G2 after sideboarding:
Opponent: Cabal Therapy
Me: Resolves
Opp.: Name Karn, Scion of Urza
Me: That is a fantastic idea!
Me: *reveal hand
Opponent: You don't even run it?
Opponent: *facepalm
I think his idea was pretty good. I was running a version with 4 Thorn, 4 Tangle Wire, 4 Chalice, and 4 Lodestone Golem. It's good to have something that's easy to cast and that can either draw cards or beat down. The tokens do get big enough for Goreclaw. I cut Rhonas pretty early because I faced too much removal to want a creature that needs another creature to be its buddy.
Karn is a cool idea (so was Wurmcoil). The problem is finding room for them.
What does your list look like Birds of Paradise?
[MANA]
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Forest
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
[LOCK]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
[LOCK & BEAT]
4 Lodestone Golem
[BEAT]
3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
[GRIND & MAKE BEATERS]
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
3 Garruk Relentless
3 Vivien Reid
SB:
4 Choke
11 ???
This is where I am after ~15-18 games (Bo1 and Bo3). It went about 50-50. The games that I won were nearly all won off the back of Lodestone, Chalice, Traxos, and Thorn. It's almost like the color of the deck doesn't matter, although I want to keep testing green. Initially I was more focused on creatures, but the controlling decks just picked me apart and never let the Goreclaw/Surrak synergies happen, so I shifted over to some more planeswalkers. I could really see Sylvan Library being good (even though I've avoided it for the sake of Traxos), and I want to test a version that uses both Chrome Mox and Mox Opal.
Thats a cool looking list.
Do you feel your list plays enough low cost permanents to get a significant advantage from Tangle Wire? Especially since it doesnt play Choke.
The planeswalkers all cost more under both lodestone and thorn (unlike Gearhulk for example) so I would be worried they would be uncastable too often. Plus they dont get a cost reduction from Goreclaw.
It looks like a more controllish build which is nice. I just feel that Dragon Stompy probably does the control route better. The advantage of Goreclaw Stompy is its aggression and sheer velocity. It plays lock piece early to disrupt when it can, but it pairs them up with creatures anyone of which is capable of winning in 2-3 turns.
So what makes it better than Eldrazi or Steel thenOriginally Posted by Captain Hammer
I can't you that because I don't know if it is.
But I did just think of what would happen if you curved Surrak into Skysovereign, Consul Flagship and it sounds pretty funny.
Lodestone, Thorn and Planeswalkers is totally nombo.
I agree you have to play them because this deck runs too much out of gas and has no consequent card advantage while red has better mana denial and Chandra for CA
We have better creatures and Viviene Reid and you don’t really need Blood Moon in current meta if you can drop a 8/8 trample on turn 3 which is solid against every possible non white deck in the format.
So: IMHO the route is the Planeswalkers way and that binds you to Trinisphere.
Trinisphere give sense back again to Natural Order and GSZ and that’s where green has an edge
I think I would play GSZ package with TSK to fight his counterspells
4 GSZ
1 Thrun
1 Elder
1 Dryad
1 Rhonas
1 Scattershot Archer (stupid Baleful Strix everywhere)
4 TSK
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Sylvan Library
2 Vivien Reid
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Karn, scion
2 Goreclaw
2 Traxos
2 Surrak
3 Gearhulk
4 ESG
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Forest
1 Okina
Traxos with Tangle Wire is a non-bo.
I think I like Atzocan Archer better than Scattershot Archer because it also deals with other utility creatures and blocks flipped delvers. Otherwise, Walking Ballista. Ballista is kind of sweet with Verdurous Gearhulk.
True indeed, just remember that Deathtouch kills also outside combat.
Good point. Walking Ballista is probably the best way to go about it. Puts verdurous gearhulks over the top.
It was already. 8/8 trampler tutorable for, typically, 1GG
Poron,
I remember you were trying to make TKS work. I dont think Mox Opal and Darksteel Citadel is the way to do it (the deck cant support either card).
However 4 Hashep Oasis may provide a key piece to making TKS possible. It can tap for colorless, green and also has a useful ability to boot.
I have already moved over steel lands now I’m On Planeswalkers and Library and it makes sense our creatures are so big that you need 2 to win i’s useless to have 30 in the deck
30 is too many I agree. But with all the discard, removal and countermagic in the format, going too low can be dangerous too.
The utility creatures that pair with GSZ are essentially spells, not just beaters.
Lodestone is a walking Thorn. Sage/Wickerbough is a disenchant. Ooze is a Relic of Progenitus. TKS is a thoughtseize as much as it is a creature. Eternal Witness is a Snapcaster Mage with fewer restrictions. Surrak serves as a kill card against opposing planeswalkers thanks to haste.
Goreclaw just synergizes with all of them by making them super cheap to cast and also functions like Overrun as a finisher by giving all your guys +1/+1 and trample.
Otherwise, I think the nonutility creatures (cards like Rhonas) can be cut from the list and replaced with Planeswalkers or Sylvan Library or additional disruption.
It’s useless to have so many threats and not drawing them
This deck needs more card advantage and more nonartifact nonlegendary creature.
DnT is everywhere and so is Karakas as well as Temur’s Ancient Grudge and Grixis’ Kolaghan’s Command
Thrun has been stellar up to now if you manage to dodge Diabolic Edict effects.
Natural Order can still be the way. You create a Wolf with Garruk and it becomes a Progenitus or a Thar or the Terastodon you need.
The real edge for green is Natural Order therefore Trinisphere and no Golem. Otherwise red is strictly superior: Fiery Confluence, Chandra and Moons are much stronger then Ooze or even Thrun.
We’d need a green Marit Lage to see this in top 8. Like lands
I've gotten in 25--30 games so far and this hasn't come up yet --- rather, Tangle Wire untaps Traxos in situations where something else (like Choke or GSZ) would have left Traxos tapped. I may have been lucky, but my guess is there is no issue. Tangle Wire is happy to tap Thorns, Chalices, itself, and maybe a land.
However, I'm not sure if the Thorn/Lodestone/Tangle Wire version is better than the Trinisphere version. I run the former since then you have a higher density of lock pieces, but the latter might be more crippling. If Trinisphere is the future, then Tangle Wire probably needs to get cut.
I've already dropped to 3 Tangle Wire to fit in a Sylvan Library.
Honestly a piece of hate is as good as the next. I would be playing
4 Chalice
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lodestone Golem
But that’s a Workshop deck and we haven’t it in Legacy.
I think I have tested the previous versions quite a lot.
Chalice Trinisphere Planeswalkers and Natural Order are the best version I found yet
The deck would be supergood if Emrakul or Griselbrand were green.
Lockpieces, Eldrazis-like creatures and then 4cc Emrakul
We have to wait for Wizard to print something really fat and green. Or at least a Haste Progenitus
Ghalta Primal Hunger is fat and green and tramples. You need a Surrak in play for it to have haste.
However the best thing about it is that it can easily be hardcast if you topdeck it. A single Goreclaw by itself makes it 5cc in the post combat main phase. Traxos by itself makes it 5cc all the time.
The worst thing about Progenitus is drawing and having no way to cast it.
However a NO package that includes Ghalta maindeck and maybe Terastadon, Elderscale Wurm and/or Hornet Queen in the board is very tempting since all of them can be hardcast when they end up in your hand.
Yes, if Ghalta had Shroud I would be playing it that way but once we resolve a 4cc sorcery speed spell which requires a sacrifice I need to win 90% of the times in maximum one more turn.
Gearhulk is great but Wurmcoil Engine is just as good, and the deck only has room for one giant stupid beater, so lets compare the two.
Gearhulk dies to most removal. Wurmcoil poops out two powerful guys when it dies to anything other than swords. This is a big pro for Wurmcoil. If your Gearhulk gets Abraded, its a big deal. If Wurmcoil gets Abraded, you still come out ahead.
Many of the recent builds replaced Wurmcoil with Gearhulk and Im wondering if this is why it now feels like our creatures are inadequate by themselves, because we are no longer playing one of the most resilient creatures we have access to.
Gearhulk hits for 8. Wurmcoil hits for 6 (or kills a creature) but also gains you 6 life so its a net 12 point life swing.
Gearhulk costs only 5 mana, but Wurmcoil doesnt require GG to play it which occasionally matters.
Both cards trigger Traxos, resist Karakas, and dont cost more under Lodestone or Thorn.
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