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Thread: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

  1. #81

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    Birds and Poron, which Planeswalker do you think is the strongest in your builds. Im thinking about picking up some Vivian Reeds to try in the deck since it seems to be the most powerful.

  2. #82

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    I have cut GSZ for Natural Order with Ghalta MD

    Fetchlands are needed in order to grab Dryad for Natural Order and to shuffle after a bad Library

    We really need a better finisher here but the midrange-y control combo is much better imho

    Rhonas is the worst card of the deck

  3. #83

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    Yeah Rhonas is pretty bad. It makes sense as a one of in a build with GSZ but thatís about it.

    That list sounds interesting. Im assuming you are also playing a Progenitus along with a Ghalta as the primary all purpose NO target.

    Do you still play any planeswalkers or did you end up cutting them. In a non NO build, I think Vivian Reed is the only planeswalker good enough to maindeck. But in an NO build, Garuuk relentless is justifiable as it makes tons of NO targets and is okay by itself.

  4. #84

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Birds and Poron, which Planeswalker do you think is the strongest in your builds. Im thinking about picking up some Vivian Reeds to try in the deck since it seems to be the most powerful.
    First off, you folks were right that the planeswalkers were crummy in the Thorn/Lodestone build, and I have gone over to Trinispheres instead. In a lot of my testing, planeswalkers were just stuck in my hand.

    When I did get to use them, Karn was the most brutal; Garruk let me steal a game against manaless dredge (flipped Garruk's sac ability allowed me to exile the opponent's Bridges); and Vivien was a draw engine (never needed the Naturalize effect). I like the idea of Vivien since I have no other maindeck outs to an Ensnaring Bridge, but that never came up.

    If you could find another answer to artifacts and enchantments, and a semi-reliable way around Baleful Strix, it seems Karn would be the planeswalker with the most punch.

    EDIT: Poron, I like your GSZ -> NO idea. Let us know how it goes.

    EDIT2: Poron, my latest build is using both Chrome Mox and Mox Opal, and partly as a way to boost the count of cheap artifacts, I'm running 2 or 3 Defense Grid in the main (and other hate rocks in the sideboard to substitute in matchups where I don't need Grid). Running NO would definitely make Defense Grid better. Ignore that text. Defense Grid and Trinisphere don't synergize like I thought they would. Still looking that extra piece of lock redundancy after Chalice and Trini.

    EDIT3: Any tech against True-Name Nemesis? It keeps eating my planeswalkers.
    Last edited by BirdsOfParadise; 07-23-2018 at 05:00 PM.

  5. #85

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    So are you guys also playing Lodestone in Trinisphere lists. I am but it sounds like most people are cutting them when they switched back to Trinisphere instead of Thorn.

    How big do the Karn tokens usually get? I can see them being large in Lodestone Thorn lists but are they considerably smaller in Trinisphere Choke lists.

    I dont see the point of Garruk Relentless but I could see Vivian Reed being great. I play it in Nic Fit and its been solid there.

    Going to get my hands on some Karn to test them out myself. I'm optimistic.



    I think a list like this has the potential to be very strong.

    1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
    9 Forest
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide

    3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
    2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller

    4 Lodestone Golem
    3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Sylvan Library

    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Trinisphere
    1 Karn, Scion of Urza
    1 Wurmcoil Engine

    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    1 Dryad Arbor
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Prowling Serpoprad
    1 Rhonas the Indomitable
    1 Thrun, the Last Troll
    1 Verdourous Gearhulk

    I couldn't find it in my heart to cut GSZ. It serves so many versatile functions and even doubles as a Llanowar Elves when that's what you need. Vivien Reid can serve a similar role in the deck, however it's quite hard to cast in Lodestone builds.

    If we had a solid alternative to slot in at 4cc in place of Lodestone (Thrun perhaps?), a build that dumps GSZ for Planeswalkers looks very feasible.
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; 07-31-2018 at 07:47 AM.

  6. #86

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    I feel very good about the current maindeck. I want to turn the attention now to the sideboard.

    What are some autoincludes in the board?

    Prowling Serpoprad - A singleton GSZ target that prevents all of our creatures from getting countered. Leyline of Lifeforce can fill the same role but its not tutorable and it doesnt come with a 4/3 body attached.

    Choke/Tsunami - No explanation needed

    Sorcerous Spyglass - Shuts off Karakas, Planeswalkers, Wastelands, Dark Depths combo and countless other problem cards. Its so strong that I am maindecking a copy.

    Karakas - Helps against Show and Tell and Reanimator decks. Also bounces our creatures in response to removal and it even untaps Traxos and generates mana

    Ratchet Bomb - Gamebreaking against weenie decks and tokens, but an all around useful card. Itís probably the better of the various removal options we have access to such as Natureís Way, Dismember, Spatial Contortion, and Vivien Reid

    Additional graveyard hate - Ground Seal is likely the best bet. More Scavenging Ooze, Leyline of the Void, Faierie Macabre among others are all reasonable options.


    Some other mediocre options I can think of...

    Woodland Bellower - Probably more of a maindeck card than a sideboard card. Its basically a GSZ that comes with an additional 6/5 body attached. This might be the replacement to playing GSZ maindeck that people are looking for. It can grab any of the utility creatures (including Prowling Serpoprad, Ramunap Excavator and Runic Armasaur) and it also gets a cost reduction and trample from Goreclaw

    Compost - Hates on black

    Mindbreak Trap/Thorn of Amethyst - If we feel we need more hate against fast combo than what we already run

    Wurmcoil Engine - Really strong against any deck that doesnt play StP. Not convinced its needed however

    Ramunap Excavator - A one of tutorable answer to Wastelands

    Runic Armasaur - A one of tutorable answer to DnT/Maverick

    Obstinate Baloth - Tech versus Liliana and Hymn

    Carnage Tyrant - Tech versus control decks

    Wickerbough Elder/Acidic Slime/Bane of Progress - Tech versus artifact/enchantment heavy decks. Slime also hits Karakas and Dark Depths

    Krosan Grip - Uncounterable removal is always decent

  7. #87

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    I played a Traxos/planeswalker version with no GSZ and no Natural Order, using Chalice and Trinisphere as the lock pieces with Choke in the SB. I used 3 of each threat (Goreclaw, Surrak, Traxos, Karn, Garruk Relentless, Vivien). It was a build designed around the premise that every single spell was lockdown, beatdown, or removal + reinforcements.

    Every single card was good (don't knock Garruk Relentless, he was great), but the problem was consistency, just like with all Ancient Tomb decks. I'm sure it's partly my fault as a player, but even on Cockatrice I didn't really break 50-50 in the long haul. In my build, Goreclaw and Surrak were actually the weakest threats --- the games I won were the ones where I landed a lock piece followed by a planeswalker or Traxos. All the cards did their jobs, but the reason I kept losing was that I'd draw mana when I needed threats and threats when I needed mana, more often than would be the case if I had a consistency engine.

    So my advice would be not to cut GSZ. My feeling is that the build I explored was a bit of a dead end, and Red Stompy does the same stuff better (Rabblemaster is nuts). If there's a deck here that's capable of beating the field, my guess is that it uses GSZ or NO somehow.

    PS: In an artifact-hungry build (Mox Opal/Karn/Traxos), Tsabo's Web is kind of cool. I ran into a lot of Mishra's Factory, Rishadan Port, Karakas, and Thespian's Stage.

    PPS: How big were the Karn tokens? Again, in the artifact-hungry build, they'd often come into play as 4/4 and get to 7/7 no problem. If you're interested in running Ghalta, which I did, Karn is a huge enabler for that. I cast Ghalta for two mana several times; sometimes it was win-more but not always. Ghalta can also go on your Chrome Mox when it's in your opener. Garruk Relentless also made Ghalta easy to cast. Dang... now I want to play some more, but I kinda ran out of time for at least a few weeks. I'd probably keep trying with the build I said was a dead end... sigh.

  8. #88

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    I would love to see your list.

    50-50 versus top tier legacy decks is pretty good for a deck that just started development this month and has more optimization needed.

    I could see a Planeswalkers heavy version of the deck without Lodestone Golem doing well.

    I approached this deck similar to Nic Fit. Many of the best time tested versions utilize utility creatures in combination with GSZ. Though there are certainly planeswalker heavy nic fit lists that dont play GSZ and manage to do well.

    If not for the utility that GSZ and Lodestone offers, theres not much to differniate it from Dragon Stompy. This deck plays faster more aggressive threats but it loses out on being able to play Blood Moon. Choke is even more devastating against blue decks but theres enough nonblue decks in the meta that Choke is relegated to the sideboard.

    Its a damn shame there isnt a Magus of the Choke 2/2 Choke creature for 2G (akin to Magus of the Moon). That would make for an amazing GSZ target.

    The deck most definitely needs more card advantage engines. Thats whats so tempting about Karn, Vivien Reid and Woodland Bellower. Runic Armasaur offers this versus DnT and its a great GSZ target so Im tempted to maindeck it.

  9. #89

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    Sure, Captain Hammer --- here's my latest maindeck:

    [MANA]
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Tree of Tales
    4 Forest
    3 Mox Opal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide

    [LOCK]
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere

    [PROTECT]
    3 Tsabo's Web

    [BEAT]
    3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
    3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
    3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
    1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
    1 Wurmcoil Engine
    1 Ghalta, Primal Hunger

    [GRIND]
    1 Sylvan Library
    3 Karn, Scion of Urza
    3 Garruk Relentless
    3 Vivien Reid

    ***

    Tsabo's Web doesn't have to be there, but since it cycles and boosts artifact count (for Karn/Traxos/Opal) and messes with Port, Stage, and Karakas, it's been... not bad. I'd like some sort of mana denial or lock piece if not Web.

    Skysovereign is kinda just waiting to get cut, but I want to win a game or two with it. Maybe once it eats a Delver of Secrets I can cut it.

    Ghalta is pretty castable. Traxos, Goreclaw, Karn, and Garruk all can put it into very easy reach.

  10. #90

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    Nice. That list looks awesome.

    The inconsistent manabase is the only issue Im having with my current list. Other than the manabase issues, Ive been loving everything else. Im curious to know if your manabase proves any more consistent.

    Have you been happy with Mox Opal and Chrome Mox combo alongside only 4 Forests. Its a very explosive manabase, but also very light on lands.

    I feel like I would miss GSZ as I find myself using GSZ like a Llanowar Elf (by tutoring up Dryad Arbor turn one) quite often.

    I would be very tempted to cut a couple Vivien Reed along with Skysoverign and a Trinisphere for 4 Lodestone but that would probably mean replacing a Chrome Mox or two with Mox Opal.

  11. #91

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    The mana base has been fine, but I've faced a lot of combo and blue-based control, rather than D&T, delver, or lands (decks that could attack the mana base concertedly).

    ***

    Example game from logging in just now (same list as above):

    Mull to 6 on the play
    T1: Chalice --- gets Forced
    T2: Trinisphere --- gets Forced
    T3: No gas, cast Elvish Spirit Guide --- gets Diabolic Edicted (either this was loose, or they figured Edict would only ever hit the Spirit Guide, so might as well use it; this rationale is validated by the rest of the game)
    T4: Topdeck Trinisphere, it lands --- on their turn they Hymn, catching only a City of Traitors
    T5: Topdeck Vivien Reid, she lands; +1 Viv, find only a Forest --- on their turn they play Liliana, the Last Hope, and +1 on no creatures
    T6: Play Surrak (found using Vivien) --- on their turn, -2 Liliana and cast Baleful Strix
    T7: -3 Vivien on Strix, play Traxos (which stays tapped during the combat phase even though I could haste it), Surrak kills Liliana
    T8: Play Ghalta (found using Vivien), swing for 24

    Obviously everything lined well up this game. Just an example of how it works, when it works. Vivien ended the game by herself.

  12. #92

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    Thats great.

    I am really tempted to cut chrome mox from the deck. Its a horrible topdeck and I really hate pitching a card to it. It makes it so I end up with no cards in my hand by turn two way too often.

    Yes it lets you plop down a threat a turn earlier, but when that threat gets Forced, whats the point.

    Every other card in the deck is so powerful and works well with the other stuff.

    Replacing Chrome Mox with Mox Opal also means we dont have to keep up green count high and can safely replace ESG with Lotus Petal.

    This is what I had in mind (inspired by your list)...

    1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
    6 Forest
    4 Tree of Tales
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Mox Opal
    1 Elvish Spirit Guide

    4 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma - Gives all your guys pump, a cost reduction and trample aka Overrun on a stick
    2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller - Gives all your guys including itself haste

    4 Lodestone Golem - Because your Trini is getting FoWed or Decayed anyway, its good to have a backup that also beats
    4 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog - A vigilance 8/8 hasty trampler for 2 mana, why the hell not

    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Trinisphere
    2 Karn, Scion of Urza

    4 Green Sun's Zenith - It often provides exactly what you need, whenever you need it
    1 Dryad Arbor - Convert any GSZ into a Llanowar Elf
    1 Reclamation Sage - Destroy Target Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Rhonas the Indomitable - Use your four mana and GSZ to tutor out a 6/6 hasty trampling indestructible
    1 Thrun, the Last Troll - Untargetable by Karakas or Jace
    1 Thragtusk - Five extra life in the nick of time
    1 Verdurous Gearhulk - The weakest and most replacable card in the deck, only here as a large tutorable beater. Says a lot about a deck that the weakest threat is often enough a 9/9 hasty trampler for 3 mana.


    Sideboard:
    4 Choke
    3 Sorcerous Spyglass
    8 Other
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; 08-09-2018 at 03:45 PM.

  13. #93
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    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    Karakas - Helps against Show and Tell and Reanimator decks. Also bounces our creatures in response to removal and it even untaps Traxos and generates mana

    Can someone please explain how karakas Traxos untaps? It's a land so it isn't cast...

  14. #94

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    You're correct, Karakas doesn't untap Traxos. "Whenever you cast a historic spell, untap Traxos."

  15. #95

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    Questing Beast and Shifting Ceratops make me want to dust of this deck/strategy again.

  16. #96

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Questing Beast and Shifting Ceratops make me want to dust of this deck/strategy again.
    I was wondering about Once Upon a Time with green chalice decks. Helps you dig for a Tomb/City/ESG to get Chalice down on Turn 1. Maybe a better fit for something like Sylvan Plug though, where you can dig for Baloth in response to discard or something. Competes with Library, I guess is the main consideration...do you want a smoother T1/2 that is worse (but at least usable) in multiples or do you want something to stick around (and useless in multiples)?

  17. #97

  18. #98
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    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    Questing Beast is the real deal.

    As much as I like the GSZ toolbox, I think Thought-Knot Seer is too good and too synergistic not to play 4x. Some of those green creatures are less necessary maindeck.

    Lodestone Golem seems very strong too, though it slows down your own plays a lot (e.g. GSZ for 4-drop costs 6 mana) so I can see cutting it if Traxos is out.

  19. #99

    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Questing Beast is the real deal.

    As much as I like the GSZ toolbox, I think Thought-Knot Seer is too good and too synergistic not to play 4x. Some of those green creatures are less necessary maindeck.

    Lodestone Golem seems very strong too, though it slows down your own plays a lot (e.g. GSZ for 4-drop costs 6 mana) so I can see cutting it if Traxos is out.
    The main issue with TKS is that it requires a colorless mana source. This deck only plays 8 such sources. Once upon a time helps a little bit in this regard but it's still too inconsistent. With some changes to the manabase, accomodating TKS is certainly possible.

    Are there any good lands you can think of to run in place of some of the basic forests that can produce both G mana and Colorless mana?

  20. #100
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    Re: [Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

    The 2 most viable options I can think of are Hashep Oasis (better than regular painlands) and Grove of the Burnwillows.

    There are also filter lands (e.g. Flooded Grove) and slow lands (e.g. Mogg Hollows) but both seem bad.

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