Page 11 of 16 FirstFirst ... 789101112131415 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 220 of 314

Thread: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

  1. #201
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,795

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Well, this is still a lot of fun to learn & play.

    I'm trying to fill out the last 3 cards of my sideboard. I had 2x Blue Elemental Blast and a 2nd Edict, but I think a different 1-mana counterspell would be better now that w6 is gone. Edict was for the prevalence of depths decks, which have showed up much less frequently. Dispel, Spell Pierce, and Flusterstorm come to mind immediately. I am leaning towards Dispel because it can counter Veil of Summer at parity and does much the same as Pyroblast (on the stack.)

    Current:
    2x ratchet bomb
    2x brazen borrower
    2x surgical extraction
    1x nihil spellbomb
    1x liliana, the last hope
    1x toxic deluge
    2x bitterblossom
    1x diabolic edict
    3x open
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  2. #202

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Mystical Dispute is probably the best one mana counter spell we have access to. Apart from killing a resolved Delver and dodging Veil it does most of what Pyroblast does. Dispel is just too narrow.

    Also, I would definitely never leave the house without some Plague Engineers. That card is broken.

  3. #203
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,795

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    Mystical Dispute is probably the best one mana counter spell we have access to. Apart from killing a resolved Delver and dodging Veil it does most of what Pyroblast does. Dispel is just too narrow.

    Also, I would definitely never leave the house without some Plague Engineers. That card is broken.
    How does Mystical Dispute dodge Veil? It would cost the full 3 to attempt to counter it. I can see how it can deal with quite a few other cards (Delver, Jace, Force) but it seems pretty bad against Veil/Pyroblast in particular.

    Plague Engineer, if I can get them by Feb 8th, will take 2 slots in my SB. I think I'll keep 1 copy of Blue Elemental Blast in there, so that's my sideboard.

    I'm also thinking of dropping to 3 Wasteland, it just doesn't pull the weight it needs to all the time. I was just going to slot in fetch #9, but I'm looking at Castle Locthwain or Creeping Tar Pit. Tar Pit has it's obvious drawbacks, both are really only good in the late game (which is where I want them to be good.) I like the reach of Tar Pit but the card draw of Lochthwain, paired with the lifeloss, could support the Shadow strategy. Mystic Sanctuary seems fairly unreliable to actually do any real work, and I fetch basic Swamp quite often.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  4. #204
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,795

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Has anyone tried Hex Parasite as anti-PW tech in their sideboard? It takes off counters while pumping it up to attack/kill them. It's another 1-drop threat I'm considering to fight the grindy control decks that are PW-heavy. The other alternative is to play something like Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker, but I was also thinking it would be a threat that can also be played under blood moon and can kill Chalice (If I can get it underneath it, or bounce it to get a window.) I understand that Ratchet Bomb/Throne of Geth are both better specifically against the Moon Stompy variants but Hex Parasite would be good if it resolves against Ux decks that rely on PW's.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  5. #205

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Has anyone tried Hex Parasite as anti-PW tech in their sideboard? It takes off counters while pumping it up to attack/kill them. It's another 1-drop threat I'm considering to fight the grindy control decks that are PW-heavy. The other alternative is to play something like Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker, but I was also thinking it would be a threat that can also be played under blood moon and can kill Chalice (If I can get it underneath it, or bounce it to get a window.) I understand that Ratchet Bomb/Throne of Geth are both better specifically against the Moon Stompy variants but Hex Parasite would be good if it resolves against Ux decks that rely on PW's.
    Hex Parasite has been played in modern esper builds, primarily as a way to tank your life that can be tutored with Ranger-Captain of Eos. I canít imagine it is very effective against the Bant planeswalker decks or chalice because of the mana requirement to actually, say, kill an Oko and because, as you mention, it is stopped by chalice on 1.

  6. #206
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,795

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by aedrew View Post
    Hex Parasite has been played in modern esper builds, primarily as a way to tank your life that can be tutored with Ranger-Captain of Eos. I canít imagine it is very effective against the Bant planeswalker decks or chalice because of the mana requirement to actually, say, kill an Oko and because, as you mention, it is stopped by chalice on 1.
    Would you sideboard Pithing Needle or Revoker? I've tried To the Slaughter in the past, but it's a little steep at 3 mana and can be blanked by having just a Snapcaster/Coatl/Strix on board. It might be possible to turn on Delerium, but without Baubles it would likely be pretty tough.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  7. #207

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Would you sideboard Pithing Needle or Revoker? I've tried To the Slaughter in the past, but it's a little steep at 3 mana and can be blanked by having just a Snapcaster/Coatl/Strix on board. It might be possible to turn on Delerium, but without Baubles it would likely be pretty tough.
    Needle. It is also able to name lands which gives it the nod in the board instead of revoker 3 or 4.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  8. #208

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Would you sideboard Pithing Needle or Revoker? I've tried To the Slaughter in the past, but it's a little steep at 3 mana and can be blanked by having just a Snapcaster/Coatl/Strix on board. It might be possible to turn on Delerium, but without Baubles it would likely be pretty tough.
    I think needle and revoker are fine in the matchup but it will still be an uphill battle, so hopefully they help you in other matchups too. I donít think To the Slaughter is worth it for the reasons you mention and because it is weak to Veil of Summer.

    I canít say I have been happy with any sideboard plan for this matchup. I tried Noxious Grasp, which was ok but not great. Mystical Dispute is quite good. I am starting to think that no amount of sideboard cards will flip the matchup in our favor, but you can steal some wins by pressuring them fast and hard. I think the deck either needs to make more fundamental changes or just write this one off.

  9. #209
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,795

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by aedrew View Post
    I think needle and revoker are fine in the matchup but it will still be an uphill battle, so hopefully they help you in other matchups too. I donít think To the Slaughter is worth it for the reasons you mention and because it is weak to Veil of Summer.

    I canít say I have been happy with any sideboard plan for this matchup. I tried Noxious Grasp, which was ok but not great. Mystical Dispute is quite good. I am starting to think that no amount of sideboard cards will flip the matchup in our favor, but you can steal some wins by pressuring them fast and hard. I think the deck either needs to make more fundamental changes or just write this one off.
    Good to know, thanks. I don't expect a lot of it in my local metagame, which is why I'm still fairly comfortable piloting the deck. I think I'm going to just sideboard the 2 Bitterblossoms and cross my fingers. Historically the metagame in Maine has been lighter on blue than almost anywhere else. We see a lot of Moon Stompy, Lands, Depths, Reanimator, Burn, Dredge, Storm, Death and Taxes, and other fringe decks like Goblns. I even played against Enchantress twice in one 5 round tournament! There is a good amount of blue-based decks like UW Stoneblade and Grixis Delver, just in fewer numbers than most areas. While Veil of Summer does show up in Storm decks now I feel that the overall gameplan of Shadow is favored against them with discard, counters, and a fast clock. There may be 1-2 other decks (4c Pile or Bant Miracles) that show up with Veil of Summer, but I don't expect to see a lot of it. It's lower number of blue decks that makes me want to use Dispel: it's a counterspell with applications across a lot of non-blue matchups but still lets me efficiently win stacks. I also think Brazen Borrower is a card that has really helped tip the scales for some matchups. It's so tempo-positive and even provides additional threats in matchups where increasing threat density helps.

    I almost always write up a sideboard guide before tournaments, and the 2/8 1K coming up is no exception. I have one spot in the maindeck and a few slots in the sideboard that I've been agonizing over, but otherwise is I'm locked in. If it isn't too annoying to the forum, I'll post it later.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  10. #210
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,795

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Testing my list out tonight at the LGS, hope it goes well. Here is my list:


    4x Deathís Shadow
    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Street Wraith
    2x Gurmag Angler
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder
    4x Force of Will
    1x Force of Negation
    4x Daze
    2x Dismember
    2x Fatal Push
    4x Thoughtseize
    2x Reanimate
    1x Hymn to Tourach
    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Misty Rainforest
    1x Marsh Flats
    4x Watery Grave
    1x Island
    1x Swamp
    4x Wasteland

    Sideboard
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Nihil Spellbomb
    2x Bitterblossom
    1x Diabolic Edict
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    1x Liliana, the Last Hope
    1x Toxic Deluge
    2x Brazen Borrower
    1x Dispel
    1x Blue Elemental Blast
    1x Darkblast


    Deluge/Darkblast will become Plague Engineers if I can pick them up.

    Sideboard guide:
    Moon Stompy: +2 Borrower, +2 RBomb, +1 BEB, +1 Deluge, -4 Thoughtseize, -1 Reanimate, -1 Daze
    Bant Miracles: +2 Blossom, +1 Liliana, +1 Dispel, OTD -4 Daze, OTP -1 Push, -1 FoN, -2 Daze
    Grixis Delver: +2 Blossom, +1 BEB, +1 Deluge, +1 Dispel, -1 FoN, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Reanimate, -2 Daze
    TES: +1 BEB, +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 Dispel, -2 Push, -2 Dismember, -1 Reanimate
    ANT: +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 Dispel, -2 Push, -2 Dismember
    Burn: +1 BEB, +2 RBomb, +1 Dispel, -4 Thoughtseize
    Depths: +2 Borrower, +2 Blossom, +1 Edict, +2 Surgical, -1 Hymn, -2 Push, -4 Daze
    Sneak/Show: +2 Surgical, +2 Borrower, +1 Edict, +1 Dispel, +1 BEB, -2 Dismember, -2 Push, -3 Daze
    Reanimator: +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 Edict, +2 Borrower, -1 Hymn, -2 Dismember, -2 Push, -1 SW
    Dredge: +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 RBomb, +1 Deluge, -1 Hymn, -4 Thoughtseize,
    Stoneblade: +1 Deluge, +1 Edict, +2 Borrower, +2 Bitterblossom, -4 Daze, -1 FoN, -1 Force of Will
    UR Delver: same as Grixis Delver
    D&T: +1 Deluge, +1 Liliana, +1 Darkblast, +2 RBomb, -1 FoN, -4 Daze
    Eldrazi: +2 RBomb, +2 Borrower, -4 Thoughtseize
    Goblins: +1 Deluge, +1 Liliana, +1 Darkblast, -1 FoN, -2 Daze
    Elves: same as Goblins
    Lands: +1 Edict, +2 Borrower, +1 BEB, +2 Blossom, -2 Push, -3 Thoughtzeize, -1 Hymn
    Aggro Loam: +2 RBomb, +2 Bitterblossom, +1 BEB, -4 Thoughtseize, -1 Reanimate
    BUG Delver: same as Grixis/UR except bring in Edict instead of BEB
    Infect: +1 Deluge, +1 Liliana, +1 Dispel, +1 Darkblast, -1 FoN, -1 Hymn, -1 Reanimate, -1 Wraith

    Sorry for spamming so much in a post! I would love feedback.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  11. #211
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2019
    Location

    Berlin | Canberra | NYC
    Posts

    99

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I would love feedback.
    pretty classic-looking list. couple of thoughts & nitpicks: not sure if I would run a Hymn (even just one) along basic Island; consider Spell Pierce or Stubby D? And do you reckon that 2 Bitterblossoms is enough of a plan against all the Snoko/Control soups? That Dispel could be a Flusterstorm and I'd try to find a slot for a Mystical Dispute somewhere. Finally: I don't know your particular meta, but elsewhere there don't seem to be a lot of black creatures running around right now (Strixes are now Snakes and Delver's Gurmags are Bedlams), so why not run 2 Snuff Outs?

    I think if I chose to run DS atm, I'd go with a light green splash for 2 Decays, 1 Library, +2 Veils out of the board and would borrow that Painful Truths / Mystic Sanctuary tech from recent Grixis Delver decks against control.

    Good luck tonight!

  12. #212
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2019
    Location

    Berlin | Canberra | NYC
    Posts

    99

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    sorry, didn't see your comment about the local meta. If Miracles & blue decks in general are not that big an issue, you're probably good to go.

  13. #213

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Agree on the basic island. I think after playing this deck for a while, you start to see how bad the basics really are in this deck. It was advertised as a potential budget deck when it came out in 2018 for not needing Seas but honestly I think that's super misleading. The selling point to this deck is that you can be really aggressive, way more than other Delver variants. But there's a lot of trade-offs to this: starting at effectively 10 life in races, not being able to sit back and trade cards 1 for 1 at mana advantage like Canadian Thresh can, often being forced to play disruption in your first main phase rather than getting to choose when you play it, not being able to drop an Angler or Shadow at nearly any time like you can with Goyf. These are all serious downsides so you really need to be able to play to that extra pressure. But if you're playing a basic Island it totally screws your pressure and sequencing. Sea gives you access to things like turn 2 Thoughtseize > Shadow / Angler while still being able to cantrip. I could see a reasonable argument for maybe the single Swamp but even then... ehh. You start to really notice how much the inability to jam your spells screws your tempo advantage, and Ponder / Brainstorm / Daze are still a big part of that. And this affects every single MU. I think the disadvantages to playing basics was severely downplayed when this deck came out. I personally would rather take the 5 U/B fetch targets (3 Grave, 2 Sea) and just try to deal with mana hate via tighter play.
    Last edited by Maximus; 01-23-2020 at 09:50 PM.

  14. #214
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,795

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Ended up just jamming games against friends, not enough to fire an 8 man event. I played against 2 d&t players and against a maverick stew splashing blue for oko and 3feri. Not a good sample really.

    Here's what I did: nabbed 2 plague engineers for the board, maindecked a borrower over the hymn, and I cut to 3 wastelands and put in a 9th fetch.

    The basics were good all night in test games. Without hymn I didn't need bb for anything other than liliana.

    Deck is super fun, but absurdly weak to a StP. I got 2-for-1-ed several times that way.

    Still learning a ton on how to play a blue tempo deck. It's rewarding to be improving as a player, but man I have a long ways to go before I master this deck.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  15. #215
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,795

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Debating a Mindbreak Trap and a Ravenous Trap in my sideboard for the new hotness of Underworld Breach. I think it would be favorable already given Shadow is a Thoughtseize/Force/Daze deck but I don't think having 1-2 sideboard slots that play well against Storm/Breach would be a bad idea.

    I think I'll see some dredge on 2/8 as well, so I think Ravenous Trap could be a good metagame call.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  16. #216
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    1,713

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Planar Void is a fairly nasty card if youíre trying to stick it to Underworld Breach (though youíd be wanting Gurmags to come out). Probably not worth considering however, unless youíre also running Surgical and expect storm decks as well. These triggers create priority windows which interrupt PiF into Tutor and Tutor into the card it found. These triggers also stop LED into Echo. Bonus points b/c this card played pretty nicely with DRS back when he was legal.

  17. #217
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,795

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    It's a cool idea, but I don't want to sacrifice my early development. I think Mindbreak Trap/Ravenous Trap could be just as effective as blowouts to support the Surgicals/Spellbomb I'm using as gravehate. Having 4/5 of those specific hate options being essentially 'free' means I can still Delver, Ponder, Brainstorm, Wasteland, Thoughtseize, or Daze early and not lose to opposing answers. Having all of my gravehate being one-sided means I don't have to compromise on Gurmags, which are pretty important.

    I think at the very least I will put in the Ravenous Trap. I have 3 grave hates currently, having a 4th seems smart. Mindbreak Trap would take the place of either Dispel or Blue Elemental Blast. BEB has relevance beyond Breach by countering/killing Burning Wish, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Chandra ToD, Sneak Attack, Pyroblast, KCommand, Young Peezy, Lightning Bolt, Abrade, and Burn.dec. Dispel has relevance as a counter to key protection/sideboard answers like Silence, Orim's Chant, and Veil of Summer while also countering some amount of spells out of almost every deck.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  18. #218
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    1,713

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    The thing about Rav Trap is you still die to Silence effects. You should either be wanting to have on-board yard hate (Crypt/Void/Leyline/Spellbomb/Cage) or game actions (Macabre or the spiciest Emmy SB shuffle trick ever).

    Edit: Damping Sphere would also be a reasonable card, with further application against Storm, Elves, and Post. This puts a pretty swift stop to opening up with cards like Silence and Veil.
    Last edited by Fox; 02-02-2020 at 05:05 PM.

  19. #219
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,795

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Yeah, I think it needs to be permanent-based hate. Fighting on the stack is ok to fight their disruption (Silence, Orim's Chant, Spell Pierce) but fighting on the stack against their graveyard is a losing proposition unless it's Surgical Extraction on LED. I'm leaving the trap cards (see what I did there?) home. If I feel the need for another grave hate in the board then it will be another Spellbomb or Tormod's Crypt.

    I am also debating Spell Snare maindeck over the Spell Pierce I added. It's a hard counter that's good against a lot of problematic cards: Underworld Breach, Chalice@1 (on the play), Stoneforge Mystic, Sylvan Library, and Snapcaster Mage. It also hits a lot of other metagame bullshit that is guaranteed to show up that doesn't need Spell Snare specifically to answer but it's very efficient to do so: Tarmogoyf, Hymn to Tourach, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Young Pyromancer.

    Spell Pierce was to have extra options to fight on the stack against PW's. I think it's ok to lean a little heavier on Thoughtsieze and Forces for PW's.

    So sideboard looks like this:

    2x Plague Engineer
    1x Brazen Borrower
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Nihil Spellbomb
    1x Darkblast
    1x Liliana, the Last Hope
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    1x Blue Elemental Blast
    1x Diabolic Edict
    2x Bitterblossom
    1x Open


    Open slot could be: Mystical Dispute, Dispel, Spell Pierce, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Damping Sphere, Hymn to Tourach, 2nd Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, or anything else someone suggests

    EDIT: I have a higher than average amount of Lands players in the New England metagame, debating 1-2 Winter Orbs.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 02-03-2020 at 08:44 AM.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  20. #220

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    After HJKaiser introduced the SB plan of Painful Truths + Mystic Sanctuary in Grixis Delver I wanted to try the same thing here with Infernal Contract, which is like the turbocharged Painful Truths for UB decks

    4 Shadow
    4 Gargoyle
    4 Wraith

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    2 Stubborn Denial
    2 Dismember
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Preordain

    4 Wasteland
    8 Blue Fetchlands
    2 Sea
    4 Grave

    SB

    2 Infernal Contract
    2 Liliana the Last Hope
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Force of Negation
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    1 Liliana's Triumph
    1 (Null Rod / Triumph #2 / Something)

    I played 4 post-sb games against 4c Miracles today and the package of contract + Lili + Sanctuary seems very potent.
    I was worried that without Reveler / Dreadhorde / YP etc as threats that accumulate resources it would be too hard to fight through 4C Miracles but contract gives an extra card compared to painful truths and (very importantly) the deck has this additional resilient threat in the form of Liliana.
    A lot of Miracles players have cut AK for Coatl now which seriously limits their ability to grind, and Lili +1 can easily clean up any Coatl/Snapcaster for free.
    Mostly they board out forces for stuff like Veil or Pyroblast so it's very hard for them to stop Contract from resolving at which point you fill your hand with countermagic/discard
    At that point all you need to do is keep Oko off the table (Not too hard with Daze/FoW/Stubbo/Negation/Discard etc after you have drawn 4) and then winning seems pretty straightforward

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)