Trust me, I've been thinking about including Icy Manipulator...but as you say, too expensive. If I can reasonably keep them off 2 mana I can try Isochron Scepter and something like Boomerang/Gigadrowse/Remand synergies (along with Arcane lab would be excellent.) I would want to do Scepter/Chant at that point, and well, who needs that other bullshit when you win by locking them out of the game with Scepter? A set of Factories would do the trick at that point and Black Vise isn't needed. The allure of Black Vise is how fast it can be early and how a soft lock can make it a reasonable way to win (rather than a hard lock.)
Also looking at Tangle Wire.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
My tangles just came in the mail yesterday, oddly enough. I don't know they will make the cut but they are a nice to have for a rainy day. Academy ruins is probably going to be a sure thing for mine. Just need to, you know, get it/them.
If you feel like splashing white, suppression field is mean to fetches among other things. And it has a high mana cost but Frozen Aether is the blue kismet.
The idea is to land a Vise, then lock them under Winter Orb/Tangle Wire so they can't play spells. Let vise do it's thing and win. I really feel that Standstill supports the plan in a huge way, either by giving me extra cards, stopping my opponent from playing spells, or giving the opponent extra cards to kill them with Vise. All-around I think it's the correct approach.
I was also wondering if it should go big mana, like with Cloudpost. That would let my one land untapping give me some gas. It would support Icy Manipulator and maybe something scarier like Sundering Titan. It's a thought, not sure it's good. The choice comes down to making efficient card choices vs. ramp to get the exact effect I want but higher up on the mana scale.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I don't think this fits in your deck at all, but I just came across Teferi's Response. If only it was more general it would be a kick ass stifle!
There are so many cards with exciting potential lying hidden. I mean, Predict used to be a card that was only used as a 1-of in some versions of Doomsday. Now it's a staple in Miracles. I think for this deck, Standstill is the nuts though. Strangle their mana with Orb/Wire/Wasteland/Stifle and make them desperate to crack Standstill.
I was going to actually try Icy Manipulator...but I think curving Orb into Tangle Wire does the job just fine. They can untap one land in the untap step, then the upkeep trigger of Wire happens. Hell, it makes Wire better for longer. Usually by the time Tangle Wire has only 1 counter it isn't very useful.
Other cards I might considering using:
Gigadrowse
Exhaustion
Mana Vapors
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
PM sent.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Debating a red splash for this deck, for a couple reasons:
1) Blood Moon
2) Lightning Bolt
3) Pyroblast/REB in sideboard
So I figured that Blood Moon may be simply better than Winter Orb at stalling my opponents. I don't have acceleration, and maybe I don't need it with Wasteland/Stifle. T3 is just fine. I could also work in some number of Lotus Petal to make it faster as well. The whole idea is to keep them from playing cards so Vise can do it's thing, or shut off removal with counterspells so Dreadnought can attack for 2 turns.
Theoretical red-splashed list (no Volcanics/Forces, remember, this is in the budget/casual category):
4x Black Vise
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Lotus Petal
4x Stifle
4x Daze
3x Blood Moon
4x Standstill
2x Counterspell
2x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Wasteland
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Flooded Strand
1x Steam Vents
9x Island
1x Mountain
Sideboard
3x Misdirection
3x Pyroblast
2x Echoing Truth
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Pyroclasm
2x Tormod's Crypt
No Force of Wills...but I think with acceleration like Lotus Petal I can have Counterspell available earlier. I might consider Simian Spirit Guide instead of Petal (instant speed) but I may need blue occasionally. The alternative attack power of SSG is minimal when I'm really trying to get 'em with Dread/Vise.
For the all-blue version I think I will have to drop in a Mishra's Factory, maybe put in a Tolaria West to tutor Factory/Ruins. I also think playing more than 4x Stifle for Drednought might be smart. Torpor Orb comes to mind. I also really want to squeeze in Trinket Mages, but that's going pretty deep when I am playing BStorm/Ponder and sets of both Vise and Dread.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
IF you go with a white splash tocatli honor guard I think would be an option. Also gives you access to artifact tutors (which blue has a decent amount of anyway) and standard white removal. Tezzeret the seeker can fetch a vise or dreadnought as well, but 5 mana might be a tough one.
Also, if you go with additional creatures, this just got spoiled, a 2 mana clone effect.
Although as mentioned all the moon effects/LD from red (and grim lavamancer) could be nice under a standstill/vise.
Another new one for, I assume, depths/wastelands:
or this. I don't know about any one else, but I feel like there are a lot of cool toys in the new core set. use the vise to hit them in combat and deal damage on their upkeep! haha.
Interesting Cards for sure. I was thinking that Dismember should be fine for removal and that the bolts/blood moons are probably unnecessary. I like that Winter Orb can lock down my opponent for a few turns and then I can smash face with it for 5 with animator, or with Vise if it becomes obsolete. However, there was already Giant Scissors (Ensoul Artifact) so I don't think I need this artificer. Focus on Vise to drain or Dreadnought for fast beats. My alternative plan has now become a couple copies of Mishra's Factory.
New list:
4x Black Vise
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
1x Nimble Obstructionist
4x Standstill
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Spell Pierce
3x Counterspell
3x Winter Orb
3x Dismember
4x Wasteland
2x Mishra’s Factory
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Flooded Strand
11x Island
Sideboard
1x Vendilion Clique
4x Misdirection
2x Dispel
2x Pact of Negation
3x Echoing Truth
3x Tormod’s Crypt
I really like the idea of Pat of Negation with Stifle, but it's probably too risky. It gives my Stifles more targets if I'm facing a matchup where they aren't good at knocking fecthlands (which is rare.) Death and Taxes still has plenty of targets for stifle (SFM, Flickerwisp, Vial, equips) so the land hate isn't good but the card is still great at messing them up. It's also really good against other non-fetch decks like Depths because it can stifle their combo, both Hexmage and Depths. I can also Stifle Needle triggers, lol. Storm straight up loses to stifle anyways, lol. So maybe Pact of Negation is too cute, and just unnecessary. Maybe some Ratchet Bombs instead, or Pithing Needles.
EDIT: I'm sorely tempted to play Gitaxian Probe + Pithing Needle to further screw over fetchlands, which allows my Stifles to work with Dreadnought. Wasteland + Stifle+ Needle naming your fetches? Seems quite good, if only in magical Christmasland.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Hey, did you get the cards?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
They are out for delivery today, I'll update after I get home from work. My comment in the PM about your mail times was the fact it said my shipment to you delivered around 1pm. mine never gets delivered (into my mail box) until 430 or so.
Maybe its too slow, but would adding sorcerous spyglass be worth it for pithing needle 5-8?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I think I might have to drop the Vise idea and go with Delvers. It's just better on so many levels. It would be great to break vise, but this won't do it.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I've been messing around with some lists, and I think I've arrived at a point where I know what I want the deck to do:
1) Utilize mana-denial via Stifle/Wasteland
2) Recur artifacts with Academy Ruins (Spellbombs, Crypt, etc.)
3) Have a toolbox/tutor engine (Artificer's Intuition)
4) Utilize Ghirapur Aether Grid (this is the missing piece of the puzzle for me, it allows Vises to do work after they don't trigger)
So without further ado, here is the list:
4x Black Vise
4x Aether Spellbomb
4x Pyrite Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Expedition Map
3x Artificer's Intuition
3x Ghirapur Aether Grid
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind
3x Shrapnel Blast
2x Counterspell
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Flooded Strand
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Steam Vents
2x Spirebluff Canal
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Great Furnace
4x Wasteland
2x Academy Ruins
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Tolaria West
Sideboard
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Dispel
2x Pyroblast
3x Pyroclasm
2x Abrade
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
This is uber janky, and uber budget (for legacy standards.) I ended up cutting Standstill because I want AI to be the engine. Sideboard could have aton of easily splashed things.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Where are your Back to Basics? That's the easiest way to hate out expensive manabases with monoblue. Combined with any kind of cards taxing their spells or attacks, you can support Black Vise as a kill condition.
Are you avoiding Back to Basics because this is budget casual and your opponents won't have expensive manabases? If so, Stifle+Snapcaster may not be that good either.
Ways to tax the opponent's mana and clog their hand while Vise Kills them:
Propaganda
Trinisphere
Mana Breach
Overburden
Jace Beleren
Back to Basics
Lodestone Golem
Engulf the Shores
Pendrell Mists
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I like your list. Vise was always a fave of mine, though I see you are working away from it. If you went back to mono blue, you could try Vedalken Certarch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=208257) if you did an artifact heavy build with Seat of the Synod and Mox Opal. You could also try adding standstills. I like Snapcasters here too.
You could also try Arcane Denial as a Counterspell. They get the option to draw during following upkeep, which they may want to avoid if you have a vise lock going, plus you get to draw as well.
Have you thought about Rishadan Ports for control?
—edit—
Remand is better than Arcane Denial here. I quickly threw this list together. Vault skirge is for a turn one artifact, minor threat, that can help with metal craft for Certarch and Opal. Wastes and ports help lock down opponent, as does certarch, who you can use to tap lands during their upkeep.
4 vise
4 mox opal
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 vedalken certarch
4 vault skirge
2 snapcaster mage
2 standstill
2 JTMS
4 ponder
2 remand
4 seat of synod
4 rishandan port
4 wasteland
2 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
6 island
This SCREAMS for winter orb. Do you know how good it is with Aether Grid? And with black vise?
With a real mana base you could also run daze. Its also great with vise since they will be anxious to empty their hand -> play into daze. Not to mention its awesome with winter orb.
With less artifacts and more spells you could run delver as vise 5-8.
I know were leaving jank territory here but i believe vise delver could be a thing.
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