I just wanted to chime in on this part of your post Acclimation. For me it's not just that this deck is fun, complex, and exciting. I've played plenty of silly and neat Legacy piles that checked those boxes. But with Bizarro, I've learned that Shallow Graving Magus of the Mind and Entombing for Past in Flames are two STUPID powerful individual interactions/concepts in Legacy. So while we may not yet have the perfect 75 to exploit them, the raw power is there. Just needs to be figured out.
I think people forget why they started playing this game in the first place- it's FUN. I can understand people who only derive pleasure from pure win %, but even then, with a million other games in the world, odds are people didn't start playing this because they thought they could win all the time. Fun+Powerful- that's where we're at here.
I think we're on the right track for finding a shell for those interactions, but I think that the main thing keeping the deck from taking off is DRS. Not because it eats our GY, but because of how strong that 1 card is, it's warping other decks to play it. DRS+loads of countermagic is an incredibly strong backbone for a deck, and that's why Delver variants have such a large meta share. Sure, Delver is similarly format warping, but given how there's plenty of decks that run a DRS shell and don't run Delver, i'm less inclined to hate on it, but I digress.
Entomb+PiF and Shallow Grave+Magus are very busted interactions. I'm unsure if there's a stronger build out there for both of these, as I'm really enjoying the main deck, but trying to find a sideboard plan that works has been challenging.
I think I have some ideas that I haven't put on paper yet after thinking about the stream from earlier. Not sure if they're good, but it's something.
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
One of my friends just picked up a custom playmat, which made me think about getting a sealab 2021 one. Does anybody have any high-res art from the show, or recommendations for a scene I could pull a good playmat from?
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/262708600
But only if you are a subscriber. Maybe we'll get a youtube upload sometime.
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
I think this week I'm going to try a chrome mox and 13 lands. I've been finding initial mana sources are a bit of a bottleneck sometimes.
I've started running leagues with Bizarro. Last night was the first. Went a mediocre 3-2, but at least we cashed.
Beat Miracles 2-0
Beat ANT 2-1
Lost to Grixis Delver 0-2
Lost to DnT 1-2
Beat DnT 2-0
Opened my treasure chest and got a Liliana, the Last Hope, which was good for 31 cold, hard tixxxxx
List here.
I don't get this. How is the 4th LED not better than the 1st Chrome Mox? You can crack in between draws with Griselbrand.
Also, it's not in this thread (reference the Tin Fins thread somewhere), Acclimation and I did some data gathering on a thousand or so goldfish hands with and without Chrome Mox and found that the fizzle rate difference was somewhere around 1% if I recall correctly. I can't see how it's worth cutting another card for that kind of difference, particularly when we're already running LED and Past in Flames, which should make that difference even less.
Double checked the sheet we had. Ended up being something like a 1% difference in fizzle rate between the Chrome Mox lists and non Chrome Mox lists, and a 2% difference in fizzle rate due to being unable to find an IMS. It also had a slight advantage on combo turns, as the Chrome Mox list had a higher t1+t2 rate by 2 games.
When it comes to raw goldfishing, Chrome Mox was marginally better, but things like Ponder, Discard, LDV end up being better in real games over the Mox.
The issue isn't fizzling, because it's pretty low rate and marginally different between the 2 styles, it's actually getting to the point where you can actually combo off versus an opponent. It's a bit harder to quantify as a number, but the gains in resiliency are much more meaningful than being 1% less likely to fizzle versus the goldfish.
Pivoting this back to Bizarro's deck construction, we (or at least, most of us) have 3 LED and 2 Cabal Ritual alongside 4 Petal and 4 Dark Ritual. Already we are doing better on the IMS front. LED is a bit harder to play with as an IMS, but in a deck with PiF, discarding your hand is much more synergistic than exiling a card (even if most of the time you're dumping a spare cantrip or discard spell). This deck rewards stopping after every draw 7 to evaluate the situation. Sometimes that means cracking an LED and drawing another 7 blind. One of these days, we'll probably do a similar jam of goldfish games to quantify fizzle rates, but after 5 months of playing this list at 58/60 of similar cards, I feel comfortable to anecdotally (grain of salt as anecdotes aren't datas) say that the fizzle rate feels much lower.
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
The past two weeks, I played cute shit and went 2-2 both weeks. Enough, I say! I would not recommend Quicken over a Ponder - although I did cast Tendrils in the attack step with a lethal Griselbrand once. I would not recommend Emrakul over a Griselbrand - although I did cast Emrakul before casting a lethal Tendrils. And Hull Breach was cute but too hard to cast. Most of the games I'm losing, I only have a couple of mana sources, so being able to cast Breach and go off is unlikely.
As part of the cute shit testing, I cut the Mastermind's Acquisition from the main in favor of a Tendrils, and more lines came up where I could have won if I had a bad tutor (2) versus natural storm or a PiF line that wouldn't be possible without Tendrils main (0).
So... my testing taught me nothing except that my list is perfect.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
@phazonmutant, I've found that Mastermind's gives us just enough flexibility over Tendrils to favor it in the main.
Sometimes "bad tutor" is good enough.
In my league (g3) last night, I had a line against ANT where Mastermind's was crucial.
He Duressed me (after a ton of back & forth), saw my hand was Corpse Dance, Griselbrand, Dark Ritual, Mastermind's Acquisition, took my Dark Rit and passed.
I assume I'm dead next turn, since he took a card to slow me down and not a payoff.
I rip another Dark Rit off the top (USea x2 and Badlands in play). Tap Badlands to cast Dark Rit and then a USea for Mastermind's, using it to Diabolic Tutor for Flusterstorm (with a USea up). I wanted to make it seem as though I was setting up for an end-step Entomb to go off the following turn.
He ends up going for it, cracking an LED to cast Past In Flames out of the yard (thankfully with no discard preceding) which I promptly Fluster.
I eventually go off 2 turns later and win.
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
Sweet, nice line. I like playing the control in the combo mirror with ANT and TinFins.
Re: Chrome Mox: I don't really get why. It's great in TES for Ad Naus, but you can't crack LED in the middle of resolving it, unlike Grisel. And it's great for producing more initial mana sources, and that deck is hella greedy with its colors. If you're playing a couple Empties in the sideboard, I could see playing it.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I'm not playing it over the fourth LED though, I'm playing it over the fourteenth land. They play different roles.
When you're going off LED may be a bit better, but in all the turns before that, mox does more. There are plenty of opening hands where a LED is dead until you go off, but mox will act as a land to cast cantrips, entomb, etc.
Originally, we were testing fizzle rates of Chrome Mox builds against non Chrome Mox builds because we were curious if having an extra land (from 14 to 15 lands was what I was doing) to support JVP+Mentor. We ended up liking 15 lands with SB Mentor quite a bit, and it stuck for awhile until we ended up back at 14 lands for Unmask builds.
I think that 14th land is going to be better than 1st Mox, as Land also can cast cantrips, entombs, and so on, as well as make mulligans a bit better.
You can definitely try 13+chrome, but I'm not convinced that it's better than 14 lands. Between Corpse Dance costing 3 mana, needing an extra mana to activate Magus, and wanting to cast 4 mana spells occasionally (PiF+MA/DP), having more 1 more land is probably better.
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
What would you guys side against pile?
I'm thinking for sure the gravestones/ground seals, but I'm not sure if I should be bringing in something like abrupt decay for leovold, or just hope I can make them discard it/win before they cast it/win through it with magus.
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