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Thread: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

  1. #21

    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Come on Golgari boyz bring in some good stuff for Dredge!!!

  2. #22
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    I would absolutely love a return to Lorwyn. If I remember correctly, it was wildly popular too.
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    When WotC started with revisiting planes, people were excited, but given how they turned the amazing Ravnica into a shitshow during the second run and made it all about Jace, Jace and Jace again while removing all elements which made the guilds and plane interresting, I doubt that this third installment is soooooo well received. I want to remind that the Zendikar rerun was also a total mess. They are out of ideas. Wouldn't be surprised at all, if this block is followed by another Mirrodin/Phyrexia spin
    They don't have any other real villains left after Bolas is beaten, so they have to settle with Phyrexians (not that I mind too much). Eldrazi are a lost cause after two of the eldritch abomination titans gots BBQ'ed by an asspull and Emrakul was locked away because marketing said so. They were too ill-received the second time around to bring them back anytime soon.

    The real problem with the Neo-Phyrexians is how OP the glistening oil is, given how easy it is for it to corrupt entire planes and Karn spread it over dozens, if not hundreds of planes.

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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I would absolutely love a return to Lorwyn. If I remember correctly, it was wildly popular too.
    I don't think that is true, but I can't find a good source for any concrete data on sales from that time. This implies it, but lacks any real sources. I recall playing at that time and it not seeming very popular. There are also some anecdotal sayings from MaRo about the sets just being too complex and not very popular.

    Honestly, people just like good cards, I don't think the setting matters much. Both things really just help the other. Good cards don't save a bad setting, but good setting can't save bad cards. There are outliers, like Theros, where the setting and the cards pretty much sucked, but sales were still good, but I think that is the exception, not the rule.
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Maybe I'm confusing how much I liked the set for how popular it was...it just seemed like the tribal synergies took off like wildfire. Yes, faeries was ultimately a drag to standard, but before that there was G/B elves, merfolk, and even kithkin that were competitive.
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Maybe I'm confusing how much I liked the set for how popular it was...it just seemed like the tribal synergies took off like wildfire. Yes, faeries was ultimately a drag to standard, but before that there was G/B elves, merfolk, and even kithkin that were competitive.
    I think it might have been a case of it being really popular with those it was popular with. But I think, in general, the block was not great for sales. I also think that these low sales were what made some cards, like Vendilion Clique, and especially Fulminator Mage "relatively" expensive when they started seeing Legacy/Vintage and Modern play, respectively. I think Lorowyn, the set itself, was reasonably popular, since it debuted Planeswalkers, but the rest of the block was large "under opened" especially by modern standards (although, obviously not Coldsnap-level).

    Of course Wizards, no doubt, doesn't really care to disentangle the complex question of which lead to poor sales, the setting, the complexity issues, or the power-level. They'll just throw the baby out with the bathwater to be done with it. This is why I was rather surprised to see them go back to Dominaria, because Time Spiral block was not great for sales. Thing is, Dominaria has way more "history" behind it, where Lorowyn is just going to suffer for some relatively tame but ultimately poor decisions because it was One (Block) and Done. Perhaps though, if they can come up with a reasonable way to go back to a "tribal" block, they might be inclined to try again, but I'd be skeptical they wouldn't just go a new direction.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I think it might have been a case of it being really popular with those it was popular with. But I think, in general, the block was not great for sales. I also think that these low sales were what made some cards, like Vendilion Clique, and especially Fulminator Mage "relatively" expensive when they started seeing Legacy/Vintage and Modern play, respectively. I think Lorowyn, the set itself, was reasonably popular, since it debuted Planeswalkers, but the rest of the block was large "under opened" especially by modern standards (although, obviously not Coldsnap-level).

    Of course Wizards, no doubt, doesn't really care to disentangle the complex question of which lead to poor sales, the setting, the complexity issues, or the power-level. They'll just throw the baby out with the bathwater to be done with it. This is why I was rather surprised to see them go back to Dominaria, because Time Spiral block was not great for sales. Thing is, Dominaria has way more "history" behind it, where Lorowyn is just going to suffer for some relatively tame but ultimately poor decisions because it was One (Block) and Done. Perhaps though, if they can come up with a reasonable way to go back to a "tribal" block, they might be inclined to try again, but I'd be skeptical they wouldn't just go a new direction.
    The power level was pretty damn high, though, if memory serves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The power level was pretty damn high, though, if memory serves.
    Yeah, it was pretty good, I was even playing Standard around that time. I think the high power-level of some stuff rubbed people the wrong way though, which eventually lead us to Zendikar and New Phyrexia, really...
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  9. #29

    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Bitterblossom Cryptic Thoughtseize Ponder YEE
    Don't forget Spellstutter, all the Merfolk shit, Scapeshift (not at the time though, obviously), Clique, Reveillark, Fulminator, Mutavault...

  10. #30
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Made a list of tournament playables from all the sets. These are just rares, so we're missing juicy stuff like Mulldrifter, Shriekmaw, basically all of G/B Elf Rock, Merfolk and Demigod Red and Elfball. Lorwyn was very easy, there are a couple sketchier picks in SHA/EVE.

    Lorwyn: (23/80)
    Tribelands (5)
    Cloudthresher
    Cryptic Command
    Doran, the Siege Tower
    Gaddock Teeg
    Garruk Wildspeaker
    Jace Beleren
    Liliana Vess
    Masked Admirers
    Mirror Entity
    Mistbind Clique
    Primal Command
    Profane Command
    Scion of Oona
    Sower of Temptation
    Sygg, River Guide
    Thorn of Amethyst
    Thoughtseize
    Wren's Run Packmaster

    Morningtide: (12/50)
    Bitterblossom
    Chameleon Colossus
    Countryside Crusher
    Earwig Squad
    Gilt-Lead Archdruid
    Grimoire Thief
    Murmuring Bosk
    Mutavault
    Reveillark
    Rustic Clachan
    Scapeshift
    Vendilion Clique

    Shadowmoor: (17-19/80)
    Filterlands (5)
    Demigod of Revenge
    Deus of Calamity
    Everlasting Torment
    Fulminator Mage
    Oversoul of Dusk
    Prismatic Omen
    Puppeteer Clique
    Reflecting Pool
    Runed Halo
    Swans of Bryn Argoll
    Sygg, River Cutthroat
    Vexing Shusher
    Wilt-Leaf Liege
    Woodfall Primus


    Eventide: (17/60)
    Filterlands (5)
    Archon of Justice
    Call the Skybreaker
    Cold-Eyed Selkie
    Figure of Destiny
    Glen Elendra Archmage
    Hallowed Burial
    Regal Force
    Rise of the Hobgoblins
    Stigma Lasher
    Stillmoon Cavalier
    Wake Thrasher
    Worm Harvest
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  11. #31
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Focus always goes to the rares, because, yeah, they're good.
    But it'd be criminal not to highlight stuff like Flickerwisp and Heritage Druid. Pretty much all the creatures that make Elf combo work are common or uncommon.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Focus always goes to the rares, because, yeah, they're good.
    But it'd be criminal not to highlight stuff like Flickerwisp and Heritage Druid. Pretty much all the creatures that make Elf combo work are common or uncommon.
    It's not just that: there were a TON of midrange Red powerhouses and Lorwyn contained a ton of tribal lords at Uncommon.

    Lorwyn:
    Burrenton Forge-Tender, Cloudgoat Ranger, Knight of Meadowgrain, Makeshift Mannequin, Marsh Flitter, Imperious Perfect, Merrow Reejerey, Shriekmaw, Silvergill Adept, Vivid lands, Wizened Cenn, Wren's Run Vanquisher
    AEthersnipe, Aquitect's Will, Eyeblight's Ending, Ingot Chewer, Lys Alana Huntmaster, Mournwhelk, Mulldrifter, Nameless Inversion, Oblivion Ring, Peppersmoke, Pestermite, Ponder, Spellstutter Sprite, Tarfire, Wispmare

    Morningtide:
    Heritage Druid, Offalsnout, Oona's Blackguard, Sage's Dousing, Warren Weirding, Wolf-Skull Shaman
    Disperse, Distant Melody, Negate, Roar of the Crowd

    Shadowmoor:
    Ashenmoor Gouger, Beseech the Queen, Bloodmark Mentor, Boggart Ram-Gang, Cursecatcher, Firespout, Flame Javelin, Guttural Response, Kitchen Finks, Murderous Redcap, Plumeveil, Prison Term, Spectral Procession, Tattermunge Maniac, Torrent of Souls, Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers

    Curse of Chains, Devoted Druid, Faerie Macabre, Farhaven Elf, Giantbaiting, Gleeful Sabotage, Manamorphose, Presence of Gond, Scar, Scarscale Ritual, Shield of the Oversoul, Silkbind Faerie, Smash to Smithereens

    Eventide:
    Duergar Hedge-Mage, Flickerwisp, Nucklavee, Unwilling Recruit
    Beckon Appartition, Cenn's Enlistment, Flame Jab, Inside Out, Nettle Sentinel, Raven's Crime, Slippery Bogle, Snakeform, Unmake, Wickerbough Elder


    The amount of "wow" cards did drop off, even if the twin block in itself was a house. It was the largest Standard format ever, so in addition to there being a ton of decks and nutty cards, well. Crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  13. #33

    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    mmmmhhhmmmm, more shocks reprints

  14. #34
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The power level was pretty damn high, though, if memory serves.
    Yes, tons of eternal impact and a fun standard. This was the golden age of Magic for me. The only thing that soured the community was the dominance of Faeries, which was replaced bye the dominance of Jund in Shards standard. Still, we're not talking Eldrazi winter, Affinity, or even Jace/Stoneforge dominance. I remember how big of a deal Volcanic Fallout was when it hit while faeries was the DTB. Balancing like that just doesn't happen anymore, sadly.
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Yes, tons of eternal impact and a fun standard. This was the golden age of Magic for me. The only thing that soured the community was the dominance of Faeries, which was replaced bye the dominance of Jund in Shards standard. Still, we're not talking Eldrazi winter, Affinity, or even Jace/Stoneforge dominance. I remember how big of a deal Volcanic Fallout was when it hit while faeries was the DTB. Balancing like that just doesn't happen anymore, sadly.
    Yeah, I mean, at the time, having recently gotten back into the game, I was playing Vintage and Standard. It didn't even feel bad or gross. But that is kind of my point. Mistakes were made with the power-level of a couple strategies in that time, which lead to a whole slew of subsequent strategies and the whole thing went south...which is kind of the point I was making, that Wizards is not really willing (or probably all that able) to disentangle what went wrong in that era. It's far easier to just say "Lorwyn wasn't a popular setting" and leave it at that, or point of some nebulous issue of "complexity" and move on. Not that MaRo isn't open to acknowledging mistakes, which is one of the few things I like about him, but the issue can often be pointing to some obvious thing and claiming that is the root of all the "problems." It is facile to say that the complexity of Lorwyn and Time Spiral were "issues" but you need to face a number of issues that made Standard less than idea in the years that followed. Oddly enough, the proof is in the pudding, since the issue of undesirable Standard environments reared it's head again more recently (and then again, prompting bans after bans), pointing to the fact of "complexity" not really being the root of what ails Standard and plausibly even the least of the issues at hand.
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  16. #36
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Yeah, I mean, at the time, having recently gotten back into the game, I was playing Vintage and Standard. It didn't even feel bad or gross. But that is kind of my point. Mistakes were made with the power-level of a couple strategies in that time, which lead to a whole slew of subsequent strategies and the whole thing went south...which is kind of the point I was making, that Wizards is not really willing (or probably all that able) to disentangle what went wrong in that era. It's far easier to just say "Lorwyn wasn't a popular setting" and leave it at that, or point of some nebulous issue of "complexity" and move on. Not that MaRo isn't open to acknowledging mistakes, which is one of the few things I like about him, but the issue can often be pointing to some obvious thing and claiming that is the root of all the "problems." It is facile to say that the complexity of Lorwyn and Time Spiral were "issues" but you need to face a number of issues that made Standard less than idea in the years that followed. Oddly enough, the proof is in the pudding, since the issue of undesirable Standard environments reared it's head again more recently (and then again, prompting bans after bans), pointing to the fact of "complexity" not really being the root of what ails Standard and plausibly even the least of the issues at hand.
    Good post. If you were to summarize what makes an un/desirable standard environment, that would be a great way to talk about why it's failing now. I was playing Extended, Standard, and casual when Lorwyn was on the scene (EDH wasn't a thing yet in my area.) Extended fostered so many broken strategies at the time that Legacy was boring in comparison, at least how I remember it. Once extended become a smaller format, and eventually was replaced with Modern, it became easy to move over to Legacy (lol, it was easy then...duals were all at $100 or less, IIRC.)

    Regardless, I think the plane was interesting and created a great environment. Tribal was obviously a thing, but there was also just Doran Rock, Boat Brew, Reveillark Blink, Seismic Swans. More than anything I think the format was accessible from a skill point of view (not necessarily a price point of view. Bitterblossom was an $80, Cryptics were $50.) Building tribal decks is kind of a rite of passage for beginning magic players, just because the learning curve is so easy and the strategy can be powerful. If I were to summarize why I want a return to Lorwyn, I would say it's based on my perception of how accessible standard was at the time.
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  17. #37
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Good post. If you were to summarize what makes an un/desirable standard environment, that would be a great way to talk about why it's failing now. I was playing Extended, Standard, and casual when Lorwyn was on the scene (EDH wasn't a thing yet in my area.) Extended fostered so many broken strategies at the time that Legacy was boring in comparison, at least how I remember it. Once extended become a smaller format, and eventually was replaced with Modern, it became easy to move over to Legacy (lol, it was easy then...duals were all at $100 or less, IIRC.)

    Regardless, I think the plane was interesting and created a great environment. Tribal was obviously a thing, but there was also just Doran Rock, Boat Brew, Reveillark Blink, Seismic Swans. More than anything I think the format was accessible from a skill point of view (not necessarily a price point of view. Bitterblossom was an $80, Cryptics were $50.) Building tribal decks is kind of a rite of passage for beginning magic players, just because the learning curve is so easy and the strategy can be powerful. If I were to summarize why I want a return to Lorwyn, I would say it's based on my perception of how accessible standard was at the time.
    And Quick 'n Toast and Demigod Red, both of which were huge players. Hell, TS-Lor's "Big 3" RPS triangle was pretty much Faeries wtfbbqmurders Lark, Lark wtfbbqmurders the format, Demigod Red beats Faeries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  18. #38
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    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Well, we may know one card, and the set symbol, if this prerelease promo leak is authentic.



    Macabre Hatchery 3
    Sorcery
    Choose a creature card with converted mana cost of 1 in your graveyard, then do the same for a creature card with converted mana cost of 2 and 3. Return those cards to the battlefield.

    "Variety is also the spice of death"
    --Cevraya, Golgari shaman

  19. #39

    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    The "choose" wording means you can cast this even if you don't have 3 creatures to reanimate, correct?

  20. #40

    Re: [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

    Correct, since the card doesn't target any of them.

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