Is 23% of the top spot too much for one deck? How about two?

[WashableWater1]

I forgot that TNN has a blank text box, and is just a vanilla beater. [cloud spirit] was dominating for so long, I can't believe it got replaced by something without flying. It must be TNN's ability to block that pushes it over cloud spirit.

It basically is a vanilla beater that resists spot removal and blocks really well. In the grand scheme of things, if your deck can’t beat a True-name, it’s not a well built deck.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

That's such a disingenuous and poor-faith mode of engaging in a conversation.

[bakofried]

I have a feeling that part of the problem is the number of people who started playing Legacy relatively recently. Their expectations for the format are vastly different from those of folks who've been playing it for 5-10 years. Thus, when the latter crowd says "this is unhealthy, or at least less than ideal," the former thinks they're crazy because the format has been like this in some way or another for years.

If this has been said before, I apologize.

[Erdvermampfa]

I have a feeling that part of the problem is the number of people who started playing Legacy relatively recently. Their expectations for the format are vastly different from those of folks who've been playing it for 5-10 years. Thus, when the latter crowd says "this is unhealthy, or at least less than ideal," the former thinks they're crazy because the format has been like this in some way or another for years.

If this has been said before, I apologize.

The opportunities for new approaches has been narrowed down by all that power creeped stuff (TNN, Leo, Delver, Snap, Terminus, Grisel) though. From my perspective the space for innovation wasn't as restricted when Tarmogoyf was still considered the state of the art creature...

[JackaBo]

@JackaBo: I think everyone knows Counterbalance creates insurmountable one-sided advantage, it was only a matter of time before people rediscovered that simple truth. The issue is that the months where CB was almost non-existent people realized they could get away with SCM and cheap interactive spells not called Abrupt Decay; but it was Hymn's monolithic adoption by that strategy that is the real cause for pushing out every other non-Vial or non-Delver fair deck. Grixis Delver is always going to get rolled by Terminus & SCM/StP, and when the only other fair strategy left to care about (Czech), it doesn't take a genius to figure out you have to stay off-board with non-enchantments and concentrate value in the top card of the deck - and suddenly miracles with Counterbalance is tier one again. Now your non-competitive fair deck [again b/c of Czech] has to slow down and run Decay again [for CB] and Hymn is now even better against you, as you're that much slower at putting cards from hand onto the table.
---
This cycle really doesn't have anything to do with Grixis Delver, even though Git. Probe is a load of bull-crap. Even though CB is the most bannable card in legacy, that ban doesn't stop the above cycle (UW Standstill is just as effective at steamrolling either member of this 23% of the meta, and that status quo wouldn't really change). Like most issues, we're describing problems that arose from fetchlands, which won't be banned (b/c they won't reprint duals). If you want to tackle this over-representation issue, Hymn is probably the safest target. You could hit DRS of course, but I don't know how much you really want to try and make new fair decks against Stifle/Wasteland and Loam/Strip Mine - and even in that setting you're just asking for Counterbalance to be an even greater problem, so good luck brewing around a deck that pretty much has to run Decay without DRS mana fixing....I mean, there's not even a legacy playable, generically usable 1-drop creature for in the runner up slot.

I haven't though of hymn to be the perpetrator but maybe it is. I guess i should spend more time trying to break counterbalance, that card is nuts indeed.

[Lemnear]

I have a feeling that part of the problem is the number of people who started playing Legacy relatively recently. Their expectations for the format are vastly different from those of folks who've been playing it for 5-10 years.

The major difference might be that the newer players don't know that Legacy was much more open in terms of card and color variety before the Innistrad Block turned Legacy into a derp-fest introducing Miracle, Griselbrand, Delver & Co directly followed by Ravnica which had DRS + Abrupt Decay. These two blocks just flipturned the whole Legacy metagame and resulted into the stale meta we had since then with a short period of madness in 2014-2015 which was Treasure Cruise + Dig Through Time.

So if you started within the last 6 years, you never really knew how the format looked like before it degenerated into BUG vs rest. Only the freaking Delve spells delivered some format variance with Patriot, UR Delver, SnT, etc at that time, before the bannings of TC & DTT reverted the format to BUG vs Miracles. With the ban of SDT, we are now down to a one-core-format with endless "mirror" matches in each coverage streamed. It's a boring status quo for old and new players i guess.

[Megadeus]

The major difference might be that the newer players don't know that Legacy was much more open in terms of card and color variety before the Innistrad Block turned Legacy into a derp-fest introducing Miracle, Griselbrand, Delver & Co directly followed by Ravnica which had DRS + Abrupt Decay. These two blocks just flipturned the whole Legacy metagame and resulted into the stale meta we had since then with a short period of madness in 2014-2015 which was Treasure Cruise + Dig Through Time.

So if you started within the last 6 years, you never really knew how the format looked like before it degenerated into BUG vs rest. Only the freaking Delve spells delivered some format variance with Patriot, UR Delver, SnT, etc at that time, before the bannings of TC & DTT reverted the format to BUG vs Miracles. With the ban of SDT, we are now down to a one-core-format with endless "mirror" matches in each coverage streamed. It's a boring status quo for old and new players i guess.

I'm personally sad because I started watching legacy a few months after WWK came out and it was so cool so I started picking up cards for it. Then by the time I had a deck finally after Avacyn came out the shift had begun

[Lemnear]

I'm personally sad because I started watching legacy a few months after WWK came out and it was so cool so I started picking up cards for it. Then by the time I had a deck finally after Avacyn came out the shift had begun

It was Zendikar which imo kickstarted the creature powercreep and it was a glorious time with Kight of the Reliquary, Wild Nacatl, Gaddock Teeg & Co effectively rivaling the blue shell for a short time until the Survival + Vengevine shit broke lose, followed by Innistrad, which also had Thalia, which i forgot to list earlier.

[Zombie]

It was Zendikar which imo kickstarted the creature powercreep and it was a glorious time with Kight of the Reliquary, Wild Nacatl, Gaddock Teeg & Co effectively rivaling the blue shell for a short time until the Survival + Vengevine shit broke lose, followed by Innistrad, which also had Thalia, which i forgot to list earlier.

Uh, KOTR and Nacatl came out in Alara. As did other fun things like Lotus Cobra. Alara's long felt like a watershed moment for the game, IMO. Lorwyn was new creatures but somehow still old-ish sensibilities. Alara was where the game entered a new era proper.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Uh, KOTR and Nacatl came out in Alara. As did other fun things like Lotus Cobra. Alara's long felt like a watershed moment for the game, IMO. Lorwyn was new creatures but somehow still old-ish sensibilities. Alara was where the game entered a new era proper.

Lotus Cobra has landfall, it's from Zendikar. As for that watershed moment I wouldn't blame Alara I blame the core set around it. Everything in Alara was something I've seen before except maybe Nicol Bolas and Progenitus. Now Baneslayer Angel? That's the new magic.

[NeckBird]

I have a feeling that part of the problem is the number of people who started playing Legacy relatively recently. Their expectations for the format are vastly different from those of folks who've been playing it for 5-10 years. Thus, when the latter crowd says "this is unhealthy, or at least less than ideal," the former thinks they're crazy because the format has been like this in some way or another for years.

If this has been said before, I apologize.

So established Legacy players are the equivalent of old men yelling at children to get off their lawn? Cause that's what this format needs now more than anything else.

[Bithlord]

It basically is a vanilla beater that resists spot removal and blocks really well. In the grand scheme of things, if your deck can’t beat a True-name, it’s not a well built deck.

I'm not going to dispute either of those statements, really, but TNN is WAY more than 'just a 3/1 beater" specifically because it resists spot removal and blocks really well [also, you forgot to mention that it is unblockable].

Tarmogoyf, the unplayable, was actually just a big beater. TNN is much more than just a big beater.

[Lemnear]

Uh, KOTR and Nacatl came out in Alara. As did other fun things like Lotus Cobra. Alara's long felt like a watershed moment for the game, IMO. Lorwyn was new creatures but somehow still old-ish sensibilities. Alara was where the game entered a new era proper.

You're right. Brainfart. I'm sorry

[Zombie]

Apparently brainfarted myself and confused Alara and Zendikar :D

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Brainfarts for everyone!

[bakofried]

So established Legacy players are the equivalent of old men yelling at children to get off their lawn? Cause that's what this format needs now more than anything else.

If I seem to imply that, my apologies; but no, that's not my intent. I just remember when "strategic diversity" was what we laughed at Vintage players for talking up. No offense to them, of course.

[Bithlord]

Brainfarts for everyone!

Brainfart. {1}. You may not use U to play this. Look at the bottom three cards of your opponents deck. You may put any number of them on top of your opponents deck in any order. return the rest to the bottom of your opponents deck.

[WashableWater1]

I'm not going to dispute either of those statements, really, but TNN is WAY more than 'just a 3/1 beater" specifically because it resists spot removal and blocks really well [also, you forgot to mention that it is unblockable].

Tarmogoyf, the unplayable, was actually just a big beater. TNN is much more than just a big beater.

There was a time when people thought Tarmogoyf was a bannable card. Looking back it’s pretty laughable, for similar reasons similar to True-Name. Is it more than a dumb beater? Slightly. Is it impossible to answer? No. Is “My deck can’t beat a 3 mana creature that attacks and blocks and needs a bit of finesse to remove, so it should be banned” a good and strong argument? I certainly don’t think so.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

This guy's logic literally dictates that a 0 mana 20/20 wouldn't warrant a ban. This guy thinks that's a fine card that doesn't cause problems.

[WashableWater1]

This guy's logic literally dictates that a 0 mana 20/20 wouldn't warrant a ban. This guy thinks that's a fine card that doesn't cause problems.

Lol