Is 23% of the top spot too much for one deck? How about two?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

This guy's logic literally dictates that a 0 mana 20/20 wouldn't warrant a ban. This guy thinks that's a fine card that doesn't cause problems.

No one seems to care when people throw out 12/12s for one. The 20/20 usually costs two though...

[Ace/Homebrew]

No one seems to care when people throw out 12/12s for one. The 20/20 usually costs two though...

12/12s cost 2 mana. 15/15s cost 3 mana. I don't think anyone is arguing that TNN is incorrectly costed...

The issue is that the answers are so narrow and the kill is so slow. Opponents have to sit and watch a game they may have been winning unwind 3 life at a time. No one complained about Progenitus from what I remember.

If you are ahead and your opponent cheats Prog into play and you lose, you weren't really ahead, you just didn't know you were behind at the time. That can be easier to accept than actually being ahead, then slowly losing too a fragile 3/1 that you can't answer despite having a deck full of answers to everything else in the format.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

12/12s cost 2 mana.

You're paying too much, duder.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Both Dreadnought and Dark Depths are, in my opinion, examples of really well designed cards and infinitely less ban-worthy than TNN, Delver, or even Tarmogoyf. The first two cards require specific card choices and planning, they add diversity to the meta-game because they have to play cards that other people generally wouldn't. The latter require essentially no trade-off for what they do.

[Lemnear]

Both Dreadnought and Dark Depths are, in my opinion, examples of really well designed cards and infinitely less ban-worthy than TNN, Delver, or even Tarmogoyf. The first two cards require specific card choices and planning, they add diversity to the meta-game because they have to play cards that other people generally wouldn't. The latter require essentially no trade-off for what they do.

Point is that Marit Lage, Progenitus, Deadnought & Co are 2-card-combos and dead draws unless you also have the second piece needed.

Shit like TNN are no dead draws at 3 mana, do not need a second card to work, are evasive as fuck requiring specific answers and even pitch to FoW

[WashableWater1]

Point is that Marit Lage, Progenitus, Deadnought & Co are 2-card-combos and dead draws unless you also have the second piece needed.

Shit like TNN are no dead draws at 3 mana, do not need a second card to work, are evasive as fuck requiring specific answers and even pitch to FoW

Yes, fair decks do not play cards that require assembling a combo. Is there maybe a reason why 2 mana gets you a conditional 12/12 or a guaranteed 3/4-6/7

[CptHaddock]

12/12s cost 2 mana. 15/15s cost 3 mana. I don't think anyone is arguing that TNN is incorrectly costed...

The issue is that the answers are so narrow and the kill is so slow. Opponents have to sit and watch a game they may have been winning unwind 3 life at a time. No one complained about Progenitus from what I remember.

If you are ahead and your opponent cheats Prog into play and you lose, you weren't really ahead, you just didn't know you were behind at the time. That can be easier to accept than actually being ahead, then slowly losing too a fragile 3/1 that you can't answer despite having a deck full of answers to everything else in the format.

Well that is because Progenitus is good clean magic, 4 mana and a land for a 10/10 protection from everything.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Never mind

[Dice_Box]

TNN is as fair a card as Progentis is. Or less even. Its easier to cast, has less power and toughness, but the reason you want it is the same. They both basicly have the same text box, well other than you can equip one of them with a Sofi or some other shit.

I mean there is a reason Krosan Cloudscraper is not played over Progentis, it's not the power or toughness, it's that text box TNN shares. Anyone who argues that TNN is a fair card is looking at the situation wrong.

[Fox]

Point is that Marit Lage, Progenitus, Deadnought & Co are 2-card-combos and dead draws unless you also have the second piece needed.

Shit like TNN are no dead draws at 3 mana, do not need a second card to work, are evasive as fuck requiring specific answers and even pitch to FoW

Dreadnought is quite a bit more complex than Stifle + Dreadnought and the same can be said of Dark Depth (though it is a much simpler card). To expand upon what @SpatulaOfTheAges said, the point of decks that run these is to make them downplay the 2-card combo aspect and often times just to act as a failsafe (of tempo) while a gameplan of something more fundamentally broken is being achieved. If you look at R/G Lands, Loam is one card that can buyback the 2-card combo....so it's not really a 2-card-combo anymore when you've designed a deck to get them back at the same time. That's still not even really the point of that deck (the main plan is Strip Mine and win by default), Depths is just the most efficient way to recuperate tempo [i.e. win the game] when other plans could not be assembled or maintained.

The point of cards like Emrakul, Progenitus, and TNN is to be uninteractive. The recent throwing around of rates doesn't mean much without a peer group; uninteractives shouldn't be compared to efficient 1-card combos (Delver/Goyf/etc) shouldn't be compared to concept cards (2-card-combos you build around). Also what does any of this have to do with the point of the thread - and is TNN even seeing more play now than around the time Reid Duke won a GP with TurboTNN (aside from being a 2-of in Delver)? Is anyone seriously pinning the 23% meta representation to the existence of TNN?

[Lemnear]

Is anyone seriously pinning the 23% meta representation to the existence of TNN?

You mean if 23% of DRS + BlueShell are tied to the fact that most of the top notch threats as well as next to all (actual & virtual) cardadvantage and -quality engines are in UBx?

[Fox]

You mean if 23% of DRS + BlueShell are tied to the fact that most of the top notch threats as well as next to all (actual & virtual) cardadvantage and -quality engines are in UBx?

The premise is that Czech and Grixis Delver are more or less the same; I'm not seeing TNN as some Czech staple, but Czech is certainly responsible in large part for TNN in Delver right now. I mean you're seeing Marsh Casualties in Czech SBs in real time...just unsure how this TNN talk helps with disliking where legacy is right now b/c Grixis soup is 23%. Delver still gets housed by white cards, so uh....why are we talking about TNN? I get that TNN is a poorly designed card, I'm just not sure why it's in this conversation since we've been going on about if for the last page or so.

[Lemnear]

The premise is that Czech and Grixis Delver are more or less the same; I'm not seeing TNN as some Czech staple, but Czech is certainly responsible in large part for TNN in Delver right now. I mean you're seeing Marsh Casualties in Czech SBs in real time...just unsure how this TNN talk helps with disliking where legacy is right now b/c Grixis soup is 23%. Delver still gets housed by white cards, so uh....why are we talking about TNN? I get that TNN is a poorly designed card, I'm just not sure why it's in this conversation since we've been going on about if for the last page or so.

TNNs 1UU cost as a turn 2 mini-Progenitus which forces other decks to run dedicated removal is just an anecdote for underlining the fact that the DRS+BlueShell does not need to touch its core structure to run the formats primer threats/card advantage/card selection and push every other fair deck into a reactive position. We could talk Angler, Snapcaster or Leovold as well i guess

[apple713]

Data pulled from the MTGO Legacy Challenge of June 25th off of TCDecks.
This is my best attempt to make an 'average' deck from the lists in that pool of data.
I had to exclude the sideboard because it proved difficult to come of up with a consensus.

4C Control 2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest 3 Snapcaster Mage 4 Baleful Strix 4 Deathrite Shaman 1 Abrupt Decay 2 Fatal Push 2 Kolaghan's Command 3 Lightning Bolt 4 Brainstorm 3 Force of Will 1 Thoughtseize 1 Toxic Deluge 3 Hymn to Tourach 4 Ponder 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 1 Bayou 1 Island 1 Swamp 1 Tropical Island 1 Verdant Catacombs 1 Volcanic Island 2 Badlands 2 Bloodstained Mire 3 Scalding Tarn 3 Underground Sea 4 Polluted Delta

Grixis Pyromancer 1 True-Name Nemesis 3 Young Pyromancer 2 Gurmag Angler 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Delver of Secrets 1 Spell Pierce 1 Wild Slash 4 Brainstorm 4 Daze 4 Force of Will 4 Lightning Bolt 1 Cabal Therapy 4 Gitaxian Probe 4 Ponder 1 Bitterblossom 1 Tropical Island 2 Volcanic Island 3 Underground Sea 4 Polluted Delta 4 Scalding Tarn 4 Wasteland

The blue cards show the significant overlapping items. Doing a search in TCDecks for 'decks containing in maindeck' pulls up a list of only 4C Control and Grixis Pyromancer. If you cut DRS from the search, a few UR Burn lists are added. If you cut Lightning Bolt the list expands to include BUG Control, Food Chain, and Aluren. If you remove DRS and Lightning Bolt it includes just about every deck with blue in it...

Based on this information, 4C Control and Grixis Pyromancer are two separate decks with several overlapping cards (with the overlapping cards being fairly ubiquitous in the format).

I havent playe mtg in a while but using these two lists as points of reference I dont even understand how these decs could be considered the same or similar.

The list of differences far ouyweighs the list of similarities.

Differences include
General deck category ( aggro control combo) - although these are both aggro they are would be categorized as mid range vs tempo. This impacts the general play style and strategy approch to the deck.
The overwhelming majority of the cards are different.
Although there are some similarities, last time I check there was a saturation of like 200 unique cards that make up the majority of legacy decks. These are of course among them. Thats not to say they are like so many other decks in the format that use the same cards....
There is probably more cards in common between lands and dark depths decks but they are radically different Nd would never be considered the same.
How many black blue combo decks use some combination of brainstorm, ponder, dark ritual, lotus petal, underground sea, fetchlands, blah blah blah. No one is advocating that they are the same.

The only problem I see here is the lack of innovation at building decks that have an edge over these decks given the subtle similarities.

[Dice_Box]

I havent playe mtg in a while but using these two lists as points of reference I dont even understand how these decs could be considered the same or similar.

The list of differences far ouyweighs the list of similarities.

The similarly is not in how they are constructed but how you attack them when your playing a deck that is exploiting the joint weakness of unstable mana. DnT (A deck I have never played so take it as an assumption) is such a deck. When playing Lands I treat them basicly the same.

[Whitefaces]

You're not alone apple713. Honestly I question if the people claiming they're the same even play very much, Lemnear has said he's stopped yet remains one of the most opinionated people in these threads, it's telling.

Dice, sure you approach pile and delver similarly as Lands (which when you go into the details is quite wrong, imo). Obviously that's not true for other decks of the format though, they do exist!

[WashableWater1]

Are we forgetting that progentitus’ popularity has a lot to do with the numbers in the lower right? Its quite difficult to race a 10/10. Its not difficult to race a 3/1.

[Dice_Box]

I get that, I have never once said that. I have simply tried to answer the question that keeps getting ask.

Question. "LOL, fool, can't you see they are different?"
Answer. "Sometimes you react the same way to different things and they can blend into one."

Lead example, I know ANT and TES are different, I react to them almost exactly the same way. The fact that they are different in detail makes little difference in practice.

[Whitefaces]

I get that, I have never once said that. I have simply tried to answer the question that keeps getting ask.

Question. "LOL, fool, can't you see they are different?"
Answer. "Sometimes you react the same way to different things and they can blend into one."

Lead example, I know ANT and TES are different, I react to them almost exactly the same way. The fact that they are different in detail makes little difference in practice.

Try to look at it out of the context of Lands. An example to help is from Miracles, where you'll side out basic plains and Swords to Plowshares vs Pile, but they're the best cards in the deck vs Delver.

[Dice_Box]

Are we forgetting that progentitus’ popularity has a lot to do with the numbers in the lower right? Its quite difficult to race a 10/10. Its not difficult to race a 3/1.

It's not. Otherwise as I said, people would NO For something larger. You can pick any green thing you like. That text box is the most important part of that card. It being a 5/5 for 5 mana would still make it something people consider. Because the effect is just nuts. Sure, it would be less popular I will agree there, but it would still see play.

TNN is more powerful then the pet Hyrda because it has that magic line of text and it's easier to cast. It also blocks forever and buys you a ton of time. Your argument is about fair decks, TNN renders fair decks worthless when it hits the table. You need to do something unfair or lose.

Try to look at it out of the context of Lands. An example to help is from Miracles, where you'll side out basic plains and Swords to Plowshares vs Pile, but they're the best cards in the deck vs Delver.

I am! Fuck sakes I am. I am trying to answer the question all the people who view the deck in that context have. My point is not that the decks are not different, it never was. My point was to simply answer the question that was set out in page one that came from those who did not understand why someone would seem to think the decks are alike.

Who are the people I am talking to? Those playing against these decks with Force of will and Brainstorm. What am I saying? When your not playing those cards, you may find you start to feel like this:

All the heavy dual decks can start to feel the same from a Lands perspective after a while.

...

Not speaking for others, but I can see how they would feel alike.