Page 4 of 21 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 411

Thread: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

  1. #61

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    In the discord chat for Death's shadow, the consensus has been a splash in another color is generally considered a tertiary color (e.g BUG death's shadow,) rather than a splash. There are other benefits to running bug, such as access to sylvan library for card advantage and berserk to close out games.

    Generally from what I've gathered, the standard green prescence is something like:
    1 Sylvan Library
    2 Berserk
    SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

    Going for green does however make your manabase less consistent, so I would consider that when contemplating the additional color.

  2. #62

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. No Face View Post
    In the discord chat for Death's shadow, the consensus has been a splash in another color is generally considered a tertiary color (e.g BUG death's shadow,) rather than a splash. There are other benefits to running bug, such as access to sylvan library for card advantage and berserk to close out games.

    Generally from what I've gathered, the standard green prescence is something like:
    1 Sylvan Library
    2 Berserk
    SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

    Going for green does however make your manabase less consistent, so I would consider that when contemplating the additional color.
    Yes, i understand splashing green not only for decays, but library is a sideboard (mainly) option for grind games which has a strong opponents in a face of Bitterblossom and Lili the last Hope. Berserk... well i have tested that card and it has not exсited me. As a singlton berserk too random (yes, even with best cantripts in mtg history) and usually (at least while my testing) it was a garbage in my hand. Using more than 2 copies? I dont know - it is better just play Infect. My question about decay and splasing can be reformulated in the following way - are we soo afraid about loosing to resolved chalice that we use chalice hate in a maindeck and in this way green mana (splash).
    Talking about less comfortable mana base in 3 colour version - you are totaly right. I feel myself very non-confident when piloting not a super solid UB Shadow but a BUG (for example) variant.

  3. #63

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    The reason to splash is not Decay or Berserk, but Library. We have alternatives for the former two if need be without the splash, even if they are slightly inferior. For Library, there is no substitute--it allows you find threats and answers regularly and continuously to overload the answers of a control deck, and most importantly it turns your opponent's StPs into Recalls on you while still letting you rapidly recover into the life-range where a DS is a threat. It is the single highest impact card I can conceive of against the top-deck in the format right now, and is quite good against a number of others. Berserk and Decay are just gravy.

    I still prefer UB for the stability and high resilience to Wasteland. But if I was going to run a splash, it would be green, and it would be for Sylvan Library first and foremost. Not even close.

  4. #64

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    The reason to splash is not Decay or Berserk, but Library. We have alternatives for the former two if need be without the splash, even if they are slightly inferior. For Library, there is no substitute--it allows you find threats and answers regularly and continuously to overload the answers of a control deck, and most importantly it turns your opponent's StPs into Recalls on you while still letting you rapidly recover into the life-range where a DS is a threat. It is the single highest impact card I can conceive of against the top-deck in the format right now, and is quite good against a number of others. Berserk and Decay are just gravy.

    I still prefer UB for the stability and high resilience to Wasteland. But if I was going to run a splash, it would be green, and it would be for Sylvan Library first and foremost. Not even close.
    Intresting point of view about splasing green mainly for Sylvan Library. While i agree that Library is super strong and unique card i think that there are some better sideboard options for control matchup exist right now. According to my feelings one of these options is Bitterblossom. That card is absolutely bomb and horrible nightmare for miracles and grixis (and not only for control, but actually for almost every fair deck in the format). Anyway thanks a lot for replies, i will continue testing with (and without) green splash, but currently i still prefer standart UB variant.

  5. #65

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    I've been advocating Sylvan Library since I picked this deck up 5 days after DRS-ban. There is still some reason for playing Decay, but I was stoked when I learned BUG was going to gain the ability to remove a JTMS/leyline/Gurmag/etc. via Assassin's Trophy. That has made BUG inferior to grixis for a very long time imo. It's still a tempo loss and twice as pricey as red blast, but its only for specific purposes, and probably only a 1-of main if not an entirely SB-only 2-MAYBE-3-of card.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  6. #66

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Listlik View Post
    Intresting point of view about splasing green mainly for Sylvan Library. While i agree that Library is super strong and unique card i think that there are some better sideboard options for control matchup exist right now. According to my feelings one of these options is Bitterblossom. That card is absolutely bomb and horrible nightmare for miracles and grixis (and not only for control, but actually for almost every fair deck in the format). Anyway thanks a lot for replies, i will continue testing with (and without) green splash, but currently i still prefer standart UB variant.
    Bitterblossom fills a similar role to Library, but it is not nearly as strong. They are 2-mana enchantments that create effective card advantage. There are two main differences that both come down to Sylvan Library giving you more control.
    1. Sylvan Library can reduce your life by 0, 4, or 8 every turn, while Bitterblossom is always doing 1 per turn. That means Sylvan Library is ideal for generating fast kills with DS, and also won't risk killing you later on. A late Library is still useful, while a late Bitterblossom can be a dangerous clock on yourself.

    2. Your cards have highly variable value, which means getting to choose the best of 3 is worth a lot more than one at random plus a 1/1 flyer.

    To be clear, I'm not saying Bitterblossom is bad, because it is in fact very good. But despite being so good, it is not in the same league as Library, because Library is one of the best cards ever printed.

    As for ATrophy versus Decay, I'm not sure ATrophy is where we want to be. We only have so many slots to devote to that type of card, and ensuring Counterbalance or Chalice blow up strikes me as much more important than killing a Jace. If Jace stuck and we couldn't kill him by attacking, I feel like such a game was probably already over.

  7. #67

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    how do you guys see Shadow going forward? The deck has incredible combo matchups but suffers in fair metas. It has problems against all Control lists like GControl, Miracles and also Lands and I dont know how to give Shadow more reach. I allready cutted the 2 Underground Seas for 1 Island and 1 Swamp to be better positioned against all Loam decks and it improved the deck a lot. In my sideboard I also try to advance to bad matchups like Elves and D&T with 2 Dread of Night and 2 Ratchet Bomb. I still dont know how to beat GControl and Miracles. Those decks are sooo OP in nowadays meta and tempo especially Shadow does not have any answers to it. Fatal Push and Snapcaster Mage is extremely powerful. Also Shadow is very light on removal and a single YP you can not handle that moment takes over an entire game.

    Do you have any experience to improve the matchups? Maybe running more Stubborn Denial against removal? Maybe adding 1-2 TNN to get around spot removal and stuff like Maze of Iths?

  8. #68

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    how do you guys see Shadow going forward? The deck has incredible combo matchups but suffers in fair metas. It has problems against all Control lists like GControl, Miracles and also Lands and I dont know how to give Shadow more reach. I allready cutted the 2 Underground Seas for 1 Island and 1 Swamp to be better positioned against all Loam decks and it improved the deck a lot. In my sideboard I also try to advance to bad matchups like Elves and D&T with 2 Dread of Night and 2 Ratchet Bomb. I still dont know how to beat GControl and Miracles. Those decks are sooo OP in nowadays meta and tempo especially Shadow does not have any answers to it. Fatal Push and Snapcaster Mage is extremely powerful. Also Shadow is very light on removal and a single YP you can not handle that moment takes over an entire game.

    Do you have any experience to improve the matchups? Maybe running more Stubborn Denial against removal? Maybe adding 1-2 TNN to get around spot removal and stuff like Maze of Iths?
    What the anti-control "packadge" do you use in your sideboard? I feel myself pretty ok against control decks in post side games. To beat grixis or miracles in first game you have to make wild tempo plays every turn until victory, but with sideboard options these games become more 50/50 and depended on your skill and knowledge of match ups.

  9. #69

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Well, Death's Shadow is under radar right now (even missed the 5-0 leagues report!) and that is very frustrated to me, bacause i relly enjoy the deck for its unique concept and for skill demand playstyle. What are the main problems for deck? I think control archetypes and chalice. And, unfortunetely, control decks and chalice decks are very popular nowdays both in online and paper Magic tournaments. To solve those problems we need to adapt not sideboard but mainboard to fight with our nightmares. What to do exactly? What are you thoughts? I would like to change some cards and will test changes in near future.

    To beat control:

    1) Maindeck 2 copies of Bitterblossom. Yeah, this card can be very blank and garbage in late game, when we are at 5 hp or so, but with all others substitutions Bitterblossom can become a very strong options in almost every game's stagies. What are these substitutions? They include the cutting some pieces of our own damage (reanimates and 1 copy of Street Wraith) to become more resistence to burn spells, combat demage and, of course, to Bitteblossom's damage.

    2) Throwing away one copy of Force of Will and replacing Denials with Hymns. I hate FoW. It is so painfull, clumsy and stupid card. Sure, it saved my life sometimes against fast combo decks, but i guess that we are very favored against fast combo even without playset of FoW. In fair matches FoW is just a "lose an advantage" card. i better unclude another removal spell or threat instead of that card.

    To beat a chalice:

    1) Two copies of Reaninmate are out. My main idea of fighting the chalice strategies is decrease the amount of 1 cmc spells and replace those cards by new 2 and 3 cmc threats like Bitterblossom and True-Name Skill and Hymns. Also i would include in the maindeck 1 copy of diabolic edict to feel more comfortable against opponent's TNN and Marit Lage. Why Reanimates? Because i do not find these cards super usefull in current metageme. Strom and Depths laugh at reanimate, SnS is too fast and 4 of 8 its creatures you will not be able to reanimate. BR reanimator? Ok, but only if you survive his fast twist, plus there are not a lot of Reanimators nowdays. Against Miracles reanimte is a pretty dead card, against grixis very ok, but what about TNN and Bitteblossom instead of reanimating Death's Shadow into Snap+removal?

    In conclusion:

    Out: 1 Street Wraith, 1 Fow, 2 Reanimate, 2 Denial (pretty questionable)
    In: 1 TNN, 1 Diabolic Edict, 2 Hymn to Tourach (instead of denial's), 2 Bitterblossom.

    I hope that the deck will become more competiteve in current meta, yes by loosing it's explosivness, but obtaining more stability. I want to dedicate a December to test new build of favourite deck. Your thoughts?
    Last edited by Listlik; 12-04-2018 at 08:34 AM.

  10. #70

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    I'll add some thoughts:

    Bitterblossom
    I haven't specifically tested this in Shadow and I know it has been in the sideboard of some well-placing lists, but I am unimpressed with this card. I have been testing it in non-Shadow UB Delver and find it underwhelming. I usually board it out against combo and have not had it be great against the two premier control decks of Grixis and Miracles. Miracles has sweepers, Council's Judgment, and Disenchant. Grixis can stave it off with Liliana, the Last Hope or just race it with Bolt-Snap-Bolt (two things I have actually lost to after resolving Bitterblossom). I often find the Faeries an inadequate clock to pressure opposing Planeswakers as well. However, I'd like to hear opinions from those who have actually played it in Shadow.

    Hymn to Tourach
    Obviously great versus reactive decks and most combo decks so can't argue with bringing it in the main. Especially since it is much easier to cast with Wasteland seeming less prevalent.

    Reanimate
    I agree that this has become less powerful lately. Now that opponents expect it, Reanimator can play around it by binning a guy and reanimating it in the same turn. I also feel that Grixis is packing more Edicts which can deal with a reanimated Street Wraith. The ceiling seems like it has gotten lower and the floor is do nothing.

  11. #71

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Thank your for the reply. After some days of testing a new version i have found Bitteblossom is a pretty doubt option for the maindeck. Another card that i really want to try is Baleful Strix. I will play with two copies at the beginning.

  12. #72
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Doing things like incorporating Hymn, Strix, and Bitterblossom should start sounding like you're turning your deck into bad Grixis Jammy Jams. Add green, get Library x2 and you'll cut down on the auto-losses to Tundra. Structurally, this deck isn't ever going to have a great miracles matchup (unless heavier mana denial, like basic Plains killing with Trophy, is built around), but it should be fine vs Stoneblade.

  13. #73

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Doing things like incorporating Hymn, Strix, and Bitterblossom should start sounding like you're turning your deck into bad Grixis Jammy Jams. Add green, get Library x2 and you'll cut down on the auto-losses to Tundra. Structurally, this deck isn't ever going to have a great miracles matchup (unless heavier mana denial, like basic Plains killing with Trophy, is built around), but it should be fine vs Stoneblade.
    The third colour is an option, but i do not feel comfortable with BUG variant and want to concentrate my efforts on upgrading classic UB Shadow.

  14. #74

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    honestly adding a third color to Shadow is not a problem at all since its allready playing only dual lands in its Ub version and you die to Blood Moon anyway. I found that playing 4 Watery Grave, 1 Island and 1 Swamp the best way because you have a lprotection from Wastelands, Blood Moon and B2B and also give the deck a little more stability overall for a little less explosiveness which I think is okay. I still think the positioning of Death's Shadow is very weird, its pretty good against combo decks but has troubles sometimes with fast decks AND control decks, also on the other hand it has this complete nuts draw on the play by just outclassing any other decks the way old Grixis Delver used to be with Shaman, Pyromancer and Probe. So its a super tuned Delver deck in which Delver is often not the best creature (again like old Grixis Delver) and on the other hand the deck is just sometimes poop by not finding threats and dying to Fatal Push, Snapcaster and Bolt.

    My idea is to give the deck a little more reach but I dont know how. The best way of gaining reach would be some more resilient creature which is not affected by spot removal like TNN, maybe some additional game plan next to Shadow which is possible with Delver, Thoughtseize and Reanimate or just stomp over chump blockers with Trample through a Berserk or maybe Temur Battle Rage. Also Lightning Bolt is a card which would suit perfectly into the deck but would make the manabase much more vulnerable. But the deck feels extremely underpowered to a resolved TNN, Bitterblossom or YP which allready generated 3-4 tokens and there needs to be a way to fight that imho.

  15. #75

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    I found that playing 4 Watery Grave, 1 Island and 1 Swamp the best way
    Agree. From the beginning i play with 2 basics, 3 graves, 3 wasteland and 8 (recently 7) fetch lands. I feel myself ok without U seas.

  16. #76

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Miracles and Chalice decks are always going to be hard to beat. If you want to focus on these, splashing green is the best way: it gives Library and Decay. The nearest substitutes without splashing are Bitterblossom and Bomb, which are good but not in the same league.

    As an alternative, Ben Friedman has been advocating new design with additional control elements over Delver. I'm not crazy about this plan, but it is likely a lot stronger against heavy control decks and Chalice. In exchange, it probably gives up points versus Tempo decks, light control decks (DnT/Maverick), and combo (due to the lack of pressure), but these are all marginal to begin with (the former two being very difficult to beat without heavy sideboarding, the last being almost trivial).

    I wouldn't worry too much though. It looks like the absolute dominance of control has started the pendulum swinging back towards combo, and DSD is quite good against most of those decks. It might soon be the deck's time again.

  17. #77

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post

    As an alternative, [URL="http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/38050_Standard-Modern-Legacy-My-Honest-SCG-CON-Deck-Endorsements.html"]Ben Friedman has been advocating new design with additional control elements over Delver.
    It is very intresting, baby Jace is one of my favorite card in Magic, but also it is very questionable and debatable. Time will tell the truth about a power of including Jace and some other changes, but i do not believe in his build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    I wouldn't worry too much though. It looks like the absolute dominance of control has started the pendulum swinging back towards combo, and DSD is quite good against most of those decks. It might soon be the deck's time again.
    Actually a meta is full of combo decks for some time already, and there are not a lot of DS decks beating combo during the period of combo rise (in online and paper). I think players are sceptical about the deck. They choose Grixis delver, Rug or UR to be their main tempo option, leaving ds a role of a bad delver deck, which popularity was determined by its cheapness.

  18. #78

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Made it to the ChannelFireball 4k this weekend:


    Round 1 v. ANT (CyrusCG) (0-2)
    Game 1: Spoiler alert: Cyrus is good at ANT. I have a good hand with two Thoughtseize into double Shadow, and quickly threaten lethal but Cyrus untaps and uses LED for blue to dig with a handful of cantrips and finds what he needs. Game over.
    Game 2: I have a decent hand with Delver, Daze, and Surgical. Cyrus plays turn 1 Preordain, which I aggressively Daze. Turns out he just needed it out of his hand and goes Lotus Petal, LED, Ritual, tutor for Empty and make 14 Goblins. I need to top deck EE now. I do not. Game over.
    -1 Death’s Shadow, -2 Fatal Push, -2 Dismember, -2 Reanimate
    +3 Surgical Extraction (maybe too many), +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Engineered Explosives

    Round 2 v. Lands (2-0)
    Game 1: I am pretty effectively able to keep applying pressure and use Wasteland to keep pushing his Marit Lage out a turn until I can present lethal.
    Game 2: Similar to Game 1 I apply good pressure but this time I also have surgical for Depths and then a Spellbomb to prevent him from Loaming back a Maze. The Dismember I left in comes in handy and lets me get a tracker out of the way.
    -1 Dismember, -1 Thoughtseize, -2 Fatal Push, -2 Reanimate
    +3 Surgical Extraction, +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Diabolic Edict, +1 Engineered Explosives

    Round 3 v. Jeskai Legends (2-0)
    Game 1: I apply enough pressure and disruption to win before he gets his more powerful cards online. He almost claws back with a clutch Supreme Verdict, but he is at 1 and I can Reanimate a Delver for lethal.
    Game 2: I engineer a resolved Liliana, the Last Hope and start going heavy on the creature recursion to apply pressure while he has a sort of slow hand.
    -2 Fatal Push, -2 Reanimate
    +2 Liliana, the Last Hope, +2 Hymn to Tourach

    Round 4 v. UW Delver (2-0)
    Game 1: A very intense game of back and forth where the advantage swung between us like 20 times. Eventually I draw enough threats in a row to pressure him enough so that he has to keep chumping with SFM and can’t really use his powerful equipment.
    Game 2: I engineer a turn where I resolve Liliana, the Last Hope on an empty board and start ticking up. He can’t find an answer in time and even though he has wasted me off any land at this point, the emblem prompts a concession.
    -2 Daze, -1 Thoughtseize
    +2 Liliana, the Last Hope, +1 Diabolic Edict

    Round 5 v. UR Delver (1-1-1)
    Game 1: I manage to keep my lie high enough and have enough countermagic to not die to burn and my bigger creatures just get there.
    Game 2: A very close game where he has me at 6 or 7 with a flipped Delver. I figure out a line where I can Reanimate his Delver, take one hit and go to 3, then ensure my Reanimated Delver flips with countermagic back up all while beating in with Angler, almost ensuring the win. Unfortunately, this is the one Delver flip I miss all tournament (at least that I notice) and I speed through to draw step and throw away the game.
    Game 3: I am pretty far ahead but don’t have countermagic for Bridge. I have no out to it but leave my Delvers unflipped and hope he gets stuck with a Force of Will or some other uncastable card in hand. I have Liliana to control the board and end up drawing a lot of countermagic to fend off his burn. However, neither of us get there and it goes to a draw.
    -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Street Wraith
    +2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Engineered Explosives (wish it was Ratchet Bomb), +1 Diabolic Edict

    Round 6 v. ANT (2-0)
    Game 1: Double Thoughtseize and quick clock work this time.
    Game 2: I Thoughtseize and see a hand of two Brainstorm, lands, and a Cabal Ritual. I take one Brainstorm. I then Force the second Brainstorm into Hymn and he is at one or two cards. Angler then closes it out.
    -2 Fatal Push, -2 Dismember, -2 Reanimate
    +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Engineered Explosives

    Round 7 v. Moon Stompy (0-2)
    You can watch the match here.
    This is a potential win and in to top 8 depending on breakers against EJ (no relation).
    Game 1: At the time I didn’t know what he was on and I snap Daze his turn 1 Chalice, which he has the SSG to pay for. I then Force the Chalice. In retrospect, and especially if I knew he was on Moon, I should have just let Chalice resolve. Delver plus Ancient Tomb might have got there if I had Force backup. Still, hard to beat all those Bridges and Chandras and Chalices. Note, originally I was playing to the long shot of wasting him down to 2 mana and trapping cards in his hand to win through Bridge but he drew plenty of mana.
    Game 2: I make a pretty bad error of forgetting in the moment that Proliferate deals with multiple Chalices and waste a Force on the seconds one. After that, I just don’t have enough cards to deal with all his must-answer cards. Note, I did have 2 Dismember in the deck as an out to Magus. This is a bad match up, but doesn’t feel unwinnable if I played a better or got luckier. Unfortunately, my opponent just misses top 8 on breakers.
    -2 Fatal Push, -2 Reanimate, -1 Preordain
    +2 Throne of Geth, +1 Engineered Explosives (wish this and Throne were Ratchet Bombs), +2 Hymn to Tourach

    I still managed to cash and had a good time. Thanks to CFB for running a good tournament and streaming it. Happy to see a legacy event reach capacity despite all the doom and gloom about the format and paper magic lately.

  19. #79
    Member

    Join Date

    Oct 2015
    Location

    SWFL
    Posts

    72

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Great write-up, thanks aedrew. I honestly dread the red prison matchups, I seem to be on the losing end of a 3 mana permanent every game. The Eldrazi versions are no cakewalk either. Here's what I've been playing with lately:

    Threats (12)
    4 Delver
    4 Death’s Shadow
    3 Gurmag Angler
    1 True-Name Nemesis

    Disruption (16)
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    1 Stubborn Denial
    3 Dismember
    4 Thoughtseize

    Velocity (14)
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Preordain

    Manabase (18)
    9 Assorted Fetches
    3 Watery Grave
    2 Underground Sea
    4 Wasteland

    26 Instant/Sorc
    24+1 Blue Cards

    Sideboard
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Reanimate
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Winter Orb
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    3 Diabolic Edict
    2 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Lili, Last Hope
    1 Toxic Deluge

    This version plays decently through Chalice with both removal and threats at 2/3+ cmc. The removal count is really low at 3, but you can often outsize/race other decks playing to the board. Dismember has been excellent and the ability to cast it off Wasteland comes up a surprising amount for me. The 3 edicts in the side let you interact with anything going way over the top (marit lage, griselbrand). I was playing 2 Flusterstorm for a while but I honestly just prefer to TS+Hymn people proactively and try to end the game.

    I like a lot of what Ben Friedman was doing with his Delver-less version, but I love flipping some Delvers so I don't see that changing anytime soon. It also puts your blue card count awkwardly low for FoW (21?). Anyway, nice to see a little discussion on the archetype at least.

  20. #80
    Member
    Fallen_Empire's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2016
    Location

    Seattle, WA
    Posts

    196

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    I'm considering brewing up a list that runs copies of hunted horror and toxic deluge main instead of delver & street wraith. Has anyone else been down this path?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)