Come on Golgari boyz bring in some good stuff for Dredge!!!
I would absolutely love a return to Lorwyn. If I remember correctly, it was wildly popular too.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
They don't have any other real villains left after Bolas is beaten, so they have to settle with Phyrexians (not that I mind too much). Eldrazi are a lost cause after two of the eldritch abomination titans gots BBQ'ed by an asspull and Emrakul was locked away because marketing said so. They were too ill-received the second time around to bring them back anytime soon.
The real problem with the Neo-Phyrexians is how OP the glistening oil is, given how easy it is for it to corrupt entire planes and Karn spread it over dozens, if not hundreds of planes.
I don't think that is true, but I can't find a good source for any concrete data on sales from that time. This implies it, but lacks any real sources. I recall playing at that time and it not seeming very popular. There are also some anecdotal sayings from MaRo about the sets just being too complex and not very popular.
Honestly, people just like good cards, I don't think the setting matters much. Both things really just help the other. Good cards don't save a bad setting, but good setting can't save bad cards. There are outliers, like Theros, where the setting and the cards pretty much sucked, but sales were still good, but I think that is the exception, not the rule.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Maybe I'm confusing how much I liked the set for how popular it was...it just seemed like the tribal synergies took off like wildfire. Yes, faeries was ultimately a drag to standard, but before that there was G/B elves, merfolk, and even kithkin that were competitive.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I think it might have been a case of it being really popular with those it was popular with. But I think, in general, the block was not great for sales. I also think that these low sales were what made some cards, like Vendilion Clique, and especially Fulminator Mage "relatively" expensive when they started seeing Legacy/Vintage and Modern play, respectively. I think Lorowyn, the set itself, was reasonably popular, since it debuted Planeswalkers, but the rest of the block was large "under opened" especially by modern standards (although, obviously not Coldsnap-level).
Of course Wizards, no doubt, doesn't really care to disentangle the complex question of which lead to poor sales, the setting, the complexity issues, or the power-level. They'll just throw the baby out with the bathwater to be done with it. This is why I was rather surprised to see them go back to Dominaria, because Time Spiral block was not great for sales. Thing is, Dominaria has way more "history" behind it, where Lorowyn is just going to suffer for some relatively tame but ultimately poor decisions because it was One (Block) and Done. Perhaps though, if they can come up with a reasonable way to go back to a "tribal" block, they might be inclined to try again, but I'd be skeptical they wouldn't just go a new direction.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Bitterblossom Cryptic Thoughtseize Ponder YEE
Don't forget Spellstutter, all the Merfolk shit, Scapeshift (not at the time though, obviously), Clique, Reveillark, Fulminator, Mutavault...
Made a list of tournament playables from all the sets. These are just rares, so we're missing juicy stuff like Mulldrifter, Shriekmaw, basically all of G/B Elf Rock, Merfolk and Demigod Red and Elfball. Lorwyn was very easy, there are a couple sketchier picks in SHA/EVE.
Lorwyn: (23/80)
Tribelands (5)
Cloudthresher
Cryptic Command
Doran, the Siege Tower
Gaddock Teeg
Garruk Wildspeaker
Jace Beleren
Liliana Vess
Masked Admirers
Mirror Entity
Mistbind Clique
Primal Command
Profane Command
Scion of Oona
Sower of Temptation
Sygg, River Guide
Thorn of Amethyst
Thoughtseize
Wren's Run Packmaster
Morningtide: (12/50)
Bitterblossom
Chameleon Colossus
Countryside Crusher
Earwig Squad
Gilt-Lead Archdruid
Grimoire Thief
Murmuring Bosk
Mutavault
Reveillark
Rustic Clachan
Scapeshift
Vendilion Clique
Shadowmoor: (17-19/80)
Filterlands (5)
Demigod of Revenge
Deus of Calamity
Everlasting Torment
Fulminator Mage
Oversoul of Dusk
Prismatic Omen
Puppeteer Clique
Reflecting Pool
Runed Halo
Swans of Bryn Argoll
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Vexing Shusher
Wilt-Leaf Liege
Woodfall Primus
Eventide: (17/60)
Filterlands (5)
Archon of Justice
Call the Skybreaker
Cold-Eyed Selkie
Figure of Destiny
Glen Elendra Archmage
Hallowed Burial
Regal Force
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Stigma Lasher
Stillmoon Cavalier
Wake Thrasher
Worm Harvest
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Focus always goes to the rares, because, yeah, they're good.
But it'd be criminal not to highlight stuff like Flickerwisp and Heritage Druid. Pretty much all the creatures that make Elf combo work are common or uncommon.
It's not just that: there were a TON of midrange Red powerhouses and Lorwyn contained a ton of tribal lords at Uncommon.
Lorwyn:
Burrenton Forge-Tender, Cloudgoat Ranger, Knight of Meadowgrain, Makeshift Mannequin, Marsh Flitter, Imperious Perfect, Merrow Reejerey, Shriekmaw, Silvergill Adept, Vivid lands, Wizened Cenn, Wren's Run Vanquisher
AEthersnipe, Aquitect's Will, Eyeblight's Ending, Ingot Chewer, Lys Alana Huntmaster, Mournwhelk, Mulldrifter, Nameless Inversion, Oblivion Ring, Peppersmoke, Pestermite, Ponder, Spellstutter Sprite, Tarfire, Wispmare
Morningtide:
Heritage Druid, Offalsnout, Oona's Blackguard, Sage's Dousing, Warren Weirding, Wolf-Skull Shaman
Disperse, Distant Melody, Negate, Roar of the Crowd
Shadowmoor:
Ashenmoor Gouger, Beseech the Queen, Bloodmark Mentor, Boggart Ram-Gang, Cursecatcher, Firespout, Flame Javelin, Guttural Response, Kitchen Finks, Murderous Redcap, Plumeveil, Prison Term, Spectral Procession, Tattermunge Maniac, Torrent of Souls, Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
Curse of Chains, Devoted Druid, Faerie Macabre, Farhaven Elf, Giantbaiting, Gleeful Sabotage, Manamorphose, Presence of Gond, Scar, Scarscale Ritual, Shield of the Oversoul, Silkbind Faerie, Smash to Smithereens
Eventide:
Duergar Hedge-Mage, Flickerwisp, Nucklavee, Unwilling Recruit
Beckon Appartition, Cenn's Enlistment, Flame Jab, Inside Out, Nettle Sentinel, Raven's Crime, Slippery Bogle, Snakeform, Unmake, Wickerbough Elder
The amount of "wow" cards did drop off, even if the twin block in itself was a house. It was the largest Standard format ever, so in addition to there being a ton of decks and nutty cards, well. Crap.
Originally Posted by Lemnear
mmmmhhhmmmm, more shocks reprints
Yes, tons of eternal impact and a fun standard. This was the golden age of Magic for me. The only thing that soured the community was the dominance of Faeries, which was replaced bye the dominance of Jund in Shards standard. Still, we're not talking Eldrazi winter, Affinity, or even Jace/Stoneforge dominance. I remember how big of a deal Volcanic Fallout was when it hit while faeries was the DTB. Balancing like that just doesn't happen anymore, sadly.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Yeah, I mean, at the time, having recently gotten back into the game, I was playing Vintage and Standard. It didn't even feel bad or gross. But that is kind of my point. Mistakes were made with the power-level of a couple strategies in that time, which lead to a whole slew of subsequent strategies and the whole thing went south...which is kind of the point I was making, that Wizards is not really willing (or probably all that able) to disentangle what went wrong in that era. It's far easier to just say "Lorwyn wasn't a popular setting" and leave it at that, or point of some nebulous issue of "complexity" and move on. Not that MaRo isn't open to acknowledging mistakes, which is one of the few things I like about him, but the issue can often be pointing to some obvious thing and claiming that is the root of all the "problems." It is facile to say that the complexity of Lorwyn and Time Spiral were "issues" but you need to face a number of issues that made Standard less than idea in the years that followed. Oddly enough, the proof is in the pudding, since the issue of undesirable Standard environments reared it's head again more recently (and then again, prompting bans after bans), pointing to the fact of "complexity" not really being the root of what ails Standard and plausibly even the least of the issues at hand.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Good post. If you were to summarize what makes an un/desirable standard environment, that would be a great way to talk about why it's failing now. I was playing Extended, Standard, and casual when Lorwyn was on the scene (EDH wasn't a thing yet in my area.) Extended fostered so many broken strategies at the time that Legacy was boring in comparison, at least how I remember it. Once extended become a smaller format, and eventually was replaced with Modern, it became easy to move over to Legacy (lol, it was easy then...duals were all at $100 or less, IIRC.)
Regardless, I think the plane was interesting and created a great environment. Tribal was obviously a thing, but there was also just Doran Rock, Boat Brew, Reveillark Blink, Seismic Swans. More than anything I think the format was accessible from a skill point of view (not necessarily a price point of view. Bitterblossom was an $80, Cryptics were $50.) Building tribal decks is kind of a rite of passage for beginning magic players, just because the learning curve is so easy and the strategy can be powerful. If I were to summarize why I want a return to Lorwyn, I would say it's based on my perception of how accessible standard was at the time.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Well, we may know one card, and the set symbol, if this prerelease promo leak is authentic.
Macabre Hatchery 3
Sorcery
Choose a creature card with converted mana cost of 1 in your graveyard, then do the same for a creature card with converted mana cost of 2 and 3. Return those cards to the battlefield.
"Variety is also the spice of death"
--Cevraya, Golgari shaman
The "choose" wording means you can cast this even if you don't have 3 creatures to reanimate, correct?
Correct, since the card doesn't target any of them.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)