like dack fayden would help quite a bit. i think it's possible if you are using dack you'll want to run at least 1 mox opal in there (if you aren't already).

    LED + welder being able to power out a lattice by itself with karn is worth more testing. if there's some bigger artifacts that might get clunky in opening hands then LED can also solve for that, but that is a bit more fringe.
    -rob

  6. #726

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Has anyone tried to playtest with Seasoned Pyromancer? It digs for the combo, enables graveyard/welder shenanigans, and is generally a good value creature (note that you just draw two with no drawbacks if you cast this while hellbent). It's also recruitable. The manacost shouldn't be that prohibitive given that Jaya used to be a mainstay in the deck.

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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    My list is also different than some of the folks in here because the fabric includes cards like Liquimetal Coating, Gorilla Shaman and the like. Since I run two Coating main and one in the board, in addition to Goblin Welder and likely an Engineer (or two), I'm looking at Dack Fayden carefully and adding a Volc to the main and readjusting the mana base.

    Being able to Coating something like Jace or an opponent's key card and steal it with Dack is ridiculous. Not to mention Dack is just great by himself.
    I'm developing a UR list into that same direction. Some of the interactions that Liquimetal Coating enables are completely bonkers, but I'm not sure yet if I want a combo-ish Painter shell, or a controll-ish Thopter/Sword shell...

  8. #728
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Thanks for sharing. Not a fan too much of that list, but it is what it is.

    I just think Grim Monolith has merit because it's not all in like LED. LED, while fantastic, to me is a card that has the ability to outright win you games, but the problem is it's really not a card I would want to Tutor for or Karn for, because it's not really doing anything outside of building towards a combo turn unimpeded. I just don't see that as being realistic in Legacy and it would really only be optimal in the opening hand or second turn.

    Of course, opening with LED is a different story, which is why I think it's better in mono red shells that can abuse Welder (and now Engineer). I mean, let's say someone gets Karn in and grabs an LED out of the board, and then Karn dies. What are you getting out of LED at that point that matters? If you have Monolith in play, you don't necessarily have to tap it and discard your hand; you can use it to power out whatever without much of a drawback.
    You are working under the assumption that you aren't missing any land drops, and we all know how unlikely that is with this deck. One of the best things about LED is that you can totally function and combo off with 2 lands (or even 1 land and fast Mana).

    In your example of getting LED off Karn and then having Karn die, I probably wouldn't be getting LED off of Karn if opponent had enough power on board to kill Karn UNLESS it was going to enable me to combo that turn, or I needed to empty my hand because I had bridge on board and wanted to protect my Karn. Monolith doesn't do either of those or anything more for you than LED does in that position. It's just a turn slower to play out and use. The one advantage i see monolith having over LED would be if it was in your opening hand and you wanted to power out an early Karn. You could play Sol land into monolith turn 1 into Karn turn 2. Also, once engineer becomes legal then putting monolith into graveyard off the engineer has advantages over LED if you don't want to discard your hand. So if anything I would consider playing monolith main and LED as wish target, not the other way around.



    Game yesterday with turn 2 win through a spell pierce against U/W stoneblade. LED was gross here.

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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by drude1 View Post


    Game yesterday with turn 2 win through a spell pierce against U/W stoneblade. LED was gross here.
    God I fucking love Goblin Welder.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

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  10. #730

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by drude1 View Post
    You are working under the assumption that you aren't missing any land drops, and we all know how unlikely that is with this deck. One of the best things about LED is that you can totally function and combo off with 2 lands (or even 1 land and fast Mana).
    You can, but you’re going all in. You can’t protect yourself when you have to discard your hand.

    In your example of getting LED off Karn and then having Karn die, I probably wouldn't be getting LED off of Karn if opponent had enough power on board to kill Karn UNLESS it was going to enable me to combo that turn, or I needed to empty my hand because I had bridge on board and wanted to protect my Karn. Monolith doesn't do either of those or anything more for you than LED does in that position. It's just a turn slower to play out and use. The one advantage i see monolith having over LED would be if it was in your opening hand and you wanted to power out an early Karn. You could play Sol land into monolith turn 1 into Karn turn 2. Also, once engineer becomes legal then putting monolith into graveyard off the engineer has advantages over LED if you don't want to discard your hand. So if anything I would consider playing monolith main and LED as wish target, not the other way around.
    I’d do the same, but I wouldn’t put LED in the board, nor Monolith. If I have the mana to cast Karn, that buys time because he’s a serious threat alone. This is where mulligan strategy becomes more important: Are you keeping a double Sol land hand with Karn? I guess I’m more in the content camp of not wanting to go all-in with LED. The only way I’d want to is if I were running four Welders and Faithless Looting in a mono red shell to seriously abuse it. Otherwise, with Grindstone in the sideboard as a Karn target, LED main or board is actually worse because you statistically have a lower chance of opening with Grindstone to win fast.

    I just refuse to spend four mana and a whole turn to grab a mana source - even if once in a while something like LED would win a game or two. I’d much rather cast Grim Monolith turn one to get to six mana in turn two and win the same way.

  11. #731
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    You can, but you’re going all in. You can’t protect yourself when you have to discard your hand.



    I’d do the same, but I wouldn’t put LED in the board, nor Monolith. If I have the mana to cast Karn, that buys time because he’s a serious threat alone. This is where mulligan strategy becomes more important: Are you keeping a double Sol land hand with Karn? I guess I’m more in the content camp of not wanting to go all-in with LED. The only way I’d want to is if I were running four Welders and Faithless Looting in a mono red shell to seriously abuse it. Otherwise, with Grindstone in the sideboard as a Karn target, LED main or board is actually worse because you statistically have a lower chance of opening with Grindstone to win fast.

    I just refuse to spend four mana and a whole turn to grab a mana source - even if once in a while something like LED would win a game or two. I’d much rather cast Grim Monolith turn one to get to six mana in turn two and win the same way.
    First, you may not have the Mana to cast Karn... again. What if you cast Karn with a Sol land and 2 petals? You may be exactly protecting yourself when you have to discard your hand.
    Again, read my previous post. I am getting LED if it wins me the game or protects Karn. I know how the game works and I understand board positions. But if I can turn 2 Karn into turn 3 lattice with an LED, there are game states where that is definitely the play. Also, discarding your hand becomes much less of a liability when engineer comes out, as you now have multiple ways to abuse your graveyard.

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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    I think the big argument against LED is, Is the extra speed that it provides enough to warrant it's all in nature? Also how often could you win anyway without it? How many games does it win you versus the amount of games that whatever card you're taking out for it win you? Me personally I'm interested in it when the new Welder comes out and I go to a prison red build with Bridges and welders. I've had many games where I have bridge but struggle to get hellbent thanks to a well timed wasteland by my opponent
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    Top quality german restraint there.

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  13. #733
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @ LED- I have to say it hasn't felt as all in as many people are making it out to be. Yes sometimes activating it is basically placing your dick on the table and hoping the other player doesn't have a hammer. But most times you know the coast is clear and just need the mana. It isn't hard to ensure the sequencing is such that you have that window where protection isn't required as you have already depleted resources or forced them to tap out.

    LED also has a lot of upside and fringe uses. We need cheap artifacts to simply weld away at times. Having artifacts in the yard is sometimes better than hand, and the ability to dump your hand with Bridge in play can often just win the game.

    Monolith is a great card but I don't think this LED is all in, or Monolith builds to big turn is the only way we can look at it. For me LED is just better, but I am still using Copter and still find that to be my best play on turn one. For me I dont want to spend a turn just developing for the next turn without also doing something that will have an impact on the current board state. That is just me, and it is sort of the way that we designed Shortcake to flow. Its a little simplistic to say we only care about the combo, but it isn't wrong. All the cards we are working with where chosen to help fit that single goal. through filtering, damage dealing, and tutoring we are just working towards assembling Painter/Grindstone. Sometimes we never get that far as the other cards are able to just close out games. New Karn into Lattice reminds me of the old Blood Moon lines we use to have. But in the end the deck is just working on creating a small window to resolve and activate Grindstone. This simple line is what separates us from the old I Painter threads as they stayed mono red and worked in more prison elements. I am not sure how Monolith fits best within this framework. Due to the mana required to cast it and the the sequencing involved I am inclined to think that a card that powerful should be a 4 of. I do not think that is what Shortcake wants at this time, as our best turn one plays still remain Painter, Copter, Welder, or accelerated out Recruiter.

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  14. #734
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    @ Seasoned Pyromancer- It is DEF. not what Shortcake wants. Filtering is good, but Copter does it better and faster. The bodies aren't terrible, but seem too inconsistent to count on. Also at 3 mana, you need a large impact in the deck. Jaya was in old lists bc she was a swiss army knife that could fuck up all sorts of shitty positions for us. This creature cant do that and would be a poor Recruiter target. Maybe the mono red lists want this to improve consistency, but those are totally different decks.

    Sorry for the double posts, but I wanted to at least briefly address that question.

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  15. #735

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by drude1 View Post
    First, you may not have the Mana to cast Karn... again. What if you cast Karn with a Sol land and 2 petals? You may be exactly protecting yourself when you have to discard your hand.
    Again, read my previous post. I am getting LED if it wins me the game or protects Karn. I know how the game works and I understand board positions. But if I can turn 2 Karn into turn 3 lattice with an LED, there are game states where that is definitely the play. Also, discarding your hand becomes much less of a liability when engineer comes out, as you now have multiple ways to abuse your graveyard.
    I’m not questioning if you understand board positions or Magic. I’m sure you do. What I’m trying to understand, respectfully, is how one justifies a slot for either LED or Grim Monolith main or board. The chances of going T2 Karn into LED into Lattice unimpeded are fringe at best against someone having some measure of disruption, whether it’s Wasteland, a counter, or whatever.

    If the goal of retrieving LED is to power out Lattice the following turn, wouldn’t it make more sense to get Coating with whatever colorless resource you have and machine gun their lands starting turn three - which seems more realistic and far more effective against conditional counters? You can then grab Lattice thereafter.

    I see what the point of it is in the board to use if you’re short on mana. But you’re really getting it to land Lattice. This is why I run Coating: to avoid situations like that and go Crucible-Strip. It’s fine if you want to use it, I just don’t like it personally.
    Last edited by Michael Keller; 05-27-2019 at 08:39 PM.

  16. #736

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    So over the weekend, i had a chance to go for a small local legacy shindig. was ok, not great, but again, it's the pilot i think who's at fault more than the opposition. I think this is the kinda deck that really punishes bad play (my other deck being the most punishing against bad play!). For reference, 4 karn, 2 shamans, 2/1 liquimetals MB/SB, 3 welder, 3 copters, 3 E.tutor, 4/3 painter/grindstone, 1 LED, 3 petal and 1 SSG, i think it was.

    Anyways, I can say that for my play style, gorilla shaman/karn + liquimetal coating is great. Even if we're not planning to machine-gun lands away, just 'rishidan porting' some lands with karn out has been pretty good. locking out opponents off specific-coloured mana is pretty important against most decks, and this helps a lot.

    The toughest decision i think is the mulligan though. If there's decent turn 1 through 3 plays, it becomes a keeper for me. But i guess i need to learn more nuances to make it really sing.

    On the subject of LED, i run one main deck. Whenever i see it, i generally use it as a "ah-ha gotcha" win. sure i gotta discard my hand, but winning the game with a full grip or no cards in hand is the same to me.

    I had a lattice on the board, but i don't think i ever had a reasonable time to wish-cast it. I think the closest i came to it was by mising a LED, but i don't think it's good enough. It's also surprisingly fragile, if an opponent is able to float mana into it and abrade a critical piece and so on. And when the game gets long enough that it becomes castable, there are usually better things to do with that mana (like shaman-killing lands, grindstone activations, keeping mana up for blasts, and so on).

    So i get that liquimetal coating + karn and so on isn't the norm, but it is definitely strong. so strong that i'm tempted to go 3/1 split MB/SB with liquimetal. Having multiples in play is not bad either, and it becomes backbreaking with the shaman in play. I'm also planning to test a one-of viashino heretic as a recruiter target against non-0 cmc permanents that need answering. I get that explosives and blasts are there for that, but repeatable effects are so strong, it seems a bit silly to not test it at least.

    Also, i just saw the latest spoiler - ironically shifted academy ruins.

    land taps for colourless. or, 1W, tap, put an enchantment from the grave on top of the library.

    Aside from blood moons, is there any real use here for us?
    Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
    EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer

  17. #737
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by schweinefettmann View Post
    Also, i just saw the latest spoiler - ironically shifted academy ruins.

    land taps for colourless. or, 1W, tap, put an enchantment from the grave on top of the library.

    Aside from blood moons, is there any real use here for us?
    I think if we wanted a tech-land in Shortcake, we'd be playing Inventors' Fair.
    I feel like Shortcakes really doesn't rely on Moon like it did a few years ago. Other than that, we haven't really played other enchantments consistently for the past couple of years because they're sadly, just too slow.

    Also, forgot to post this here, even though I'm sure a few of you have seen it on the Discord:

    Post-WAR Shortcake










  18. #738
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    This weekend I finally got some thorough reps in. My primary conclusions were:
    • Karn is fantastic, but slow
    • 20 lands is nice, but it doesn't make us faster
    • 5 fast mana (excluding LED) is not enough to consistently have it in our opener or draw it in a timely fashion (maybe I just can't shuffle?)
    • Blood Moon continues to be very swingy: it is either fantastic or horrible in every matchup. 1 MD and 1 Magus in the SB is still correct IMO
    • Sideboard still needs work
    I'm waffling on the correct number of Canonist in the MD. After all, using it to force something through counterspells requires setting up which requires time and excess mana. If such a golden situation arises, I've found myself to be attempting to resolve Karn, which does not play nice with the Canonist + Blast plan. Perhaps Canonist and Karn should be considered mutually exclusive to some degree. I suspect 2 Canonist in the 75 is too slim, but it hasn't been relevant often. Maybe I have too few reps against Xerox decks or too few reps in general.
    I'm going to keep Karn at 4 and Canonist at 1 MD for now, and see how that setup performs with 19 land and 6 fast mana, as opposed to 20 and 5.

    I played against a lot of removal and found myself either itching for a 4th Welder (which I don't think we can fit in) or dying for more Welder fodder (which I don't know how to correct).
    I also still lost to Chalice an inordinate amount.

    Going forward, I'm going to try:
    19 Land
    4 Petal
    2 SSG
    3 Karn
    3 Copter
    1 LED
    4 Painter
    4 Recruiter
    3 Welder
    2 Canonist
    1 Cratermaker
    3 Enlightened Tutor
    3 Grindstone
    1 Bridge
    6 Blast
    1 Moon

    SB:
    2 Surgical
    1 TCrypt
    1 Relic
    3 Pyroclasm
    1 Magus
    1 Grindstone
    1 Bridge
    1 Lattice
    1 Canonist
    2 EE
    1 Pithing Needle

    Walking Ballista has never been good for me. Easy cut.
    I expect 2 EE to be spicy. 1 to board in, 1 to leave in the board to fetch with Karn. I'm looking forward to more reliably killing Chalice (lost to Chalice a lot despite Karn) and having extra sweeper effects.
    1 Revoker in the 75 would be great, but I don't know what to cut to fit it in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

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  19. #739

    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    Walking Ballista has never been good for me. Easy cut.
    I expect 2 EE to be spicy. 1 to board in, 1 to leave in the board to fetch with Karn. I'm looking forward to more reliably killing Chalice (lost to Chalice a lot despite Karn) and having extra sweeper effects.
    1 Revoker in the 75 would be great, but I don't know what to cut to fit it in.
    Karn kills Chalice by himself. Did you need two extra slots for that - main and board? If someone slams Chalice, and you land Karn, you kill Chalice immediately with him. Is the extra space worth it?

  20. #740
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    Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Karn kills Chalice by himself. Did you need two extra slots for that - main and board? If someone slams Chalice, and you land Karn, you kill Chalice immediately with him. Is the extra space worth it?
    Karn has a big target on his head. If I can't defend him, he becomes an enormous tempo drain (meaning the rest of the game plan is durdling in the meantime) just to kill one Chalice. And defending him is complex: what if I have Bridge but needed Blasts, or vice versa

    Also, Karn is slow. When I'm under pressure, I cannot afford to wait for Karn to come online. The classic sequence of ETutor in response to Chalice, get EE, next turn draw and slam EE on zero, pay 2 when desired is significantly faster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

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