Is Goreclaw better than Duskwatch Recruiter//Krallenhorde Howler? Lower cmc, more value, better topdeck.
In general I wouldn't be too excited bringing in NO vs Sneak Show in the first place, too much countermagic.Originally Posted by Poron
Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.
I like NO targets that are also easily hardcastable if you draw them.
This is why I like Ghalta, Primal Hunger.
I like Elderscale Wurm for this same reason. Burn and lots of aggro decks have no out against it.
Hornet Queen is another solid NO target that the deck is easily capable of hardcasting, especially if you land a Goreclaw. 5 flying deathtouch dudes can take over most any board and can even bring down Emrakul with ease. I would board it in vs Show and Tell even without boarding in the Natural Orders.
I could see playing a Bane of Progress in the board only if affinity and metalworker decks show up in your meta. Otherwise, blowing up all your artifact creatures is too high a cost.
With so many easily castable game winning NO targets, im not sure progenitus is even needed. Cutting it and the fourth NO frees up 2 slots for Fairie Macabre to bring in against Reanimator, Dredge and Storm.
Yes NO is for non blue decks where Serpopard is for blue decks
I still think Blastoderm deserves to be tested.
6/6 trample shroud with Goreclaw is a very serious threat. It doesn’t untap Traxos and can’t be targeted by Surrak. Mmm
I still think Thrun is a card for this deck. 1x against Karakas MD and another one in SB
It just loses 1/1 to Blastoderm but gains Hexproof Surrak’s targetability and untaps Traxos
Totally agree, and this deck has some serious reasons to make that idea even more true (i.e Goreclaw)
Good idea Poron.
I like Thrun far more than Blastoderm. Fading 3 is a big con on a non haste non trampler .
A 1x Thrun maindeck and maybe a 1x Ezuri’s Brigade (just because he is so big) would be solid options.
Not sure how to make room for them. Maybe cut Rhonas, or Wurmcoil. Cutting a single Surrak is doable though giving all your guys haste speeds up the clock by a turn or two so that would be the last resort
Before adding Ezuri's Brigade, if you need a pile of stats in a deck with Traxos and GSZ, I would look into Verdurous Gearhulk.
Thats a solid suggestion.
It’s legendary so it feeds Traxos.
Even if they bounce it with Karakas, you can add 4 counters to Lodestone or any other non legendary creature every bounce.
Well, it actually isn't legendary, but it's an artifact, which makes it historic and thus able to untap Traxos nonetheless. :)
Edit: Speaking of technicalities, Verdurous Gearhulk cannot be imprinted on Chrome Mox, which is a slight anti-synergy.
Jesus how could have I missed it? Gearhulk is a freaking four of.
Triggers Traxos, resilient to Karakas and he is as big as Ezuri without being conditional.
That’s a 3 or 4 of. Maybe even 4.
I have been very happy with 1 Wall of Root as GSZ target. It can give mana and block and it’s a Dryad with haste
And 1 Worldspine Wurm is great as a NO target against Pox decks
Even though if we could find room for a Vegevine package I think that I would cut entirely the NO package
Also we play too many artifacts for Chrome. I was thinking about 4 Tree of Tales and Mox Opal or Mox Diamond and 1 Ranumap Exacavator as GSZ target. Excavator can also give us Wasteland package
Anyway, I think this deck has potential. It can Turn 1 Trinisohere and turn 2 Goreclaw into turn 3 Surrak/Gerhulk
We just need card advantage and Vengeviine can give it to us
Gearhulk is a great addition! 💪
Also, I have found Golem and Sphere to be a little redundant. I was thinking about playing Thorn of Amethist instead of Trinisphere to have a higher probability to have a hate piece on turn 1. With Goreclaw around I was actually considering Sphere of Resistance.
Current list
2 forest
3 mox opal
4 tree of tales
4 dark steel citadel
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chalice
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 TSK
4 GSZ
4 Golem
3 Hulk
3 Traxos
3 Goreclaw
2 Surrak
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun
1 Boreal Druid
1 Wickerbough Elder
If only TSK was an artifact. Notice we have 6 GG cards in total. That’s how I support the citadels for Mox Opal and resilience to Wasteland
With mox and citadel with a sol land in hand you can virtually play your whole deck
The card I would have wished to play he most is Wurmcoil but the only way we have a hope against SnT or Sneak Attack is TSK. I think we should find place for the 4th
I have add 1 Excavator in SB and removed the NO package. Hulk and Traxos are already big enough and 3 Hulk with 2 Thrun are Karakas proof enough.
Additionally Can someone consider a 4 Vengevine package? That card has the card advantage to make this pile of stat a possible threath to every non white deck
Lastly, Garruk Relentless is a card for this deck. I don’t know if main or SB and against whom, but it’s definitely a card for this deck
Our SB needs 4 Warping Wail
It gets Terminus Show and Tell every reanimator spells occasional Hymn and sinkhole and surely Thoughtseize
It is very good against black and Miracle and we desperately need a way to deal with the opponent
3 Choke
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Warping Wail
4 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Excavator
1 TSK
Last edited by Poron; 07-18-2018 at 11:14 AM.
Hi Poron, good point on Chrome Mox. Once the deck becomes oriented around Lodestone Golem and Traxos, Scourge of Kroog, you start needing a lot of artifacts and Chrome Mox gets weaker. How has Mox Opal been working?
You're right about the lack of synergy between Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem. Thorn of Amethyst is also something I put in my draft of the list. For additional disruption, have you considered Tangle Wire? Trinisphere doesn't like being tapped, but once you take it out for Thorn of Amethyst, both the Thorn and Chalice of the Void will happily tap for Tangle Wire.
Along the metalcraft route, there is also Jewelled Amulet and Welding Jar. Both can accept being tapped for Trinisphere. (For the Amulet, it's only a synergy if you were going to tap everything anyway; if so, then you use mana to put a charge counter on the Amulet in response to the Wire, let everything get tapped by Wire, and your next turn has +1 mana.)
Just some thoughts. I played Mox Opal stompy in different colors a few years ago and honestly it was pretty hard to make it work. Traxos is a big payoff though.
Last edited by BirdsOfParadise; 07-18-2018 at 02:06 PM.
It is rare not to be in Metalcraft with 30 artifacts the real double edged knife is TSK that with just 12 colorless sources can be a total pain.
I had to add 4 GSZ and Boreal Druid to give the deck a virtual stability but that is super subpar
I have totally considered Tangle Wire. Reactive Island decks scoop to Choke + Tangle Wire but you should play Wire MD at that point.
I really don’t know what to cut.
Your list looks tight Poron. No room to cut anything. I love the Thorn + Lodestone idea. I dont think you need Tangle Wire.
How consistent has the list been for you?
Thats the main concern I have looking at the build. You dont play very many reliable green sources.
Darksteel Citadel only making 1 colorless mana is a big minus.
Plus Tree of Tales makes your opponents Abrades, and any other artifact destruction they play into sinkholes and make it very easy for your opponent to cut you off from green completely. They also turn into mountains under a moon so I would imagine you could find yourself holding a bunch of green cards and no way to cast them oftenI dont think Mox Opal and TKS are worth the additional instability to your manabase that they necessitate but I havent tried your list so I could be wrong.
If you go that route, I dont think you can support any GG cc cards. So I would be inclined to cut to a 1 of Surrak and 1 of Gearhulk. Even in my list, I dislike the GG cards and I play 5 more green sources and 8 more forests.
I do think Chalice + Thorn + Lodestone can win games on their own so I will test replacing Trini and Choke with Thorn.
Currently in my list I replaced both Wurmcoils wirh Gearhulks. I think 1-2 Gearhulk is enough. 5 mana is a lot, it cant be imprinted and its only slightly more powerful than Traxos but has a significantly higher casting requirement.
My favorite play is a Turn One Goreclaw followed by a turn 2 Traxos followed by Surrak to untap it and give it haste 13 damage on turn 2. Its very easily achievable. You can replace the Surrak with Lodestone or Rhonas or any other creature and still win turn 3 with ease.
But the safer play is always Chalice or Thorn/Trini turn one followed by Lodestone turn two.
This is my current list...
10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
2 Verduran Gearhulk
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thrun the Last Troll
The only two changes Im considering for the list are possibly cutting a Chrome Mox and/or a Rhonas to squeeze in another utility creature or two.
The trouble is, I cant decide which two utility cards from below are most worthy of inclusion.
Runic is great vs DnT
Ramunap Excavator/Wall of Roots like Poron mentioned gives the deck resiliency to wastelands
Goyf is great cheap beater you can tutor up or cast thru Wastelands
Prowling Serpoprad is great vs counterspells and synergizesperfectly with the deck
Kitchen Finks/Baloth/Thragtusk are great vs burn and the latter two synergize perfectly with the deck
Ezuri’s Brigade is a cheaper one of Gearhulk in many situations and synergizes perfectly with the deck
Wickerbough Elder is great all around utility and synergies perfectly with the deck
Hierarch slots in place of the 4th Chrome Mox well
Tireless Tracker/Sylvan Library/Duskwatch Recruiter are cards others mentioned that makes sure we draw lots of threats
All of those are great options to fill those two free slots and its difficult to pick between them.
I think the best bet is to make room for as many of those one ofs as possible in our test builds to figure out which are the strongest.
To do this I will cut 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Rhonas, 1 Surrak, 1 Traxos, 1 Gearhulk and 1 Thorn from the above list temporarily.
That lets us test six of the above 1 of utility creatures so that we can see which two we end up Zenithing for the most often.
Last edited by Captain Hammer; 07-18-2018 at 11:15 PM.
I realized that I almost never end up Zenithing Eternal Witness so that will be a flex slot as well.
Here is the test build I propose to figure out which three creatures we end up Zenithing for the most often.
10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Thrun the Last Troll
1 Verduran Gearhulk
//7 Temporary Test Slots (Pick 3)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Runic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Prowling Serpoprad
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Baloth
The 3 best of the 7 test slots above will replace the Eternal Witness, the 4th Chrome Mox and 2nd Rhonas in my build in the post above this one.
I really dislike the friction of gsz and goreclaw. You're not playing to your strengths that way. I tried looking into cards that can play to the strengths of goreclaw but i think youve already captured the important ones. Is sylvan library not. Abetter route to take than gsz?
Pure card advantage is always the best thing in Grindy matchups anyway GSZ is ssynergic with Trinisphere but not with Golem Thorn and Sphere
So is Natural Order
The point is either we play Trinisphere and the GSZ/NO package or we go the full Sphere way (Golem and 8 balls) without any noncreature spell at all.
Honestly if you manage in double Sphering him it is better than any Trinisphere.
Just consider what an Armageddon can do to a control deck when you have a Golem and a Sphere on the field. Impossible situation but green has many possibilities like Choke Tangle Wire Wasteland
Anyway just testing can tell
I would love a new playable sol Land though
Those are fair points. It might make sense to explore a build with 4 chalice, 4 mox, 4 thorn, 1 sylvan library and everything else is a creature as poron suggested.
Personally, I think GSZ is worth playing. It does so many things. It ramps out a second land (arbor) on turn one for one mana. It lets you get a land (arbor) without saccing city of traitors.
It lets you blow up a food chain or another critical artifact/enchantment
It grabs ooze vs graveyard decks for only 3 mana etc.
It tutors up a hasty Surrak to kill a Planeswalker or win the game that turn for 5 mana.
Replacing it means we would need to play 2-3 maindeck Wickerbough Elder and a couple of Ooze or Deathgorge Scavenger maindeck but the trade off might well be worth it.
Perhaps something like this...
11 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
3 Verduran Gearhulk
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sylvan Library
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Wickerbough Elder
2 Thrun the Last Troll
Is worth testing.
Wurmcoil suffers no hate, like a panda
Play 2
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