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Thread: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

  1. #41

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    What you guys think about 2 Bitterblossoms in the sideboard, I can see in the last few weeks that it's gaining popularity.

    I am thinking of buying 2 for my sideboard but I am not 100% sure. I guess the main reason is beating Grixis Control?

    It's the same with Liliana's Defeat, I think this is also mainly for Grixis Control.

    It makes sense to create a good anti Grixis Control sideboard seeing the current meta, what do you guys think of this current development.

    Thanks! :)

  2. #42

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    I agree we need to think about the Grixis matchup, but I've had a difficult time finding good things to say about BB. It's really slow and overall decreases tempo. The lifeloss is uncontrollable other than destroying it yourself, which is probably card disadvantage, as well as a waste of a removal spell. However, the lifeloss isn't in large enough amounts to make it useful in that regard, either. I wish Greed were cheaper to cast.

  3. #43

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    I am currently testing this list:

    Creatures [14]
    2 Gurmag Angler
    4 Death's Shadow
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Street Wraith

    Instants [17]
    2 Dismember
    3 Fatal Push
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    Sorceries [13]
    1 Preordain
    2 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Reanimate
    4 Ponder
    4 Thoughtseize

    Lands [16]
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Wasteland
    4 Watery Grave

    Sideboard [15]
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Dread of Night
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Liliana's Defeat
    2 Bitterblossom

    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28624&iddeck=235423

    I like the main, but not really sure about sideboard, I am more thinking something allong the lines of this:

    2 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Dread of Night
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Dark Blast
    1 Liliana's Defeat
    1 Marsh Casualties

    Any thoughts? :)

  4. #44

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    One thing I'll say is that I really dislike the 3 MB Push with 1 SB Darkblast I've seen in a few lists. I prefer to just put 2 and 1 in the main. In my opinion, Darkblast is a bit too low impact to be a great SB card, and most decks with Push targets also have good Darkblast targets (often the same ones). This frees the SB slot, has very little utility cost, and even gives you some advantage in longer games where Darkblast can help to separate cantrip chaff while keeping troublesome blockers like Strix and Mom off the board.

  5. #45

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    One thing I'll say is that I really dislike the 3 MB Push with 1 SB Darkblast I've seen in a few lists. I prefer to just put 2 and 1 in the main. In my opinion, Darkblast is a bit too low impact to be a great SB card, and most decks with Push targets also have good Darkblast targets (often the same ones). This frees the SB slot, has very little utility cost, and even gives you some advantage in longer games where Darkblast can help to separate cantrip chaff while keeping troublesome blockers like Strix and Mom off the board.
    This is a fair point. I'm not one to even play fatal push (just my playstyle, don't read too much into it), but I would agree with this for lists that do.

  6. #46

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Yesterday I played around 4 hours against Grixis Control. In the end is was something like 3-7 for the Grixis player. I felt like the beginning is strong but I can’t really close the game in the end. Sideboarding helps but I still feels it not in my favor. I player this list, it’s close to my previous post.

    Creatures [14]
    2 Gurmag Angler
    4 Death's Shadow
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Street Wraith

    Instants [17]
    2 Dismember
    3 Fatal Push
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    Sorceries [13]
    1 Preordain
    2 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Reanimate
    4 Ponder
    4 Thoughtseize

    Lands [16]
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Wasteland
    4 Watery Grave

    Sideboard [15]
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Dread of Night
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Liliana's Defeat
    1 Marsh Casualties
    2 Bitterblossom

    I sideboarded like this: -4 Fow -1 Ponder +2 Liliana +2 Bitterblossom 1+ Liliana’s Defeat.

    After sideboarding it felt a bit better, I quick Bitterblossom can be a winner and thats the same as a quicky Liliana. But still it doens’t really feel in my favor.

    My opponent told me he was less scared of this list because of the lack of 4 Wastelands. I can go back to the more traditional 18 lands version without playing the Hymns main. I will test that version tonight against him and see if thats better of worse.

    I think it’s importent to have a decent game againt Grixis Control, but I am not sure what rout to take. And I also need to keep in mind to beat Death and Taxes and Miracles as the other tier 1 decks.

    What do you guys think to beat a control heavy meta with Death’s Shadows? :)

  7. #47

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Winter orb beats control. Great with daze and increases the value of stubborn denial

  8. #48

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    In response to Trophy being on the map I'd also like to mention the possibility to play basics.

    Even before Trophy was a thing I included one of each basic in order to beat the many Loam/B2B/Blood Moon decks in my local meta and they've won me numerous games while not being a huge cost whatsoever. At least in straight up UB lists I think they should be considered. I'm playing 8 Fetch, 3 Watery Grave, 1 Usea, 1 Swamp, 1 Island as my 14 and I'll keep doing so.

  9. #49

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    In response to Trophy being on the map I'd also like to mention the possibility to play basics.

    Even before Trophy was a thing I included one of each basic in order to beat the many Loam/B2B/Blood Moon decks in my local meta and they've won me numerous games while not being a huge cost whatsoever. At least in straight up UB lists I think they should be considered. I'm playing 8 Fetch, 3 Watery Grave, 1 Usea, 1 Swamp, 1 Island as my 14 and I'll keep doing so.
    Good point. I'm working a single island in to my list (land 19) so I can have an out to blood moon in the form of BEB post-board.

  10. #50

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by bio-dwarf View Post
    What do you guys think to beat a control heavy meta with Death’s Shadows? :)
    I agree that Wasteland is good to punish their clunkiness and keep your Dazes live.

    Another suggestion is to cut Fatal Push post-board. It is your worst removal spell against them because it can't hit Gurmag Angler and you don't want too many reactive cards as you really want to pressure them and win before they can out-grind you with card advantage. Two Dismember and a Liliana's Defeat are probably good enough, but you could consider bringing in Diabolic Edict, specially if you suspect a True-Name Nemesis..

    I'd rather leave in some Force of Will even though it is bad against their discard because you really want to overwhelm them by unloading your hand while they are stuck with cards they can't yet cast. In addition, you can use Force of Will to ensure your game winning cards of Liliana, the Last Hope or a reanimated Street Wraith can do their job.

  11. #51

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    I think I will settle for this list for the coming tournament Sunday after a lot of testing.

    Creatures [14]
    2 Gurmag Angler
    4 Death's Shadow
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Street Wraith

    Instants [17]
    2 Dismember
    2 Fatal Push
    2 Stubborn Denial
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    Sorceries [13]
    1 Preordain
    2 Reanimate
    3 Ponder
    4 Thoughtseize

    Planeswalkers [1]
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope

    Lands [17]
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Scalding Tarn
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Underground Sea
    3 Wasteland
    3 Watery Grave

    Sideboard [15]
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Dread of Night
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Marsh Casualties
    2 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Bitterblossom

    I changed the Following:

    Main Deck:
    -2 Hymns
    -1 Ponder
    -1 Fatal Push
    -1 Watery Grave

    +2 Stubborn Denial (I think this is more all around then the 2 Hymns main board)
    +1 Liliana, the Last Hope (This card can win the control matchup on it's on, I think it's good to have on pre sideboard.)
    +1 Wasteland (2 Wastelands was ok but more Wastelands help in the control matchup)
    +1 Verdant Catacombs (Having 17 lands in the decks feels like the right number, 16 was a bit light and I don't think 18 is necessary, and playing Lili main board needs atleast 1 more land)

    Sideboard:
    -1 Liliana, the Last Hope (Went to the main deck)
    -1 Liliana's Defeat (Needed to make room for the Hymns)
    -1 Flusterstorm (Wil be replaced for Dread of Night)

    +2 Hymns
    +1 Dread of Night (1 Dread of Night felt a bit light, and this card works well for Death and Taxes and Miracles which are both Tier1)

    I am thinking of maybe adding the Liliana's Defeat back to the sideboard but I am not sure what to remove for it.

    I will keep in mind to keep some Fows in against Grixis Control en removing the Fatal Pushes post sideboard.

    If some one has any tips ideas or advice let me know, or else this will be my list for Sunday! Ill try to remember how it went and write a little report :)

    Thanks for all the help so far! :D

  12. #52

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    So I ended at a 50 player tournament at 5-8 and I am really happy with the result :)

    Here is the list: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20252&d=332253&f=LE

    Live stream of QF: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/320096195

    I lost in the QF, after some analysis of the footage I saw what I did wrong. Round 2 I put the Bitterblossom on top to protect it instead of a land. His Hymn hit my land and then I was to far behind to win. Round 3 I should have shuffled with the first ponder to find a land, I did it with the 2nd one but didn't find a land and got mana screwed. Offcourse it also variants, I could easily found a land with the 2nd Ponder or he couldn't have a Wasteland, but he did so I got beaten round 3.

    I also did some minor errors, returning a Underground Sea instead of a Watery Grave with Daze and other minor things.

    The one thing I am thinking to change from my current list is to put Lili main back in the sideboard and play an addition Wasteland. It won my a game but I am not sure if this is the right place for Lili pre sideboard. I am also replacing the preordain with a 4th Ponder. I just want to dig deeper.

    If you see things I could do differently or better I want to know :) I would like to improve my game.

    I will post a small report soon.

    Thanks for all the help! :)

  13. #53

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Hey guys, I recently built up the main deck stock list of shadow delver. Mainly because I already own a straight UB reanimator and it shares the majority of its components (mana base, counter suite, cantrip suite, discard suite). I'm still in the process on building the sideboard and would like to ask how essential Liliana, the Last Hope. I understand that Liliana is boarded in primarily for the control match up, but if for some reason I can't / don't want to invest in her, what would be my best options? I've seen lists running Winter Orb, which doesn't hurt us as much since we can operate on a single land. I've also seen list that try Infernal Contract, since this will be boarded in the control match up, we can realistically produce the necessary amount of mana. Would you say these are realistic options?

  14. #54

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by jethstriker View Post
    Hey guys, I recently built up the main deck stock list of shadow delver. Mainly because I already own a straight UB reanimator and it shares the majority of its components (mana base, counter suite, cantrip suite, discard suite). I'm still in the process on building the sideboard and would like to ask how essential Liliana, the Last Hope. I understand that Liliana is boarded in primarily for the control match up, but if for some reason I can't / don't want to invest in her, what would be my best options? I've seen lists running Winter Orb, which doesn't hurt us as much since we can operate on a single land. I've also seen list that try Infernal Contract, since this will be boarded in the control match up, we can realistically produce the necessary amount of mana. Would you say these are realistic options?
    Liliana is good versus control but also against swarm decks like elves. You don’t get that kind of versatility in any other card. That being said I believe that winterorb is great in any delver list.

  15. #55

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Unfortunately, in my experience, I can say your StP matchups (Miracles, DnT and other Blade varients) will be very difficult to win without her. I would find a way to pick up one, or more preferably, two.

    Edit: definitely play the singleton Winter Orb. Totally worth it.

  16. #56

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Liliana helps to hold the ground against creature-based decks like DnT, persist against grindy decks like Grixis Control (where recurring your threats and killing Strix are both important), and provide an alternate and difficult-to-answer win condition against decks like Miracles. Basically, she's important against around half the metagame, enough so that some builds have played a copy in the main or up to three in the SB. There is no other card that fills all these roles, which means to work around her will require a significant (and probably inferior) SB redesign.

    I strongly suggest you not try to avoid acquiring at least two LtLH. Her overall impact is greater than any other SB card we typically run.

  17. #57

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    I am usually a 4c-Loam player, but given that I mainly play Shadow in Modern, I am keen on trying it out in Legacy. My only concern are the 2 Underground Seas: Is it reasonable to play 2 basics instead? Or let's say I have access to 1 U-Sea, would you rather play Island or Swamp?

  18. #58

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper_ion View Post
    I am usually a 4c-Loam player, but given that I mainly play Shadow in Modern, I am keen on trying it out in Legacy. My only concern are the 2 Underground Seas: Is it reasonable to play 2 basics instead? Or let's say I have access to 1 U-Sea, would you rather play Island or Swamp?
    This has been discussed in depth earlier and on the Discord. Ben Friedman directly advocated the use of Basics as well. Only lists without Basics have put up top results, but I'm not convinced that's due to inherent weakness as much as the best players typically owning Seas and gravitating towards lists that have already done well.

    The short version is that you can play 0, 1, or 2 Seas. Some of us have had plenty of success with Basics, as they help against PtE, ATrophy, B2B, and Moon. They're mixed against Wasteland, as they protect only one color at a time while making the other more vulnerable. If you play one or more Basics, I strongly suggest you run a 15th color-producing Land to ensure you have at least 14 of each color. I have generally seen the Basic Island given precedence over the Basic Swamp, but I've seen at least one person disagree with that assessment. Also, if you run both, you may complicate your fetchland configuration, since only Polluted Delta can get either basic.

    Personally, I run one of each, and 15 color-producing Lands in total.

  19. #59
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    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    This has been discussed in depth earlier and on the Discord. Ben Friedman directly advocated the use of Basics as well. Only lists without Basics have put up top results, but I'm not convinced that's due to inherent weakness as much as the best players typically owning Seas and gravitating towards lists that have already done well.

    The short version is that you can play 0, 1, or 2 Seas. Some of us have had plenty of success with Basics, as they help against PtE, ATrophy, B2B, and Moon. They're mixed against Wasteland, as they protect only one color at a time while making the other more vulnerable. If you play one or more Basics, I strongly suggest you run a 15th color-producing Land to ensure you have at least 14 of each color. I have generally seen the Basic Island given precedence over the Basic Swamp, but I've seen at least one person disagree with that assessment. Also, if you run both, you may complicate your fetchland configuration, since only Polluted Delta can get either basic.

    Personally, I run one of each, and 15 color-producing Lands in total.

    I didn’t see him “advocate” basics in any of the articles or the podcast I heard, however; I did see him state that it’d be a decision that was meta dependent. The majority consensus overall by what i’ve Observed is that it is slightly less optimal overall, however; again it depends on your meta. If that is the only barrier for entry into the format, go for it! The legacy community is always looking to expand its player base and with tight play and much practice, the difference in two land slots is probably negligible. If you really love the format and want to make the decision to invest in duals, you can always do that down the road. Heck, in the right meta burn can be good; I’d argue that shadow with basics fairs much better overall, especially if you have the higher priced sideboard cards already as well like Liliana for the tough matchups like pile.

  20. #60

    Re: [DTB] UB Death's Shadow

    Is splashing worth to be done? Currently i am playing standart two colour list and feel very comfortable with it, but i want to ask players who prefer UBg version of Death's Shadow. Is Decay so cool? I am talking only about an advantage which green colour gives to our UB deck. In my mind decay is first of all an ultimate answer for chalice, but in other situations it is just a not the best removal card (yes, it can destroy Moon, BtB, 3 cmc Planswalker, Counterbalance, Bridge - but all of theese bombs did not force me to feel myself super frustrated while my online testing with ub version). They are pretty slow, not very popular or even not so dangerous. That is why i consider decay only as a chalice breaker. And am i correct when declare that green splash is worth only for chalice heavy metagame?

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