Not sure if this archetype warrants it's own thread but it beats having information about the deck being posted in a billion other threads and gives us 1 location to talk about the deck. Seems like the lists that have the most success are either BUGr or UBRg. I could see a metagame where you would want a white splash over one of the other splashes but I think that having access to the blast effects right now is just so good.
From my experience as far as matchups go the deck feels a lot like shardless where if it gets going it's very hard to stop. I think you're pretty favored in matchups and depending on the matchup kind of/heavily unfavored in nonblue matchups.
Tomas Mar's List (UBRg)
Lands
1 x Badlands
4 x Underground Sea
2 x Tropical Island
2 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Scalding Tarn
4 x Polluted Delta
2 x Wasteland
1 x Volcanic Island
Creatures
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Baleful Strix
2 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Spells
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
1 x Painful Truths
1 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 x Night's Whisper
2 x Inquisition of Kozilek
1 x Thoughtseize
4 x Force of Will
1 x Lightning Bolt
1 x Fatal Push
3 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Kolaghan's Command
2 x Liliana of the Veil
2 x Hymn to Tourach
Sideboard
1 x Life from the Loam
2 x Forked Bolt
2 x Diabolic Edict
1 x Marsh Casualties
3 x Pyroblast
1 x Invasive Surgery
2 x Flusterstorm
2 x Nihil Spellbomb
1 x Wasteland
Call1Me1Dragon's List (BUGr)
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Badlands
4 Baleful Strix
1 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Fatal Push
2 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Painful Truths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spell Snare
1 Thoughtseize
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Wasteland
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fire Covenant
1 Flusterstorm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Golgari Charm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
Nice, I think a new thread is definitely warranted. I also would like to point out there is a more Grixis/UB-esque 4c version that is pretty popular: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/591343#paper
Lets get to DTB :D
I really dislike the deck name. 4c Control is way too ambiguous; it's even worse than the era where every deck that had Delver of Secrets in it was called U/x Delver, despite the rest of the cards/strategy.
Weren't people calling this Czech Pile?
EDIT: To further elaborate on my point, is this thread specifically for discussing BURG (in whichever order)?
I think the main difference in versions of Czech Pile are heavy discard vs heavy Countermagic. I like the two snare two counter versions over the hymn and inquisition versions.
Several folks in the States (including me) are playing Thoughtseize rather than Hymn+Inquisition. I think any of the configurations work, it's mostly a question of reactive/proactive balance. The discard-heavy versions are more apt to play something like maindeck Leovolds, True-Names, Goyfs, Anglers, or Tombstalkers to end the game quickly and be stronger against nonblue decks and combo, but the versions with Snare tend to be better in the mirror. Some number of Counterspell seems right regardless.
The other big questions I see regarding how to best build the deck are about the manabase. First, do we want basics (I don't think they're worth it), and do we want Wastelands (probably)?
I'm not a big fan of running basics in this list, you basically need access to all 4 colors by turn 2 but I can see a case for a swamp since you can run DRS -> whatever spells. Unsure of the wasteland, I like having the ability to take out a utility land or the depths combo. I feel like if you're running any basics though the wastelands are off the table.
I think basics are way too greedy when you want UB for Strix, UU for Jace, BB for Hymn/Liliana, UGB for Leovold, GB for Decay, multiple colors of whatever with Snapcaster + flashback, BR for Kologhan's, etc.
The best defense against Wasteland is to play more duals. Basics are better as a defense against Wastelock, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, etc, but I think you have to accept the vulnerability to those strategies, else you shouldn't be playing 4 colors.
It seems to be some confusion here. Czech Pile is the "official" name for the true 4c list popularized by Thomas Mar. It plays all four colors MD, zero basics and wastelands. Then we have the other version I mentioned above, championed by pellenik on MTGO. It is 4c as well, but it's MD is only three colors (or 2 colors even apart from 2 KC). That deck can definitely run basics etc.
Suggestion: If you want to talk more broadly about 4c control, then keep the name as is and keep the different version in mind whilst discussing things such as basics etc. Alternatively, rename the thread Czech Pile and focus on that style only. :)
Hey y'all, just wanted to throw my current list into the ring and get some constructive feedback from people who have been playing this archetype for a while:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan’s Command
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Night’s Whisper
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
// sideboard //
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Dread of Night
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties/Toxic Deluge/Engineered Explosives (still figuring out this slot)
1 Vendilion Clique
I was playing straight BUG for a while, but Pyroblast seems super good right now, prompting my pivot. Locally there's a lot of DnT, which makes me want to sleeve up TNNs and play a more proactive strategy. With three TNNs; two Leovolds; Liliana, the Last Hope to recur them; and a Jace, I'm trying to tax opposing Pyroblasts. Since I'm tapping out for these three-drop threats, I opted to go with Hymns over Counterspells and skew my mana base . I'm basically only splashing for four red cards and four green cards in the 75, so I think the mana base is stable, even with two basics.
I've found 19 lands and only three Ponders to be sufficient so far. I haven't had very many problems casting my spells. The sideboard is certainly up for debate. Only two Decays in the 75 might be wrong, but at least Spell Snare helps me deal with some of the scarier two-drop Decay targets like Chalice and Counterbalance. Hearing everyone speak so highly of Counterspell makes me want to try to find room for it again, though I wonder if it conflicts too much with the Hymn plan. Having a clean answer to topdecks would feel good.
Overall, I'd say this deck hits harder than most of the 4C lists I've seen but grinds a touch worse with only two Snapcasters and three Strix. I'm curious if anyone has tried the new Lili and think it has merit. I figure it's an un-Pyroblastable threat that synergizes with my heavier creature plan and reduces the need to play things like Forked Bolt, but being answerable by Decay stinks. This TNN + Leovold shell has treated me pretty well of late, but I'm always looking for ways to improve the list.
Thanks, everyone!
I feel like all versions of the deck should be welcome here since they're taking the same approach to the games but with different depths of splashes. Really it's all just semantics at this point. From looking online it looks like there are really 3 approaches that people have taken to the deck: BUGr (Czech Pile), BURg (Grixis Control i.e. what Kevin King and Jones have written about), and BUrg (Mengu/Noah).
Isn't this just BUrg delver aka castlevania?
The Parfait Meta-Game
Without Delver, more lands and higher curve?
lordofthepit has been playing this deck for some time now: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22711&iddeck=175625
I've been playing this deck the last few weeks to great success. Weekly in four 4 rounder’s I've gone 3-1 thrice and 4-0 once. In a GPT I lost in the finals. I don’t claim to be an expert with the deck or Legacy in general, but this deck is incredibly powerful and has answers to almost anything I’ve come across. Advantages that it has over decks so far from what I can tell is that it slays Miracles, Elves, Delver, and non-Show and Tell / Sneak Attack based combo. It also ignores Chalice of the Void pretty well with its higher mana curve, as well as maindeck Abrupt Decay and Kolaghan’s Command.
Two huge weaknesses of the deck so far are Blood Moon and Death and Taxes. My local meta is infested with small white creatures, so I pack at least 3 Dread of Night in the sideboard. Blood Moon is a nightmare that I can only imagine beating by packing 3 or 4 blue blasts. As I’m typing this maybe Swan Song is an answer as it also deals with Show and Tell and Sneak Attack…
Anyways, here’s the list:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Lost Legacy
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Dread of Night
Last edited by bigbobbobber; 04-11-2017 at 01:16 PM.
"On the other hand, I am still wondering on which basis certain people appoint themselves authorities on a matter; postcount does not equal stormcount."
- CabalTherapy
Glad there's a thread. There has been some other discussion in the Team America Midrange/Control thread, but these lists have been much closer than others in that thread.
Also may want to include the lists from the SCG Open this weekend - several players (Noah Walker, Kevin King, Kevin Jones, Oliver Tiu) played fairly well tuned, very similar lists (2 made T32). Kevin King also discussed the list in the meta in an SCG feature.
The general form of most MTGO/TC Deck lists that have shown up so far have had shockingly little variance from the same basic structure, even when individual choices have varied:
20 Lands
* Flex: 0-2 Wasteland
* Flex: 0-3 Basics
14-16 Threats (15 most common)
* 4 DRS 4 Strix, 3-4 SCM, 1-2 JTMS
* 1-2 Flex: Leovold, Clique, Liliana
9-10 Draw (9 most common)
* 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder
* 1-2 Night's Whisper / Painful Truths
7-8 Removal
* 1-3 Fatal Push
* 0-2 Lightning Bolt
* 0-2 Abrupt Decay
* 1-2 Kolaghan's Command
* Flex: Murderous Cut, Edict, Dismember, Pulse, Engineered Explosives
8-9 Disruption
* 4 FoW
* Discard: Thoughtseize, Hymn, IoK (1/2/2 is popular)
* Counters: Counterspell, Spell Snare, Pyroblast
The biggest 3 variations have come in the manabase (basics or no, wasteland or no), the disruption package (discard-heavy vs. instant-speed, which pairs well with Clique), and the high-end threats/finishers (Clique vs. Leovold vs. Lily). Another reasonable question is whether it's worth finding maindeck removal alternatives that can deal with problem threats: TNN, Crusader, Delve threats, Reality Smasher.
(I've been playing 2 TNN in the threat slots and found them almost unnecessarily strong on defense, but solid finishers that continue to deny opponents profitable use of removal spells. They do have the downside of all non-flash threats, which may skew the disruption package toward discard.)
I've had great success against DnT with TNNs, Leovolds, Jitte, and Hymns and shaving some of the value cards. If you're curious, my list is a few posts above this one. It's still a work in progress, but at the very least it's been a solid favorite against DnT while having great game against most of the field. Blood Moon is still crushing, of course, but DnT has felt comfortable.
I'll quote Gerry T on my feelings on basics in this deck. His original statement was in a shardless primer but the same principles apply here too.
Some say that basic lands fight cards like Wasteland, Back to Basics, and Blood Moon, but that's not entirely true. If you have a two-lander against RUG Delver, you fetch a basic and a dual, and they Wasteland you, you are more mana screwed than if you had simply fetched two duals. If you fetched two basics, you'd be mana screwed even in the face of a Wasteland.
Against Blood Moon and Back to Basics, the same principle applies, as you don't have nearly enough basics to fight those cards. A reconfiguration of the deck could be used to fight those cards, but if you plan on playing Hymn to Tourach (and you should), then it's nearly impossible.
There is some merit to Swamp, Deathrite Shaman fighting those cards, but do you really need the Swamp in those scenarios?
You can definitely run basics if you go with the more UB-version. Also I really don't agree with that GerryT quote. Sure, having basics isn't really protecting you against wasteland specifically (but being able to curve out with basics against wasteland is good) but basics make you able to beat other stuff like Moon/PoP which is pretty huge. Really version dependent as stated before.
Basics are great when you're colored costs are not very demanding. In all of these 4 color piles I've seen, the colored costs are all over the place. You're going to lose more games to color screw because of basic lands than you're going to win because you have basics to fight against niche hate.
I'll repeat what I said before. Running basics in these color intensive lists is greedy.
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