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Thread: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

  1. #261

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I would probably use By Force, it's more flexible. If Reanimate was still tech in the deck, maybe Ingot Chewer would be an option. I've mostly dropped Reanimate in favor of maindeck Brazen Borrower. I also don't think something like Manic Vandal would be bad. Being a body that can chump a Rabblemaster seems like it wouldn't be irrelevant.

    EDIT: Obosh doesn't cut off Borrower does it? The converted cost is in the upper right, so I think its ok, but not totally sure.
    I am pretty sure that you can't play Borrower as Petty Theft also has a casting cost, and it is even. Split cards' mana costs are located somewhere other than the upper right-hand corner of the card, and either side of Fire//Ice can be Spell Snare'd. Not a judge, though.

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  2. #262
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    It sounds like Obosh is much worse without Dark Ritual. UB Shadow doesn't hit 5 mana easily... which probably came up when you never put Obosh on the stack. If you didn't miss Daze though then the opportunity cost is low.

    Yeah my cuts were basically 2 Reanimate, 2 Borrower. The slots could be tweaked. 4th Street Wraith is probably worth it, maybe over a land. If a non-Wasteland land can afford to go, that seems best. Wasteland seems very strong in this Lurrus/Karakas meta with greedy manabases.

    The red splash is probably win-more with Bolt. Ingot Chewer seems weak. By Force and Shattering Spree answer Chalice, but Steady Progress could too and also has synergy with SB walkers. Brazen Borrower is a temporary fix but they will just recast it.

    You should be able to play Borrower and use Petty Theft. The companion restriction is about the CMC of the card in your library (3), not the CMC of the spell on the stack (3 or 2). Keruga decks (cmc 3 or more) can use Borrower and cast Petty Theft.

  3. #263

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    I am pretty sure that you can't play Borrower as Petty Theft also has a casting cost, and it is even. Split cards' mana costs are located somewhere other than the upper right-hand corner of the card, and either side of Fire//Ice can be Spell Snare'd. Not a judge, though.

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    You can play Brazen Borrower. "An adventurer card is a creature card in every zone except the stack, as well as while on the stack if not cast as an Adventure. Ignore its alternative characteristics in those cases."

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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    @FTW 100% agree that Dark Ritual is non-negotiable with Obosh. Not buying the argument for the 3rd Angler, though. You don't need extra Ritual payoffs, because the 5-drop is guaranteed and because hardcasting Wraith and the 2 Gurmags already adds 6 high-cost options within the structure of the deck as is.

    Re: outs for Chalice: Brazen Borrowers are fine, but I really like Rushing River here. Since we have to wait an extra turn to remove a Chalice, the chance to bounce a second hate piece is pretty useful. Red splash definitely not needed.

    With easier access to BB / BBB via Ritual while dropping Daze, we're also incentivized to run the safer mana base of Island, Swamp, USea (along 3 Watery Graves).

    Last point: Without Daze, I think we could shave a Wasteland and find space for 1-2 Spell Snares as additional hard counters. Otherwise, I personally still like Pierce over Stubby D.

  5. #265

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Thanks. I had looked but couldn't find an answer.

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  6. #266
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    Not buying the argument for the 3rd Angler, though. You don't need extra Ritual payoffs, because the 5-drop is guaranteed and because hardcasting Wraith and the 2 Gurmags already adds 6 high-cost options within the structure of the deck as is.
    Good point. The 3rd Angler is probably unnecessary. Its main value would be turning on Stubborn Denial (which Obosh and Wraith can't), but if you run Snare or Pierce instead then there really is no justification.

    Re Chalice: Is bounce good enough? It works for combo because they plan to go off all in one turn. A deck like this will EOT bounce Chalice, untap and cast some stuff, then they play Chalice again. Is a temporary answer good enough?

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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Is a temporary answer good enough?
    I mean, of all Delver decks, DS at least has the most formidable threats, so hopefully you can drop something big enough to win, or (cantrip into) Force or Thoughtseize. You wouldn't wanna bounce without a decent follow-up play in the first place.

    This is obviously meta dependent, but a 3cmc proliferate spell just strikes me as super narrow as long as Bridge, Trinisphere, Blood Moon, Painter stuff, PWs, etc. are all out there too. (Didn't Shadow already go through this debate when Throne of Geth saw some play for a hot minute back in 2018?)

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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    @FTW 100% agree that Dark Ritual is non-negotiable with Obosh. Not buying the argument for the 3rd Angler, though. You don't need extra Ritual payoffs, because the 5-drop is guaranteed and because hardcasting Wraith and the 2 Gurmags already adds 6 high-cost options within the structure of the deck as is.

    Re: outs for Chalice: Brazen Borrowers are fine, but I really like Rushing River here. Since we have to wait an extra turn to remove a Chalice, the chance to bounce a second hate piece is pretty useful. Red splash definitely not needed.

    With easier access to BB / BBB via Ritual while dropping Daze, we're also incentivized to run the safer mana base of Island, Swamp, USea (along 3 Watery Graves).

    Last point: Without Daze, I think we could shave a Wasteland and find space for 1-2 Spell Snares as additional hard counters. Otherwise, I personally still like Pierce over Stubby D.
    Rushing River is a cool idea, especially by utilizing Wasteland as your land sacrifice where it would be otherwise dead (Snow decks, etc.) I don't think its nearly as good as Borrower though. If companions have taught us anything its that having an extra creature available outside the game, whenever you have the convenience of playing it, is very good.

    @FTW: I think bounce is good enough in the Moon Stompy matchup. Bouncing Chalice for a turn puts it back into their hand where this deck can deal with it the easiest, either with Thoughtseize or a counterspell. Opening up a couple cantrips to shape the game after a bounce gives really good odds of stabilizing as well. I've been of the mindset that I am always playing a basic Island and Swamp in Shadow to help offset imbalanced Chalice matchups. Add to that additional free counters (Force of Negation) and Borrower (bounce it, then discard/counter it) and you're getting closer to an even matchup. It isn't ideal, but that matchup won't ever be ideal.

    @Tobitzki: I tend to agree on Steady Progress. If this deck had a stronger emphasis on PW's then it would be synergy and card advantage alongside hosing. Without that it's just super narrow. I'd rather just play more powerful, broadly applicable sideboard cards. The Throne of Geth tech happened at the pro-Tour as well, which means they weren't going into a blind metagame. They were focused on a narrower range of decks, so that was really a metagame call.
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Rushing River is a cool idea, especially by utilizing Wasteland as your land sacrifice where it would be otherwise dead (Snow decks, etc.) I don't think its nearly as good as Borrower though. If companions have taught us anything its that having an extra creature available outside the game, whenever you have the convenience of playing it, is very good.
    You're totally right about Brazen Bouncer > Rushing River. I like RR also as a double tempo play in a racing situation, but ultimately it might be nice as a spicy one-of only if we want more than 2 bounce effects. It's probably correct to run 2 BBs first.

    And so for me it was the other way around: As soon as I saw Lurrus I thought of Brazen Boi, thinking how insanely busted a guaranteed, pre-Adventured 3-drop with repeat super-Unearth would be.

  10. #270

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Well, now we all know this was secretly the reason why Borrower was playable in the first place. Both halves of the card are Pauper material at best, but getting a free card is just that powerful in Magic. I wish WotC had known that before Ikoria...

  11. #271
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    So Lurrus and Zirda are out...does this mean Obosh is more playable now?
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  12. #272

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Well, I'm still not sure about a 5 drop creature in a deck that otherwise tries everything it can to never have 5 lands in play. We have the lowest mana curve in Legacy with every standard maindeck card costing either zero or 1 total mana to cast...

    Given how unlikeiy it is for us to cast it I don't think it's quite worth losing Daze and all of the somewhat efficient answers to Chalice of the Void in the sideboard. Everything else I think is easily replaceable and wouldn't be worth more than having a guaranteed 5-drop to cast every now and then. What do people play over Daze in Obosh builds? Pierce/Snare/Stubborn?

    I've also seen/heard about Dark Ritual builds but I don't like that idea personally. Dark Ritual is practically a blank piece of cardboard outside of casting Obosh. And Obosh is just a bad card by itself, because it's only good when you already have big Shadows getting through anyway. It's not like a 6/5 for 5 is was any good in Legacy. It creates a deck with two different plans that don't really synergize with each other. Half a tempo deck with 4 dead cards, half a ramp into Obosh deck that's not even good without the first half, and most importantly Obosh doesn't solve any of the issues big Shadows usually have. They don't have issues with too low power... they have issues getting through Strix/Coatl/TNN/Pyromancer and Oko. Maybe builds with Berserk could make better use of Obosh, not sure.

    No matter how you slice it, this deck loses to anything Snowko throws at it when it resolves, so I think the only niche it still has is being fast, tempo-based and super mana efficient to go under more powerful things. I've been playing a list which is more focused on leveraging Shadow as a card and being as streamlined and efficient as possible, with Thought Scours over Delvers (otherwise pretty standard). I think it's better than the standard Delver builds right now.

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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    Well, I'm still not sure about a 5 drop creature in a deck that otherwise tries everything it can to never have 5 lands in play. We have the lowest mana curve in Legacy with every standard maindeck card costing either zero or 1 total mana to cast...

    Given how unlikeiy it is for us to cast it I don't think it's quite worth losing Daze and all of the somewhat efficient answers to Chalice of the Void in the sideboard. Everything else I think is easily replaceable and wouldn't be worth more than having a guaranteed 5-drop to cast every now and then. What do people play over Daze in Obosh builds? Pierce/Snare/Stubborn?

    I've also seen/heard about Dark Ritual builds but I don't like that idea personally. Dark Ritual is practically a blank piece of cardboard outside of casting Obosh. And Obosh is just a bad card by itself, because it's only good when you already have big Shadows getting through anyway. It's not like a 6/5 for 5 is was any good in Legacy. It creates a deck with two different plans that don't really synergize with each other. Half a tempo deck with 4 dead cards, half a ramp into Obosh deck that's not even good without the first half, and most importantly Obosh doesn't solve any of the issues big Shadows usually have. They don't have issues with too low power... they have issues getting through Strix/Coatl/TNN/Pyromancer and Oko. Maybe builds with Berserk could make better use of Obosh, not sure.

    No matter how you slice it, this deck loses to anything Snowko throws at it when it resolves, so I think the only niche it still has is being fast, tempo-based and super mana efficient to go under more powerful things. I've been playing a list which is more focused on leveraging Shadow as a card and being as streamlined and efficient as possible, with Thought Scours over Delvers (otherwise pretty standard). I think it's better than the standard Delver builds right now.
    Are you playing more Gurmags because of Scour? Maindeck Borrowers?
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    Dark Ritual is practically a blank piece of cardboard outside of casting Obosh.
    Not true. (see my above post): Fist of all, the statement doesn't make much sense, because Obosh is guaranteed, and second: we have Gurmags and Street Wraiths to cast within the established shell and can bring in 3cmc bombs like Lily, Plague Engineer, Ashiok and your choice of Phyrexian Arena or Infernal Contract postboard. As a matter of fact, Dark Ritual makes more reliable T2 Anglers than Thought Scour. A 6/5 that's Bolt-, Decay-, and Push-proof is nothing to sneeze at in Legacy.

    The big loss here is really just Daze. And the nightmare MU remains Tundra/Swords, but I really don't see how going down threats and adding a bad cantrip helps there. As Dead of Winter currently sees more play than Terminus, I'd rather add big beaters hoping to overwhelm their 1-for-1 removal before they can turn DoW into a blowout.

    To me the question is still: Without Daze do we move towards midrange (Oko) or aggro (more threats, e.g. Porcelain Legionnaire, Knight of Ebon Legion, etc.).

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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    If you’re playing Dark Rit, the best cheese is turn 1 Last Hope and rush for ult.

  16. #276

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    Not true. (see my above post): Fist of all, the statement doesn't make much sense, because Obosh is guaranteed, and second: we have Gurmags and Street Wraiths to cast within the established shell and can bring in 3cmc bombs like Lily, Plague Engineer, Ashiok and your choice of Phyrexian Arena or Infernal Contract postboard. As a matter of fact, Dark Ritual makes more reliable T2 Anglers than Thought Scour. A 6/5 that's Bolt-, Decay-, and Push-proof is nothing to sneeze at in Legacy.

    The big loss here is really just Daze. And the nightmare MU remains Tundra/Swords, but I really don't see how going down threats and adding a bad cantrip helps there. As Dead of Winter currently sees more play than Terminus, I'd rather add big beaters hoping to overwhelm their 1-for-1 removal before they can turn DoW into a blowout.

    To me the question is still: Without Daze do we move towards midrange (Oko) or aggro (more threats, e.g. Porcelain Legionnaire, Knight of Ebon Legion, etc.).
    Thought Scour is as fast as DRit at rushing Anglers. DRit is +2 mana, Scour is +2 cards in yard. Given that the card you draw off it could be the zero mana spell you needed in addition to cast Angler it is actually true to say that Scour is faster than DRit at that.

    I'm also not running Scour because it's a great cantrip, it's mostly there to find Shadows faster, which is the only card in this deck that makes it Legacy playable. If you mill it you can Reanimate it. I cut the Delvers for them because of how bad Delver is in this deck. Scour has definitely been better than Delver. I think you need to play a turn 1 play in Delver's place once you cut it, because Daze gets too much worse when you don't have a turn 1 play.

    I get that you can cast 3-drops on turn 1 with DRit. That's a fine play for Pox, which plays Hymns and several other ways to get card advantage after that turn 1 CA loss. In a tempo deck a one-time +2 mana isn't worth being a full card down, especially when you also play 5 Forces that 2-for-1 yourself. If that was even remotedly good you'd see people play Rite of Flames in UR Delver too, but you don't.

    Don't get me wrong, cutting threats does indeed not help the Tundra matchup. In all honesty, and I've said that before, when you currently choose to register a Shadow deck in Legacy you're hoping to dodge Snowko or you lose. Shadow decks cannot beat it under normal circumstances and pretending to get enough percentage points with any alteration of the Shadow plan is wishful thinking. Their entire deck is super anti-Shadow (Coatl, Plow, Oko) and your deck is geared towards making Shadow good and mediocre at anything else. It just can't work.

    Daze is hands down one of the best cards in UB Shadow. The more aggressive and low curve you are the better it gets of course, but in the shells that maximize it it's irreplaceable.

    I think if you're trying to make DRit into Obosh work you should probably cut blue and play a Pox-style list with Shadows, Anglers and Obosh as its win conditions. I'm not expecting UB Obosh Shadow to get any noticeable results, and so far I think there have been none.

  17. #277
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    Thought Scour is as fast as DRit at rushing Anglers. DRit is +2 mana, Scour is +2 cards in yard. Given that the card you draw off it could be the zero mana spell you needed in addition to cast Angler it is actually true to say that Scour is faster than DRit at that.

    I'm also not running Scour because it's a great cantrip, it's mostly there to find Shadows faster, which is the only card in this deck that makes it Legacy playable. If you mill it you can Reanimate it. I cut the Delvers for them because of how bad Delver is in this deck. Scour has definitely been better than Delver. I think you need to play a turn 1 play in Delver's place once you cut it, because Daze gets too much worse when you don't have a turn 1 play.

    I get that you can cast 3-drops on turn 1 with DRit. That's a fine play for Pox, which plays Hymns and several other ways to get card advantage after that turn 1 CA loss. In a tempo deck a one-time +2 mana isn't worth being a full card down, especially when you also play 5 Forces that 2-for-1 yourself. If that was even remotedly good you'd see people play Rite of Flames in UR Delver too, but you don't.

    Don't get me wrong, cutting threats does indeed not help the Tundra matchup. In all honesty, and I've said that before, when you currently choose to register a Shadow deck in Legacy you're hoping to dodge Snowko or you lose. Shadow decks cannot beat it under normal circumstances and pretending to get enough percentage points with any alteration of the Shadow plan is wishful thinking. Their entire deck is super anti-Shadow (Coatl, Plow, Oko) and your deck is geared towards making Shadow good and mediocre at anything else. It just can't work.

    Daze is hands down one of the best cards in UB Shadow. The more aggressive and low curve you are the better it gets of course, but in the shells that maximize it it's irreplaceable.

    I think if you're trying to make DRit into Obosh work you should probably cut blue and play a Pox-style list with Shadows, Anglers and Obosh as its win conditions. I'm not expecting UB Obosh Shadow to get any noticeable results, and so far I think there have been none.
    I follow the logic of playing Scour, so does that mean you could support 4 Gurmag Anglers?
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  18. #278

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    In slower games I do get to cast the second Angler pretty often, though it's still a very bad card to draw in multiples early. I haven't tried 4 yet, though 3 is perfectly doable, so 4 shouldn't be impossible either outside of the small percentage of cases where you draw the third and never get to brainstorm it away.

    My current list is very good against anything that doesn't have Plows or Decays, you could say I'm trying to leverage the deck's strengths instead of trying to patch up weaknesses which I think can't really be fixed without an immense investment of main and side slots. I'm trying to play the TSeize/Hymn/Daze/FoW/Wasteland game to hopefully run the opp out of cards before I drop a Shadow and swing twice for the win while they topdeck more lands than me. That's not reliable, though neither is diluting your deck with more expensive midrange cards that end up losing to their midrange cards anyway.

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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    Thought Scour is as fast as DRit at rushing Anglers. DRit is +2 mana, Scour is +2 cards in yard. Given that the card you draw off it could be the zero mana spell you needed in addition to cast Angler it is actually true to say that Scour is faster than DRit at that.
    This whole argument might be obsolete after Monday's potential Companion-nerf, but just for the record: Your only line here is T1 Scour into T2 Angler with exactly 2 fetches (leaving out free spells for the sake of argument). Otherwise TS equals +3 delve cards but -1mana while DR is +1card +2mana. For Ritualing out a T2 Angler, we can T1 Thought Seize/Ponder +1 Fetch, or T1 Delver +2 Fetches (also not counting Forces or Wraiths). I'm no Frank Karsten, but it seems at the very least a wash, just that we're actually doing something useful T1.

    Regarding lack of results: Well, no version of Shadow has been putting up results since Ikoria, as far as I know, but the way meta has evolved since Cat & Fox came and went, this is hardly proof that Obosh isn't worth dabbling around with. The fact is noone takes Shadow into an online meta full of Snow. My point about Dark Ritual stands: It's never dead because Companion, there are 6-9 additional Ritual payoffs in the shell as is, plus 3-4 sideboard bombs, and the inherent card disadvantage is offset by ... Companion.

    Where I'm not arguing is Daze; perhaps it really is the indispensable MVP here.

  20. #280

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    This whole argument might be obsolete after Monday's potential Companion-nerf, but just for the record: Your only line here is T1 Scour into T2 Angler with exactly 2 fetches (leaving out free spells for the sake of argument). Otherwise TS equals +3 delve cards but -1mana while DR is +1card +2mana. For Ritualing out a T2 Angler, we can T1 Thought Seize/Ponder +1 Fetch, or T1 Delver +2 Fetches (also not counting Forces or Wraiths). I'm no Frank Karsten, but it seems at the very least a wash, just that we're actually doing something useful T1.

    Regarding lack of results: Well, no version of Shadow has been putting up results since Ikoria, as far as I know, but the way meta has evolved since Cat & Fox came and went, this is hardly proof that Obosh isn't worth dabbling around with. The fact is noone takes Shadow into an online meta full of Snow. My point about Dark Ritual stands: It's never dead because Companion, there are 6-9 additional Ritual payoffs in the shell as is, plus 3-4 sideboard bombs, and the inherent card disadvantage is offset by ... Companion.

    Where I'm not arguing is Daze; perhaps it really is the indispensable MVP here.
    I did the math wrong, it's true that DRit is essentially +1 on Thought Scour. However, you don't need to waste your turn 1 on Scour necessarily. You can turn 1 fetch into Ponder/TSeize (2 in yard), turn 2 fetch into Scour (6 in yard) to cast Angler anyway. It doesn't work with Delver, but I'm not playing that anyway. And it does require 2 fetches, but I play 9-10, so it's often doable. Especially when Force/Daze/Wraith/Snuff work their way into the equation.

    Classic CFB UB Shadow has put up a few results on MTGO since Ikoria, though very few. As I said, the deck is terrible against the number 1 deck in the format and thus just not optimal to play at the moment. I play it mainly for fun, but wouldn't register it for any tournaments.

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