Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Pauper Tortured Existence

  1. #1

    Pauper Tortured Existence

    24 Land
    4 Tortured Existence
    4 Commune with the Gods

    4 Putrid Leech
    3 Golgari Brownscale
    2 Grave Scrabbler
    2 Crypt Rats
    2 Stinkweed Imp
    2 Fume Spitter
    2 Carrion Feeder
    2 Spore Frog
    1 Augur of Skulls
    1 Thorn of the Black Rose
    1 Penumbra Spider
    1 Tilling Treefolk
    1 Wickerbough Elder
    1 Black Cat
    1 2-mana land guy (Sakura Tribe Elder, Satyr Wayfinder etc, Possibly Krosan Tusker)
    1 Frightcrawler
    1 Horror of the Broken Lands

    My first attempt at this format
    Tortured Existence is considered a well-known fringe strategy (I think)

    It seems strong vs other Control/Midrange decks and you have SB tools to beat combo
    Aggro (e.g. Slivers) seems like the main weakness because the deck is extremely light on removal, so your main hope is that you can get the Spore Frog lock going and then kill the opp before they can break out of it

    A comment on some unusual card choices

    - I think it's relatively uncommon for this deck to play all 4 Putrid Leech, but it's the best GB 2-drop and it's good at both attacking and blocking. It helps to be able to switch between aggro/control when necessary and also it's important to have a certain density of solid cards that aren't situational or dependent on Tortured Existence (or dependent on the Graveyard, in post SB games).
    - Carrion Feeder helps reinforce the attacking plan. It lets you maintain a threat on the board after activating Crypt Rats. It lets you keep Recycling Grave Scrabblers (I used to play 1 Scrabbler 1 Sanitarium Skeleton, but I went to 2 Scrabbler and added 2 Carrion Feeder because Scrabbler is a way better rate if you can reliably put it back in the graveyard). It's also good with Penumbra Spider, 'protecting' it from Vapor Snag, and lets you recycle the spider every turn to flood the board with 2/4s (Delver can't beat this).
    - Black Cat combos with Carrion Feeder in midrange/control matchups. If your opponent is Hellbent then you can recycle Black Cat every turn and sac it to Carrion Feeder in their draw step. The opponent won't be able to draw a card for the rest of the game.
    - Often because of your defensive creatures (Stinkweed Imp, Penumbra Spider) or the Spore Frog lock, games progress to huge boardstalls where nobody can profitably attack. You can sometimes bust these with Crypt Rats but vs e.g. Bogles their creatures are often too large. Against the RW control deck it is also important to be able to hit them through blockers and become the monarch. For this reason I have liked having some kind of evasive attacker and Frightcrawler seems like a solid choice as a 2 mana 3/3 Fear.

    The thing I have no idea about is the manabase.
    I think you want at least 2 Rot Farm because they are just decent cards in a format that is a bit slower, and they are nice to get back in the mid-late game with Tilling Treefolk (it's like returning 3 lands rather than 2). But I don't know if all 4 is correct.
    There are also 3 different CIPT GB lands (Foul Orchard, Jungle Hollow, Golgari Guildgate) and I am not sure how many of these to play either.
    Evolving Wilds is also an option, but it seems probably (?) worse than the CIPT lands seeing as I am only playing 2 colors, unless I really care about the Tilling Treefolk value.
    I have even seen some lists with Cycling lands (Barren Moor).
    All I do know is that I don't want to play too many Basic Forests because being bottlenecked on Tortured Existence activations sucks and they are also bad with Crypt Rats

    One other card that seems almost too good (but that I haven't seen anybody use) is Fa'adiyah Seer. If you replace the draw with a dredge then you don't have to discard anything, so rather than being a weird Merfolk Looter it's more like Archivist for 2 mana.
    But I don't know what to cut for it (Possibly it goes in the Satyr Wayfinder slot).

  2. #2

    Re: Pauper Tortured Existence

    It's pretty exciting to see another Tortured Existence list floating around. Ever since the MTGO policy change regarding Pauper queues, this format has been a little difficult to follow.

    Anyway, you have some... unconventional card choices. Of course, Pauper lists are hugely predicated by whatever metagame they play in. Here's my current list:

    8 Swamp
    3 Forest
    3 Golgari Rot Farm
    4 Jungle Hollow
    4 Desert

    1 Fume Spitter
    1 Thoughtpicker Witch
    3 Crypt Rats
    3 Stinkweed Imp
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Heartstabber Mosquito
    1 Caustic Caterpillar
    1 Spore Frog
    4 Satyr Wayfinder
    4 Tilling Treefolk
    2 Golgari Brownscale
    1 Mold Shambler
    2 Krosan Tusker

    3 Raven's Crime
    4 Tortured Existence
    2 Syphon Life
    4 Commune with the Gods

    Sideboard:
    2 Augur of Skulls
    2 Faerie Macabre
    3 Spore Frog
    3 Caustic Caterpillar
    3 Gnaw to the Bone
    2 Mold Shambler

    As you said, aggro can be tough, but they are easier to keep in check once the soft lock is established. Goblins are especially hard to deal with due to the speed of the list. Second and third games get a bit easier thanks to bolstering the life gain/fog plan. This list is geared more towards control and combo which can run away with the game - hence, lots of hand control.

    I think Satyr Wayfinder and Tilling Treefolk are the best creatures in the deck, especially since they help to fuel the Retrace plan. You mentioned board states being locked up - I suggest Syphon Life to provide inevitability.

    I also think Putrid Leech is good but I was attempting to overwhelm the other deck with sheer synergy and Leech really only beats for a lot.

    Grave Scrabbler always felt semi-redundant because Tortured Existence does it cheaper and is repeatable, but they are quite the value engine when combined.

    I think your list looks solid. Unfortunately, it's such a subjective thing due to what metagame you play in that I can really only dump my list here and hope that it gives you some ideas.

  3. #3

    Re: Pauper Tortured Existence

    Hi, thanks for the reply

    None of the lists I looked at played Syphon Life. One of them did have a single copy of Raven's Crime and played 2 Treefolk.
    Frightcrawler seems better than Syphon Life in my opinion because it can apply 3-damage-a-turn pressure without costing you any mana or cards.

    It's possible that I have the wrong read on the format and I should just start with -4 Putrid Leech +4 Satyr Wayfinder. My impression seems to be that the Tortured Existence plan dominates most lategame situations with minimal support so I would rather play more strong standalone cards but it's possible that either
    a) Putrid Leech isn't powerful enough on its own for this to make sense
    b) Wayfinder is actually necessary to 'get the ball rolling' and provide earlygame consistency

    It's possible that your ratio on Stinkweed/Brownscale is right
    My thought process was to play 3 Brownscale because it actually does something in multiples but having more reliable access to dredge 5 might be more important.

    Mold Shambler is a solid idea, could easily replace the Wickerbough slot

    The point of Grave Scrabbler isn't to be extra copies of Tortured Existence; without Tortured Existence in play it doesn't even do anything (if it can't be discarded then it's a 4 mana 2/2 vanilla). With no Grave Scrabbler in the deck (or a similar card like Sanitarium Skeleton) then it's not possible to actually gain card advantage from Tortured Existence. It's only a free Worldly Tutor every turn. You have Tilling Treefolk or Krosan Tusker (creatures that provide card advantage by themselves), but these only find lands. The lands can be traded with the opponent's resources via Raven's Crime, but this requires jumping through a lot of hoops and doesn't help at all if you're behind on the board.

    This is why I find Thoughtpicker Witch in your list extremely odd, because you don't have any way to get free creatures. You can only get 1 creature per turn from your draw step, then hardcast it and sac it to Thoughtpicker. Even if it is a Tilling Treefolk and you get 2 lands back is this really good enough? I guess if the opponent has nothing in hand and nothing in play then maybe this is the perfect situation and you just win by attacking with a couple of 1/1 for 10 turns, but if the opponent really has no cards whatsoever can't you just kill them with e.g. Putrid Leech in a few turns and hope they don't topdeck anything? In a close midgame situation Thoughtpicker Witch can't e.g. trade with Ninja of the Deep Hours... (Just an example of a point which illustrates my thought process)

    I put 1 Heartstabber in my sideboard but even there I don't know if it's worth it; the only thing I want to kill with it is Ulamog's Crusher. Is there another reason to play this? All other big creatures (like a huge Heroic guy for example) you can just fog, and if you have the mana to kill e.g. a Delver with the Mosquito you're probably in a winning situation anyway.

    I play Faerie Macabre SB, I think it's probably too narrow to maindeck but I don't hate that decision

    The biggest issue I have with this list is the package of 4 Treefolk 2 Syphon Life and 3 Raven's Crime. Syphon Life seems totally redundant in this deck because if you need to gain life you have Brownscale and if you want to pay a lot of mana to burn your opponent out over several turns you can do it with Crypt Rats. Raven's Crime doesn't seem like a good card in this deck. The rest of the deck are individually weak cards, and the payoff is combining multiple together, so it doesn't seem like you want to trade resources with the opponent. In the lategame when you have infinite lands to discard then I suppose it's fine but it doesn't help you _get_ to the lategame and it doesn't help you stabilize. Both of these cards aren't creatures so in any situation where they are bad draws you can't even use Tortured Existence to cycle them away. If you really like the Raven's Crime element of the deck then what's the argument for not playing some number of Augur of Skulls instead?

    Treefolk is a good card but only in the lategame when you have already got your dredge engine online; at that point you will have seen like half your deck so do you really need to play 4 copies of it?

    4 Desert is a very interesting idea that was totally off my radar, but is it good against any deck other than Delver? (Helps to justify 4 Treefolk if so). Lands not tapping for black mana is a real drawback for this deck imo

  4. #4

    Re: Pauper Tortured Existence

    I like your thought process here. I went pretty hard on the retrace plan because Raven's Crime is actually quite good. It gives you early game disruption and a soft lock late game. Of course, I've been playing it in nearly every iteration of this deck so I might be a bit blind to its downside. Maybe I'll cut the package and run a dozen games without it. I think you are correct about Syphon Life - it represents a swing of 4 life per activation against aggro decks, but it is definitely a late game card that doesn't really affect the board.

    I think Leech is good, but Wayfinder is at the very least card parity with a body attached and often a kickstart for Tortured Existence shenanigans. I wish I could play more. I've found the deck can fall a bit flat if you're not able to load up your graveyard quickly.

    I only run two Brownscale because that's the minimum to abuse the life gain with TE. I don't think there's a wrong answer here.

    Thoughtpicker Witch is a sac outlet with some upside. It used to be Carrion Feeder but I wanted something that interacted with my opponent more.

    Heartstabber is for Ulamog's Crusher, yes, absolutely. That card is ridiculous and this is a slow, permanent-heavy deck. I may need more answers. Crusher is a beating.

    As for your last point, yes the list is redundant but it's been fairly consistent. I know it looks like a pile, and I really have no defense other than, "it seems to work." I like your suggestions, I like talking about this deck. Grave Scrabbler is a solid card I took out but needs to come back in. I don't know if there is a definitive Tortured Existence list since it's kind of a metagame predator.

    Thanks for sharing, I appreciate the insight.

  5. #5

    Re: Pauper Tortured Existence

    Faceless Butcher is also an option instead of the Mosquito if you have sac outlets
    Apparently Desert isn't actually legal in the format (based on the MODO legality), so if Desert is legal then are you playing a format where e.g. Hymn is legal as well? What banlist is this for

  6. #6

    Re: Pauper Tortured Existence

    Desert is not legal online - it is a common in Arabian Nights. I think you can probably switch it for Quicksand if you want a similar effect.

    I like Faceless Butcher. It seems better when we have a board presence, but worse off the top when we are behind, and we really don't ever want to be behind in the game.

    The list is built for and plays in a ban-less paper setting. Things like 8-post, High Tide, Affinity with Cranial Plating, Hymn to Tourach, Goblins, Turbo-Fog, Hexproof, Storm, etc. It's not amazing, but it does hold up well enough.

  7. #7

    Re: Pauper Tortured Existence

    Played 3 rounds tonight and went 0-3
    RW Monarch 0-2
    Monoblack Midrange 0-2
    BR Reanimator 1-2

    In the first 4 games I never had a Tortured Existence in my hand even one time and the games (especially against RW) just felt like a massive uphill battle, I think it may be worth trying to cut even more of the 'tricks'
    - Carrion Feeder was relatively disappointing, it is difficult to get aggressive with it because you don't have many 'free' creatures until the lategame
    - Black cat (or any similar card e.g. Mesmeric Fiend) would be much more appealing if it had 2 or more power
    - The maindeck artifact/enchantment hate card slot might not be worth it,but I think 2 Frog is still fine/desirable
    - Fume spitter might be too 'fair'; subpar vs anything that's not Delver/Tribe
    - Fa'adiyah Seer was about as good as I thought it would be, i.e. pretty good (Even in these games, where I didn't get the 'combo' off with Dredge + Tortured Existence)

    - If you don't draw Tortured Existence then Putrid Leech is the best card
    - I want to know what the next best Putrid Leech is; Moldgraf Scavenger is possibly too hard to activate, otherwise it probably is just something like Frightcrawler or Sinuous Vermin, which is disappointing
    - Therefore, rather than try to 'Jund people out' by only Tarmogoyfing them, maybe Liliana is the way to go? Rotting Rats is a card that I seriously want to try, because:
    1. Even though Ravenous Rats is 'better' on face value, you often have e.g. excess Brownscales or Tortured Existences you don't want to cast, so discarding 1 isn't much of a downside
    2. Ravenous Rats is another enabler for Grave Scrabbler, which is otherwise one of the cards that bricks your draws when Existence isn't in play (there was a point in the game where I was even attempting to use Grave Scrabbler by discarding it to hand size).
    3. The unearth is a 'free body' which is good with Carrion Feeder
    4. Unlike Chittering Rats or Ravenous Rats, 1 Rotting Rats can make the opponent discard 2 cards. Yes this costs 2 cards for you, but in this kind of highly simplified game state a medium-sized Carrion Feeder or Putrid Leech can be very hard to deal with

    But it wouldn't surprise me if Carrion Feeder is totally wrong, and then a significant argument for playing Rotting Rats is gone
    I'm not sure if there are any other good creatures that make you discard (not a fan of Wild Mongrel)

  8. #8
    Play Deed. Nuke the World.
    EpicLevelCommoner's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Posts

    321

    Try the following Abzan list:

    4 Tortured Existence
    3 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Golgari Brownscale
    4 Commune with the Gods
    4 Vessel of Nascency
    2 Auramancer
    3 Crypt Rats
    1 Obsidian Acolyte
    4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    4 Gatecreeper Vine
    4 Spore Frog
    2 Grim Harvest
    7 Swamp
    4 Forest
    1 Plains
    4 Jungle Hollow
    4 Golgari Guildgate
    1 Scoured Barrens
    1 Orzhov Guildgate

    Still working in the sideboard, but the synergy between acolyte and rats is nifty. I opt for Vessel over Satyr since Vessel can chain into itself and grab practically anything in the deck including TE

  9. #9

    Re: Pauper Tortured Existence

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner View Post
    Try the following Abzan list:

    4 Tortured Existence
    3 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Golgari Brownscale
    4 Commune with the Gods
    4 Vessel of Nascency
    2 Auramancer
    3 Crypt Rats
    1 Obsidian Acolyte
    4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    4 Gatecreeper Vine
    4 Spore Frog
    2 Grim Harvest
    7 Swamp
    4 Forest
    1 Plains
    4 Jungle Hollow
    4 Golgari Guildgate
    1 Scoured Barrens
    1 Orzhov Guildgate

    Still working in the sideboard, but the synergy between acolyte and rats is nifty. I opt for Vessel over Satyr since Vessel can chain into itself and grab practically anything in the deck including TE
    Why would you not play Satyr Wayfinder over STE or Vine if you have Auramancer in the deck
    Obsidian is too cute imo, if you want a white creature that doesn't die to Crypt Rats then you can just play Guardian of the Guildpact, and if it's for the softlock of Rats not killing itself I don't think it's needed

    If this list is good then I guess the lesson is that being literally unable to win without Tortured Existence is fine if you have 4 more cards to find it
    I wonder if just playing 1-2 Undertaker would be a good idea
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 04-08-2018 at 07:57 AM.

  10. #10
    Play Deed. Nuke the World.
    EpicLevelCommoner's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Posts

    321

    I had a friend who tried some number of Undertaker in addition to 4 TE, and yes it worked well for him.

    Anyhow, the reason I don't run Satyr is because before you get TE it risks binning TEs you would get into the yard. Sure, it does fuel the yard, but so do dredge creatures. And recurring STE with TE also gets a chump-blocker that will ramp you each turn.

  11. #11

    Re: Pauper Tortured Existence

    I had a friend who tried some number of Undertaker in addition to 4 TE, and yes it worked well for him.
    Cool, I might try this then

    Anyhow, the reason I don't run Satyr is because before you get TE it risks binning TEs you would get into the yard
    Isn't this why you run Auramancer? Additionally, while hitting TE with Satyr is not ideal, it is balanced by the possibility of hitting 4 non-TE cards with Satyr, which then increases the chances of you drawing TE. I know milling TE when you don't have it is a feel-bad but I'm pretty sure the math doesn't agree with you on this one

    recurring STE with TE also gets a chump-blocker that will ramp you each turn
    If you're dredging every turn to give yourself a blocker then you aren't drawing lands so Sakura Tribe Elder is functionally identical to Sylvan Ranger / Wayfinder / Vine at that point

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)