Originally Posted by KnittedSoup
SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK!
Great job, I would love to read a report, as well as any thoughts you had on match-ups and card slots (especially sb slots, since we're in a weird rut with those).
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
Okay. Tournament report. Please note that I didn't take notes during the event so I may be a little off with some of it. Most of the boarding is guesswork so it's probably not even close.
Rd 1 - 4c Delver
I'm mates with my round 1 opponent and he knows what I'm on. We were discussing the deck before the event and he was pretty keen to see it go off.
Game 1 - I won rock paper scissors and look at the opening hand. We have the turn 1. My opponent said something about playing as if he didn't know what I was on so I go for it. I check his hand at some point mid combo and it had a daze and deathrite but no force. A reasonable keep on the blind. Standard draw 21 off Griseldad then reanimate magus 3 times to cast the whole deck.
-1 Ponder
-1 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Cabal Ritual
+2 Carpet of Flowers
+2 Silent Gravestone
Game 2 - Things don't line up nicely here. Multiple deathrites and a gurmag to back up the clock. I think there ended up being multiple counterspells and I could never get a creature on board. Standard delver things.
Game 3 - My opponent has an early delver and infinite countermagic. I try to jam through it and he shuts me down multiple times. On turn 4 I play land, petal, dark ritual, cabal ritual and play Griselbrand and he has the force. We are now both hellbent. On my next turn I rip a shallow grave. Jam it and he didn't have interaction. I can only afford to draw 7 which isn't enough to get there but gets me more reanimation. He holds his delver back to block so he isn't dead and I draw another 7. Then he doesn't have a flier the following turn and we get there. 1-0.
Round 2 - Infect
I know my opponent plays infect but I am pretty sure he doesn't know what I'm on.
Game 1 - Won the dice roll. I have a turn 1 hand with no interaction. Go for it. My opponent had a daze hand that contained glistener elf, invigorate and beserk. Too slow. Drew 21 with Griselbrand but didn't find the win. Went on the plan of attack with the big boy 3 times to avoid showing the storm kill. Stripped his hand and got there after 4 attacks. (He crop rotationed for an Inkmoth nexus to block at one point.)
-1 Ponder
-1 Probe
-1 Cabal Ritual
+1 Silent Gravestone
+2 Xantid Swarm
Game 2 - Don't remember particularly much about this game. I think he played multiple hierarchs and I ended up going full combo at some point after getting to therapy 2 force of wills. 2-0.
Round 3 - Czech Pile
Playing against another mate lovingly known as "super draws". I know what he is on but he isn't sure what I am on. At the start of the match we had a chat where he was saying that he wasn't sure whether he was expecting miracles, dnt, sns or some random pile.
Game 1 - Won the dice roll. Kept a pretty solid hand. Turn 1 underground sea ponder. He jams a deathrite. I therapy his force and then go off and play significantly more than ten drills.
-1 Ponder
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Probe
-1 Thoughtseize
+2 Silent Gravestone
+1 Xantid Swarm
+1 Carpet of Flowers
Game 2 - I kept a slow hand with both griselbrand and magus in hand. I do have an LED as a discard outlet though. He jams turn 1 deathrite into turn 2 deathrite hold up blue while I ponder and shuffle. Miss land drop on turn 2 which isn't great and pass it back. He plays a third deathrite but doesn't have green available to really destroy me. I start to see the line of draw any mana source and I can shallow grave, hold priority, then crack LED to put 2 dudes in the bin and just get there. He attacks with one of the deathrites which afterwards he acknowledged as a huge mistake. I draw a fetch off the top crack it and play a dark ritual. He flusterstorms. Play a second dark ritual and therapy him to name force. He had a snapcaster but because he had missed land drop and attacked with drs couldnt snap the fluster. Shallow grave shenanigans. Get there. 3-0.
Round 4 - Miracles
Playing against one of (in my opinion) the better control players in melbourne and we each know what the other is on.
Game 1 - I probe him early and see force x2 plus a portent and I can't get through it that turn. He played the portent and resolved it as a brainstorm which we only realised after he was finished putting 2 cards back so we called a judge. The fix was that I got to see his hand and we reconstructed it based on known information and I effectively got to decide (from the 4 new cards) which card he drew that turn and the top 3. There were 2 blue cards in the 4 so I only gave him 1 then went off on my turn as he didn't have double force up.
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Probe
-1 Ponder
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Carpet of Flowers
+2 Xantid Swarm
+1 Tendrils of Agony
+1 Silent Gravestone
Game 2 - I kept a slightly awkward hand and probed to see multiple pieces of interaction. I decided to try to build up my hand before going for it. I ended up resolving a carpet of flowers into a Xantid Swarm but he was slowly getting in with a mentor. He unexpectedly absented my Swarm and I had to replay it. He attacked in with a mentor and a vendilion clique. I knew he had a fluster in hand that I still couldn't beat and if I didn't block I went to 8 so I took the hit. He played a jace and fatesealed me. Drew a land which gave me enough to hardcast griselbrand and draw 7 after attacking with swarm but couldn't find any action and scooped it up.
Game 3 - Had a fast hand with discard to get through his counters. Just get there. 4-0.
Round 5 - Miracles
I don't know my opponent but I had seen he was also on miracles. When we get to the table he asks if I want to ID so he can go get lunch. I don't really want to play the matchup again so I'm happy to do so. 4-0-1.
Round 6 - Storm
I don't know my opponent for this round either but again I had seen him playing earlier so knew he was on storm. The matchup seems very favourable given that we have a faster clock than them. When the pairing initially went up he asked to ID and I said sure because I was happy to have a storm deck in the top 8. Then there was a re-pair and it was the same matchup. I had a think and realised that if I ID'd then I would be 4th in the standings, whereas if I jammed and won I would be top and if I lost I would be 7th. Given that it's a positive matchup I made him jam so that I could be top seed.
Game 1 - Won the dice roll. Turn 1 jam with no backup because its storm and they don't have interaction.
-1 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Cabal Ritual
+1 Tendrils of Agony
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Silent Gravestone
Game 2 - Probe him to see a hand with a lot of discard. He plays a duress turn 1. I rip a therapy to take both of his therapies. The game stalls for a bit and we eventually find an entomb for Past in Flames line where the mana works out nicely and we get there. 5-0-1.
Top 8
1 - Bizarro Stormy (Your intrepid hero)
2 - Miracles (The guy I ID'd with in round 5)
3 - Czech Pile (Superdraws)
4 - Miracles (The guy from 4)
5 - Elves
6 - DnT
7 - Turbo Depths
8 - ANT (The guy from round 6)
Top 8 - Storm
Happy that this guy made top 8.
Game 1 - Had a decent hand which he duressed and I think I just got there turn 2 anyway.
Game 2 - I had a turn 2 hand. So did he. At least we get to be on the play in game 3.
Game 3 - The game stalled out after we both attacked the others hands for a bit in the early turns. I drew a silent grave before he drew anything and got there.
This is where things didn't really work out how I wanted them to. All of the top 4 won their matches so the rest of the top 4 was force of will decks.
Top 4 - Miracles
Game 1 - Played through a force to get there reasonably quickly.
Game 2 - My opponent plays land go. I probe and see force of will, fluster, ethersworn canonist, mentor, brainstorm and two lands. I pass turn and he jams the canonist and I can't play through it.
Game 3 - My opening hand is somewhat questionable. It was something like Swamp, Lotus Petal, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, Shallow Grave x2, Dark Ritual. I remember turn 1 probing twice and seeing a bunch of countermagic while drawing into 2 more reanimate spells. Petal brainstorm into more reanimation spells and no second land. Couldn't get out of the brainstorm lock and he had a mentor on the board with a lot of backup before I saw a relevant card.
My opponent then lost the finals in the miracles mirror because he wasn't running red and his opponent was.
I think I need a lot more practice with the deck to work out a better sideboarding plan. I also want to do some tweaking with the sideboard as most of it wasn't touched all day.
Overall though, this was the most fun I have had playing legacy in years and this is probably my go to deck for the foreseeable future. Hopefully I can continue to put up results for you guys.
Sick performance KnittedSoup! Can you share a little bit of your experience with Mastermind's Acquisition?
Acquisition seemed fine. There wasn't a point where I played it for anything other than tendrils out of board though. So it's a little hard to say. Going forward I'm going to test just running tendrils in the slot.
On another note, what are peoples thoughts on running defense grid? I think it would really suit the plan.
Nice, that's what I was wondering. The list I have put together right now is the same as yours but has the Tendrils over Acquisition (and shaves the thoughtseize for a fourth ponder, which could well be wrong) but so far I haven't played against anything other than the goldfish. Will be trying to take the deck out to actually play this month and am going to try a green board initially too.
Excellent tournament report KnittedSoup! I've been testing a green splash in paper as well, and the while Acquisition is solid and enables some corner case lines, I'm going to start taking notes on times where Tendrils main would have been equivalent or better. I've got a couple local buds who are eager to help me test the deck in paper and on modo.
I whiffed on top4 at a small win-almost-a-dual event this weekend with Canadian Thresh, so I jammed some Bizarro vs. BUG Delver with my friend who had dropped earlier, while our third went to win it all with Reanimator. I won 4/5 games we played, punching through Force and Daze a couple times, Hymn once, and brutalizing a DRS.
I do want to pose a question here though. The deck operates on a more Storm-esque axis than a Reanimator one, and sideboards (especially the green versions) reflect that. What I'm waffling on is what to include for anti-hatebear tools. Is it fine to throw in a couple Massacre and call it a day? Is it better to include a couple Fatal Push since we usually only need to beat one bear and it still kills Teeg? Do we not need more than one of either with Decay in the board? Currently I'm on 2 Decay 2 Push in the slots and it's been decent.
I just wanted to stop lurking and say that this thread has been fantastic so far. As a former Doomsday player recently returning to Magic - this deck does all of the things that I am wanting to do in Legacy.I hope to contribute more to the topic.
-L
I've been considering Grid for the next serious build that I try. I think Carpet is likely a bit better, so if you're running Green, I would just go with that, whereas Grid is better in nongreen builds as a method of shutting down most interaction on your turn.
Carpet, Grid, and Silence (to me) fall under the umbrella of anti-counter magic tools. You really only need one of these options, as the slots are tight to cut for SB card. Carpet is probably the most powerful in a vacuum, since it let's us plow through soft counters and/or gives us extra mana to combo off. Grid has about 1 turn before opponents can just pay 3 for their Forces and Surgicals, and 2 before Fluster and Pierce come back online, so it gives us a narrow window to make action happen. Silence functions as a lightning rod for countermagic, and if you run into opponents that only have Surgical/Stifle/Mindbreak as their reactive spells, it can be much more game winning than Grid, not to mention the utility versus storm decks.
I think Grid is good, but probably not as good as Carpet, and on par with Silence (ranking the utility against storm pretty highly).
I'm running 2 Massacre in my SB, because it hits every hatebear except for Teeg, Eidolon of Rhetoric, and Knight of the Reliquary. In my experience, if you don't have a quick combo, you get hated on by multiple bears, so the board wipe is solid. Since CoBru can nuke hatebears, I don't see the need to run any extra spot removal. However, Push, Swords to Plowshares, Rending Volley (for heavier red splashes and if your meta has a lot more Meddling Mage and Leovold), and Sudden Shock (if you find Maverick to be an issue because of Mom defending Teeg) are all fine SB options if you find yourself wanting other options.
To answer both questions, my sideboards for this deck start like this:
3 Silent Gravestone (Easily the best protection spell)
2 Chain of Vapor (General answer for damn near every permanent hate, and random storm generator and Marit Lage answer)
2 Massacre (I really hate losing to Death & Taxes and the deck is pretty popular in the Midwest)
8 slots, pick some number of the following based on personal preference, splash color, and meta considerations:
2-3 Silence/Defense Grid/Carpet of Flowers (see above paragraph)
2-3 Serenity/Abrupt Decay (Hate for chalice and other artifacts/enchantments)
0-2 Hurkyl's Recall (When Chalice is really popular)
0-1 Echoing Truth (Extra bounce never hurt anyone)
0-2 Surgical Extraction (haven't ran it yet, but if you have a Reanimator heavy meta that doesn't get hosed by Silent Gravestone, it's worth running)
0-1 Tendrils of Agony (if MA is main)
0-1 Phyrexian Arena (Good against discard decks, but Leovold just turns this into a Curse of the Pierced Heart, so beware)
0-1 Splash land (Trop/Scrubland/Basic land/Bayou)
0-2 Fatal Push/Swords to Plowshares/Rending Volley/Sudden Shock (spot removal, see above paragraph)
0-2 Flusterstorm (some people like it)
0-1 Disenchant (Random chalice/Leyline/3ball value)
0-2 Night's Whisper (similar to Arena, use against discard decks to dig out of topdeck mode faster)
As I've mentioned multiple times, and as some of you are finding out, sideboard with this deck is pretty hard, and over half of the sideboard doesn't get touched, so beyond Gravestone and Chain of Vapor, run whatever you want. It's very likely correct to figure out your local meta, and pick some high impact, but niche, sideboard options to run in the remaining 10 slots, as boarding more than 4 cards is incredibly difficult without diluting too much.
One meta trend that I'm noticing is the rise in Leyline of the Void. It's been slowly climbing the ranks of most played cards, sitting at 40th in April and 36th in May, and almost primarily in Stompy decks. If you find yourself playing against these decks a lot, it's probably worth splashing White for Serenity, as it can wipe Chalice+Leyline much more efficiently than any other option. In Green, Decay doesn't answer leyline, but Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth are likely good enough answers, as these decks aren't able to cast Leyline if you bounce it. You could also try Trygon Predator, but I'm personally a bit wary of that option (slow, 3 cmc, creature so it can mess up our reanimation), but a few people are interested in giving it a shot.
Hope this post gives some of you some direction.
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
One more piece of advice both for constructing sideboards as well as what to bring in: Over sideboarding is very easy with this deck. So you're really looking to bring in 3-5 cards tops so as to not wreck your own game plan. To that end, pick whatever the most powerful cards are for matchups you want to sideboard against, and only bring in the ones that are overwhelmingly powerful. Our game plan is likely more powerful than whatever else you're playing against, so rely on that. You're going to get blown out sometimes by a random Leyline out of a BUG Control deck (good lord that sucked), but you just have to take those lumps. So referencing Acclimation's post...
You have a couple more generic answers in Chain of Vapor and Silent Gravestone. Beyond that, pick what you want to beat (or alternatively, pick what you want to lose to).
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
On the topic of sideboarding, I find the way I board to be very heavily dependent on whether I'm on the play or draw.
On the play, I find myself trimming on ponders/probes/CoBrus.
On the draw, I find myself cutting therapies and some number of probes.
Obviously, this is a generality and will change depending on matchup(s). YMMV
Yeah, that's a hard thing to nail down, as to what exactly to take out. I do think it is very matchup dependent though. I trim a Griselbrand a lot, and sometimes an LED. I cut Probes in matchups that I think are going to go long, and Ponders in matchups where I value speed more. Therapy gets trimmed vs. Chalice or hatebear decks.
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
I've never considered trimming a Griselbrand. I've trimmed and LED on occasion.
A play/draw sideboarding guide might be a nice thing to work on, breaking it down for the top X decks in the format.
But, like you said, nailing something like that down might be difficult.
We might want to take cues from the DDFT guys and create a shared spreadsheet for games played.
I don't know how many other people are jamming the deck on MTGO like I am, but there should be enough people getting paper games in to get some decent data.
That's a good idea. The DDFT one has a lot of data in it - I can create one (and add sections for sideboarding details as well) hopefully this week.
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
This has been more or less my boarding with the deck as well. It's been easy to trim Probe+Griselbrand+Ponder+LED+Therapy in varying amounts depending on match-ups, but getting the exact numbers to trim is tricky.
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
Awesome!
Then all we need is someone as skilled at collating the data in a meaningful and usable way as Doishy.
Yeahhhhh, I just don't have the time for extensive analysis these days. :( I'll hopefully have something out there to share in a day or two. Likely will be blatantly stealing Doishy's work (thanks!!!!) to get started. :)
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Also... decent sized Primer update for Sideboard cards, sample sideboards, and sideboarding strategies courtesy of Acclimation.
Added a couple of possible sideboard card choices:
Hull Breach: given the rise of Leyline of the Void in Chalice decks, this card is another example of a compact, but high impact sideboard card. RG mana requirements make this difficult to cast and pretty much lock this into Green splashes that run a Badlands or Volcanic main deck, but in lieu of other options to hit multiple hate cards across different permanent types, it's hard to pass this efficient option up.
Abrade: compact card for dealing with artifacts and creatures. Has lots of targets versus Stompy decks, and allows you to skimp on spot removal to run other anti-hate options. Great option for Red splash lists.
And some sideboarding strategies:
Sideboarding for this deck is tricky. It’s easy to overboard, so look to swap 3-5 cards so you don’t dilute the game plan of the deck. We’re executing a plan that is likely more powerful than anything your opponent is doing, so look to board in high impact cards.
Let’s start with the most important cards:
3 Silent Gravestone (Easily the best protection spell for the GY, don’t leave home without it)
2 Chain of Vapor (General answer for damn near every permanent hate, and random storm generator and Marit Lage answer)
These 2 cards (5 slots total) will deal with 80% of the sb hate currently played.
For the next 10 slots, pick some number of the following based on personal preference, splash color, and meta considerations:
0-1 Tendrils of Agony (if Mastermind’s Acquisition is in your list)
0-2 Massacre(Death and Taxes is incredibly popular, and you don’t lose to 1 hate bear, you lose to a swarm of them)
2-3 Carpet of Flowers/Silence/Defense Grid (Anti counter magic and/or reactive spell hate. Carpet is best in a vacuum since it gives us more mana to combo and fight through soft counters, Silence has utility vs storm decks, and Grid splits the difference)
2-3 Serenity/Abrupt Decay* (Hate for chalice and other artifacts/enchantments, *with cmc restriction)
0-2 Hurkyl's Recall (When Chalice is prevalent)
0-1 Echoing Truth (Extra bounce never hurt anyone)
0-1 Splash land (Trop/Scrubland/Basic land/Bayou)
0-2 Fatal Push/Swords to Plowshares/Rending Volley/Sudden Shock (spot removal has its place in the deck. Volley is good vs Meddling Mage/Leovold heavy metas, Sudden Shock is great vs Mother of Runes and Infect)
0-2 Flusterstorm (some people like it as an additional counter magic and anti-combo protection spell)
0-1 Disenchant (Random chalice/Leyline/3ball value)
0-2 Abrade (Spot removal+Artifact hate in one card, great example of a high impact and compact sb card)
0-2 Phyrexian Arena (Good against discard decks, but Leovold just turns this into a Curse of the Pierced Heart, so beware)
0-3 Night's Whisper (similar to Arena, use against discard decks to dig out of topdeck mode faster)
0-2 Surgical Extraction (If you have a Reanimator heavy meta that doesn't get hosed by Silent Gravestone, it's worth running. Also, don’t be dumb and bring this in if you bring in Gravestone)
There are other SB options to consider, but this section should give a decent roadmap to start thinking about how to construct a sideboard for your local meta. Look to start with Gravestone+Chain of Vapor, then add niche sideboard options that the general answers can’t solve. Don’t forget, we do run 5-6 main deck discard spells, which can go a long way in stripping hate from your opponents. Figure out what you need to beat, or alternatively, what you are fine losing to.
To put it all together, here are some sample sideboards, assuming base UB with only one splash color:
For white splash lists:
3 Silent Gravestone
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Serenity
1 Plains
1 Disenchant
3 Silence
1 Tendrils of Agony (or 1 flex pending md config)
Green Splash:
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Massacre
3 Silent Gravestone
1 Tropical Island
1 Tendrils of Agony (or 1 flex, pending md config)
Red splash:
3 Silent Gravestone
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Abrade
2 Defense Grid
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Echoing Truth
1 Tendrils of Agony (or 1 flex)
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Along the same lines as Hull Breach, I've found Wear//Tear to play a similar role for the white splash. It fills that either/or/both role like Hull Breach, but it is slightly more mana intensive for both and uses 2 splash colors.
Although, i say all of this, yet I've switched to green for now.
The other 2 card options to consider for the deck: Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation. Both only hit one card type, but the extra benefit is being able to Entomb for them, or get rid of 2 permanents if you draw it naturally.
They probably aren't good enough to make the cut, but it's worth mentioning them in the conversation because of that built in Flashback.
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
Has anyone given thought to Composite Golem to jack Storm up egregiously and Tendrils out? Maybe even using that as an alternative in the event Griselbrand gets nixed?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote