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Thread: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

  1. #341
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Ten slots at 5 mana is not good. I lost multiple games playing Bobs + Forces due to blind flips, and I wasn't even playing Street Wraiths. Once you decide to push for card advantage with Dark Confidant instead of velocity with Street Wraith you really need to evaluate your mana curve. Even Daze becomes suspect when you're drawing extra lands but can't play them out. If you want Dark Confidant I think you need to make a couple of fundamental changes: cut the street wraiths, take a hard look at your mana curve, and look into playing at least 1-2 Cling to Dust in your maindeck to help manage your life total.
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  2. #342

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Alternatives to cutting wraith:

    Glint-Sleeve Siphoner draws cards much slower but lets you play wraiths and Gurmag angler. You can also draw many more cards before you die. The deck also sorely lacks evasion without delver.

    Tasigur, the golden fang you are already very weak against plow (and thus karakas) decks. Extra grind power, speed, and dodges decay.

  3. #343

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    I once reanimated my opponent's Bob at FNM. Flipped Gurmag at 7 life. I won't be playing Bob, it lacks the controlled lifeloss this deck seems to demand.

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  4. #344
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Without another source of energy, Siphoner needs to survive an attack and untap a 2nd time to draw a card, which is significantly slower than Bob. Then you need 2 more attacks to draw a 2nd time the following turn. The evasion is nice, but it's really awful on tempo before you see much payoff.

    Is 2 Ethereal Forager better than playing Tasigur?

  5. #345

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Mindblade Render is almost exactly the same as DHA... but it needs to connect. Gets pseudo haste in multiples.

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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Without another source of energy, Siphoner needs to survive an attack and untap a 2nd time to draw a card, which is significantly slower than Bob. Then you need 2 more attacks to draw a 2nd time the following turn. The evasion is nice, but it's really awful on tempo before you see much payoff.

    Is 2 Ethereal Forager better than playing Tasigur?
    Failwhale is bad....like to the point that you should delve 3-4 lands on the first one to begin to have a chance to untap with it. Tasigur is technically better since the value is unaffected by summoning sickness at 5 mana [which Shadow can't really reach]. Take the win against Goyf with Gurmag and use the rest of the yard for Cling.

  7. #347
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    I don't think even Tasigur is worth playing. I think the only alternative threat we could consider is Scourge of the Skyclaves, but I haven't seen it do a whole lot since it was printed.

    I think the grindy cards you want out of the sideboard are Liliana, the Last Hope, Narset, Parter of Veils, Bitterblossom, and even Search for Azcanta. The aforementioned Infernal Contract is also pretty decent. I'd love to try Search for Azcanta, because it actually *adds* a land to the deck. It isn't ideal with the high activation cost, but it could possibly be good. I'm also eyeballing Collective Brutality again because it should have some relevance against the threats being played again.

    Here's my sideboard that I think will be a good general approach:

    1x Liliana, the Last Hope
    1x Narset, Parter of Veils
    2x Plague Engineer
    2x Hymn to Tourach
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Nihil Spellbomb
    1x Engineered Explosives
    2x Stubborn Denial
    2x Bitterblossom


    I play 2x Brazen Borrower maindeck, so that's why it isn't in the sideboard.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 03-09-2021 at 07:13 AM.
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  8. #348
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    The problem with Scourge is it looks at both players, so it doesn't fit as well into the Shadow plan if you haven't been able to turn a Shadow or Delver sideways yet. It's win-more. Scourge might work in Red Death, the RB Shadow deck with burn cards.

    Lili, Narset and Brutality all look good out of the board.

    Is Castle Locthwain unplayable in the SB? Maybe it's just a bad version of Azcanta. But it's uncounterable, dodges Decay, and gives mana right away. The decks you need it against probably don't run Wasteland, so it could be difficult for them to interact with this card.

  9. #349
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Castle Locthwain is a good idea, one I hadn't picked up on yet. I was mostly looking for enchantments, which in general are problematic for most opponents in legacy outside of specifically Abrupt Decay. The life loss is attractive in Castle Locthwain, but if we are sandbagging cards in hand against mid-range opponents then it could possibly hurt too much. I suppose we could cut a Street Wraith post-board to squeeze in the extra land.

    What I like about SfA is that it will always be doing something valuable; smoothing top decks, feeding gurmag/reanimate, and if it flips in a long game and we can activate it (Wasteland actually makes mana at this point) then it could really pressure mid-range opponents. Sylvan Library is the closest analogy, and SFA is definitely *not* Sylvan Library. I would like to avoid the green splash to keep mana solid.
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  10. #350

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Wrt to some of the discussion here:
    - Glint Sleeve Siphoner smoked me in standard a bunch of times, but not being able to play it with 1+ energy ready to go from Aether Hub or Attune makes it much worse, and with no other energy source in the deck (Harnessed Lightning etc) you are only drawing an extra card once every 2 turns. If it was just 1B 2/1 Menace Ophidian that dinged you for 1 when you drew a card with it then I think it would probably be good or at least worth trying

    Mindblade Render is ~almost~ that card. No evasion is a little bit disappointing as well as only having 1 power, but 3 toughness is nice vs e.g. Pfire and Plague Engineer. I think this is at least worth considering in the "Bob slot". Compared to Bob, not getting an extra card in your upkeep is slightly worse (because you can't e.g. play an extra removal spell before attacking), it does actually have to connect, and "draw a card" is worse than "bob flip into hand" because of Hullbreacher/Narset, but the lifeloss is more manageable.

    Tasigur is too embarrassing vs Karakas and too hard to activate (like in the matchups where you want that activated ability you really don't want it coming attached to a thing that dies to plow)

    Agree with FTW comment about scourge not making sense in UB (you need more turn 1 threats and/or burn spells)

    Castle Lockthwain is an okay idea the problem is that spending effectively 4mana per turn is a lot for a delver deck. You also have to be a bit careful about whether the playstyle of the card makes sense with your overall gameplan (for example if you just want to throw all your threats into your opponent's defense and then use Castle to reload, it can be good, but if you want to play 1 Delver and then sit back with a full hand of daze/brainstorm/fow etc then it can cost too much life to use effectively. Overall I don't think the idea is that bad but compared to how the card sees play in e.g. Mono Black Aggro in Pioneer the opportunity cost of putting it in the deck is a lot higher (you can just play 4 maindeck in the normal manabase in Pioneer and it's cool, compared to considering it for a relatively-more-valuable sb slot). If it's going to be a card you are boarding in vs slow matchups to become more grindy then you have to start considering if it's a better use of slot than Infernal Contract or Lili Last Hope etc which I feel like it probably isn't. Azcanta has mainly similar problem (spending all your mana to draw 1 card per turn on turn 4+ is probably not the right way to beat grindy decks in legacy when you are playing delver)

    Collective brutality is good if you expect to play against exactly Burn. Against other creature decks it's not good enough at killing things (sprite dragon goyf whale shadow etc all too large) you never want to risk escalating it into a daze, against DNT don't want to try to spend 2 mana for disfigure. Against combo/control don't want to spend 2 mana for bad duress. Maybe it's decent vs elves? Where -2-2 and discard sorcery is actually not bad for 2 mana. But yeah the utility offered is not particularly worthwhile I don't think

  11. #351
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Yeah, Brutality's main use would be for burn/RUG Delver to provide a slight cushion for life total and to provide reach. Providing reach is likely the best mode of Brutality. You summarized it succinctly: it does several things, but none of them well. I don't mind the 2-mana Duress against combo decks at all, especially followed by a t1 Delver and having a Daze in hand. The other option is Hymn to Tourach, which is what I am currently playing in the sideboard, but Brutality seems like it could be a decent role-player. I like it against Moon Stompy, too, especially if you are dedicated to a basic Swamp (I am for sure, there is historically a lot of Moon Stompy in my local metagame, whenever that gets going again...) It kills a lot of Goblins and can swing races, which is what Brutality really needs to do. It's all theory-crafting honestly, it could still be too narrow for legacy.
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  12. #352
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Is anyone messing around with Stifle in their Shadow build? I am hesitant to include it because it tends to be good in newer metagames and then fade away as it gets closer to solved. I couldn't even get a full set into the deck, but I ended up trimming a Thoughtseize, Ponder, and the maindeck Brazen Borrower to get 3 copies in. None of those cuts make me feel very good, but especially the Ponder. The last time I played this in paper I absolutely loved the maindeck Borrower too, to the point that I even played 2 at one point.

    TL, DR: are shadow players squeezing in Stifle, and if so, how?
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  13. #353

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Is anyone messing around with Stifle in their Shadow build? I am hesitant to include it because it tends to be good in newer metagames and then fade away as it gets closer to solved. I couldn't even get a full set into the deck, but I ended up trimming a Thoughtseize, Ponder, and the maindeck Brazen Borrower to get 3 copies in. None of those cuts make me feel very good, but especially the Ponder. The last time I played this in paper I absolutely loved the maindeck Borrower too, to the point that I even played 2 at one point.

    TL, DR: are shadow players squeezing in Stifle, and if so, how?
    Truehero has been playing a list like this (just off the top of my head, I can't remember the SB)

    13 UB source
    4 Wasteland

    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 FoW
    4 Daze
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Stifle
    2 Reanimate
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Snuff Out
    2 Drown In the Loch

    4 Wraith
    4 Shadow
    3 Angler

    Idk if I would play exactly this list with 3 Angler or only 13 coloured sources but:
    1. Everything I have said in the past about not liking Delver in this deck is still true
    2. Usually the replacement for Delver has been some kind of Hymn card to help grind (plus JVP for the synergy or whatever)
    3. Hymn is still pretty bad right now I think because Uro is still a popular card
    4. So trying to be really lean and "go under" with stifle like this definitely has some appeal at the moment

  14. #354
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Ehh, I don't like getting under people without pressure, it just seems to give people time to grind back into the game. I would play a different deck before I cut a land and Delvers.
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  15. #355

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Ehh, I don't like getting under people without pressure, it just seems to give people time to grind back into the game. I would play a different deck before I cut a land and Delvers.
    Being able to go wide might help this deck against grindier matchups. As such, I wonder if Sedgemoor Witch could function in this deck. May test it as a 1-2 of in the spice slot.

  16. #356

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Ehh, I don't like getting under people without pressure, it just seems to give people time to grind back into the game. I would play a different deck before I cut a land and Delvers.
    Well on one hand if you don't have delver providing a clock then your opponent might have time to draw more lands to stabilize, but if you do have Stifle instead of Delver then that's hopefully the tool you're using to prevent your opp from getting those 3-4 land for Uro and turning the corner on you

    Because of how this deck doesn't have reach from burnspells and how uro turns the corner so hard I would much rather try to assemble the plan of Stifle + Shadow or Stifle + Angler rather than Delver + Shadow or Delver + Angler, but you basically already know my position on this

    Being able to go wide might help this deck against grindier matchups. As such, I wonder if Sedgemoor Witch could function in this deck. May test it as a 1-2 of in the spice slot.
    It doesn't necessarily play well with the sequence of curving thoughtseize into it and the way the deck is built playing cards like Snuff Outs instead of Bolts also means that you can't be as flexible with making tokens as you might want to be. There also aren't as many card draw spells as like Miracles or Whitefaces Esper with Mentor and Predict / One Mind or UR decks with Pyromancer having a bunch of Preordains. If it wasn't for the meta consideration of Plague Engineer I would say this is just a worse TNN (and even then Engineer is pretty good against this because you just name Pest and it cleans up all the tokens)

  17. #357
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Being able to go wide might help this deck against grindier matchups. As such, I wonder if Sedgemoor Witch could function in this deck. May test it as a 1-2 of in the spice slot.
    How is this better than Bitterblossom? BB doesn't die to Bolt, is much harder to remove as an enchantment, costs 1 mana less, provides evasion, and requires no further investment.
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